Switch Theme:

Playing Averages Instead of Dice Rolls  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Chosen Baal Sec Youngblood




Has anyone played averages instead of dice rolls?
By this I mean if you you have BS 4+ then 50% of your shots hit, no rolling dice.
I feel like this would work well for 40k and eliminate a lot of the luck involved. Allowing for greater strategic list building and play.
Players can carry a calculator instead of 200 dice.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/08 22:51:32


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




This is a bad idea. Do YOU want to keep tracking of the models that suffered 3.5 wounds and the ones that further suffer only 0.7 and stuff like that?

Nah I'm good.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps







I've thought about it, and if I found a like minded mathematical type, I'd certainly give it a try. With the right ap, it would be easy, and in the current Game of a Billion Dice, it would work pretty well. There are hardly any important single rolls any more (which I don't love actually, since they put more suspense into the game).
   
Made in ca
Steady Space Marine Vet Sergeant





Canada

Biel Tan says no. So do all the characters with reroll auras.



Gets along better with animals... Go figure. 
   
Made in us
Oozing Plague Marine Terminator




In My Lab

 darkcloak wrote:
Biel Tan says no. So do all the characters with reroll auras.


That's not that hard to math out.

X+ rerolling 1s is the number of sides that are successes multiplied by 7 out of 36. So 6+ is 7/36, 5+ is 14/36, etc. etc.

I did that math in my head. Add a calculator, and it's easy.

That being said, I'm not a big fan of this. How would you deal with the reroll stratagem? Or what about when I have only one shot?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan






There is a thread thats not THAT old that was about exactly this. There was a near universal hate for the idea.

   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps







I think I wrote one a few years back which was based it on old wargaming tables. The idea there was to speed up the game. I'll freely admit it is not a popular idea.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Even putting aside the logistical problems you'd have to address, I think this idea would still run into problems. For one thing, you'd have to account for eliminate those special rules that do depend on extreme good/bad luck. For instance, how do you account for...

*Plasma? Do you just average out the number of dead models each time you fire a salvo making overcharging go from risky to literally suicidal? What if there's only a single plasma guy in a unit? Do you just round up and make him immune to overheating? Round down and guarantee the first overcharge shot kills him each time?

* Cheap units. I'm thinking lhameans here at 18 points per unit. On average, her shooting won't kill anything. So do you round up and make her an 18 point model that auto-wounds something each time she shoots, or do you take away her shooting entirely?

*Shokk Attak Gun. Lots of wonky possible rolls. You'd have to rewrite the mechanic for how it works.

*Pretty much any ork shooting, actually. For their points, most ork dakka doesn't average much damage, BUT they have the potential spike their damage into cost efficiency with a lucky roll. Lootas, for instance, are meh if you average two shots and hit with 1/3rd of them. But that one turn you roll a 3 for the number of shots and then hit with more than half of them? Completely different experience.

* "Crit" mechanics. How many AP-3 attacks are shuriken weapons assumed to generate? How many mortal wounds do flesh gauntlets do?

* Smite. Sure, you'll average 2 mortal wounds, but how do you account for the rare time you do 6 instead?

*Perils in general actually. If my math is right, you generally have a 1/18th chance of suffering perils. How do you account for that?

*Charging out of deepstrike. Am I just ham-fistedly only allowed to automatically make a charge with 1/3rd of my units or something?

Diceless games are all well and good, but you'd have to redesign 40k from the ground up to make this work. You'd need to overhaul most of the core rules. You'd have to recost everything to represent the lack of damage spiking. You'd probably want to change the damage resolution mechanics in general to streamline them for a diceless format. Etc.

And then, if you did all of that, you'd be that much more likely to turn 40k into a "solved" game. Having stripped away much of the statistical obfuscation and uncertainty, you'd be left with a scenario where players could much more reliably predict the flow of the game before-hand. Currently, I can look at my opponent's army, determine that his mathematical averages beat mine even if I maneuver as intelligently as possible, and then still come out ahead provided the dice are on my side. After all, he might always roll a bunch of ones. But as soon as you can reliably determine how much damage a gunline will put out each turn, you can pretty much just math out the first couple of turns of the game and then call the game without playing a single turn.
   
Made in us
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan






Wyldhunt wrote:
Even putting aside the logistical problems you'd have to address, I think this idea would still run into problems. For one thing, you'd have to account for eliminate those special rules that do depend on extreme good/bad luck. For instance, how do you account for...

*Plasma? Do you just average out the number of dead models each time you fire a salvo making overcharging go from risky to literally suicidal? What if there's only a single plasma guy in a unit? Do you just round up and make him immune to overheating? Round down and guarantee the first overcharge shot kills him each time?

* Cheap units. I'm thinking lhameans here at 18 points per unit. On average, her shooting won't kill anything. So do you round up and make her an 18 point model that auto-wounds something each time she shoots, or do you take away her shooting entirely?

*Shokk Attak Gun. Lots of wonky possible rolls. You'd have to rewrite the mechanic for how it works.

*Pretty much any ork shooting, actually. For their points, most ork dakka doesn't average much damage, BUT they have the potential spike their damage into cost efficiency with a lucky roll. Lootas, for instance, are meh if you average two shots and hit with 1/3rd of them. But that one turn you roll a 3 for the number of shots and then hit with more than half of them? Completely different experience.

* "Crit" mechanics. How many AP-3 attacks are shuriken weapons assumed to generate? How many mortal wounds do flesh gauntlets do?

* Smite. Sure, you'll average 2 mortal wounds, but how do you account for the rare time you do 6 instead?

*Perils in general actually. If my math is right, you generally have a 1/18th chance of suffering perils. How do you account for that?

*Charging out of deepstrike. Am I just ham-fistedly only allowed to automatically make a charge with 1/3rd of my units or something?

Diceless games are all well and good, but you'd have to redesign 40k from the ground up to make this work. You'd need to overhaul most of the core rules. You'd have to recost everything to represent the lack of damage spiking. You'd probably want to change the damage resolution mechanics in general to streamline them for a diceless format. Etc.

And then, if you did all of that, you'd be that much more likely to turn 40k into a "solved" game. Having stripped away much of the statistical obfuscation and uncertainty, you'd be left with a scenario where players could much more reliably predict the flow of the game before-hand. Currently, I can look at my opponent's army, determine that his mathematical averages beat mine even if I maneuver as intelligently as possible, and then still come out ahead provided the dice are on my side. After all, he might always roll a bunch of ones. But as soon as you can reliably determine how much damage a gunline will put out each turn, you can pretty much just math out the first couple of turns of the game and then call the game without playing a single turn.


Aaaaaand.... /thread.

   
Made in au
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle





hilty26 wrote:
Has anyone played averages instead of dice rolls?
By this I mean if you you have BS 4+ then 50% of your shots hit, no rolling dice.
I feel like this would work well for 40k and eliminate a lot of the luck involved. Allowing for greater strategic list building and play.
Players can carry a calculator instead of 200 dice.


Why collect an army then? Just print out a spreadsheet, compare it to your opponent's spreadsheet and shake hands.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Lance845 wrote:
Wyldhunt wrote:
Even putting aside the logistical problems you'd have to address, I think this idea would still run into problems. For one thing, you'd have to account for eliminate those special rules that do depend on extreme good/bad luck. For instance, how do you account for...

*Plasma? Do you just average out the number of dead models each time you fire a salvo making overcharging go from risky to literally suicidal? What if there's only a single plasma guy in a unit? Do you just round up and make him immune to overheating? Round down and guarantee the first overcharge shot kills him each time?

* Cheap units. I'm thinking lhameans here at 18 points per unit. On average, her shooting won't kill anything. So do you round up and make her an 18 point model that auto-wounds something each time she shoots, or do you take away her shooting entirely?

*Shokk Attak Gun. Lots of wonky possible rolls. You'd have to rewrite the mechanic for how it works.

*Pretty much any ork shooting, actually. For their points, most ork dakka doesn't average much damage, BUT they have the potential spike their damage into cost efficiency with a lucky roll. Lootas, for instance, are meh if you average two shots and hit with 1/3rd of them. But that one turn you roll a 3 for the number of shots and then hit with more than half of them? Completely different experience.

* "Crit" mechanics. How many AP-3 attacks are shuriken weapons assumed to generate? How many mortal wounds do flesh gauntlets do?

* Smite. Sure, you'll average 2 mortal wounds, but how do you account for the rare time you do 6 instead?

*Perils in general actually. If my math is right, you generally have a 1/18th chance of suffering perils. How do you account for that?

*Charging out of deepstrike. Am I just ham-fistedly only allowed to automatically make a charge with 1/3rd of my units or something?

Diceless games are all well and good, but you'd have to redesign 40k from the ground up to make this work. You'd need to overhaul most of the core rules. You'd have to recost everything to represent the lack of damage spiking. You'd probably want to change the damage resolution mechanics in general to streamline them for a diceless format. Etc.

And then, if you did all of that, you'd be that much more likely to turn 40k into a "solved" game. Having stripped away much of the statistical obfuscation and uncertainty, you'd be left with a scenario where players could much more reliably predict the flow of the game before-hand. Currently, I can look at my opponent's army, determine that his mathematical averages beat mine even if I maneuver as intelligently as possible, and then still come out ahead provided the dice are on my side. After all, he might always roll a bunch of ones. But as soon as you can reliably determine how much damage a gunline will put out each turn, you can pretty much just math out the first couple of turns of the game and then call the game without playing a single turn.


Aaaaaand.... /thread.


Gosh. I've never ended a thread before. Do... do I have to make a speech? Is there a trophy or something?
   
Made in ca
Chaplain with Hate to Spare





dice rolls are what makes 40k FUN. the randomness etc. everyone has a story of when lucky dice allowed them to win the day when mathamaticly they where toast. thats not a bad thing. thats what can make 40k exciting

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in it
Drifting Cronos Hungry for Souls




Italy

Playing averages can make sense when you have to roll 20+ dice since you should get something near the average anyway. I wouldn't like that since I'm an ork player and I love throwing tons of dice on the table

With a few dice involved playing averages is definitely a bad idea.

I'd consider an app that randomly generates the dice roll in order to make games faster but it should be used by both players from the same source, for example the same phone.

Orks 9500
Space Wolves 6500
Drukhari 4500 
   
Made in us
Walking Dead Wraithlord






This kind of thing works, but it simply has to be designed that way from the ground up. It's nigh impossible to adequately apply it to something like 40K.

Also, it's not very fun by comparison for most people.

 
   
Made in gb
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought






Not rolling sounds like that scene in Hero, where the two combatants stare at each other and one falls on his own sword, knowing he could not beat his opponent. Seems pretty un-fun.

I scratch-built a Macharius, Thunderbolt, Spartan, Land Raider and more! Have a peek at the build and my painting progress here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/513429.page

 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:
Why are you guys all so obviously falling for that guy's trolling?
He's just one random guy on the internet with an opinion that is laughably divorced from reality. Move along.

 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Let's say you have your unit shooting an enemy's unit, averages out to 19/9 wounds or something. Obviously that's 2 wounds and 1/9 remainder. At this point I'm sure you can find an app on a phone or online that allows you to roll a 9-sided die. Just use that for any "tie-breakers"

Something Like Wolfram Alpha always gives you the numbers in both fractional and decimal format. I usually use it for all my math-hammering. For example, for a unit of 10 guardsmen firing in rapid fire range against, heck, lets say Tau Fire Warriors. 20 shots, 4+ to hit, 4+ to wound, 4+ armor.

20*(1/2)*(1/2)*(1/2) = 2.5 wounds.

2 For sure wounds, and then flip a coin for the last one. Simple.

Problem is, All d3 weapons become Damage:2. and All d6 weapons become Damage 3.5. Take it as you will, but I agree with a lot of the other posts. It removes a lot of the fun and randomness from the game. Everyone Advances 3.5 inches woohoo!
   
Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

A friend of mine and I talked about trying that back in 7th at one point. We concluded for the all the effort and time spent setting up a game and playing through it, we'd rather just have a game and have fun rather than go through what's going to be an interesting, but probably boring, academic exercise.

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in gb
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought






 daedalus wrote:
A friend of mine and I talked about trying that back in 7th at one point. We concluded for the all the effort and time spent setting up a game and playing through it, we'd rather just have a game and have fun rather than go through what's going to be an interesting, but probably boring, academic exercise.


"Here's my list."
"Here's mine."
"OK, I've deployed."
"Me too."
"Well, statistically, you win... great game!"
"Same time next week?"


I scratch-built a Macharius, Thunderbolt, Spartan, Land Raider and more! Have a peek at the build and my painting progress here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/513429.page

 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:
Why are you guys all so obviously falling for that guy's trolling?
He's just one random guy on the internet with an opinion that is laughably divorced from reality. Move along.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 JohnnyHell wrote:
 daedalus wrote:
A friend of mine and I talked about trying that back in 7th at one point. We concluded for the all the effort and time spent setting up a game and playing through it, we'd rather just have a game and have fun rather than go through what's going to be an interesting, but probably boring, academic exercise.


"Here's my list."
"Here's mine."
"OK, I've deployed."
"Me too."
"Well, statistically, you win... great game!"
"Same time next week?"



Pretty much. All else being unchanged, that's pretty much how it goes. It's basically a game of not doing the sub-optimal thing during your turn and not bringing a mathematically inferior list.
   
Made in gb
Gargantuan Gargant





It's a stupid idea because it means Unit A will ALWAYS beat Unit B.

Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written in the rulebook, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective.
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy, "minimum" ranges don't work, Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll, the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit, the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously, Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields, Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12", Spore Mines have an infinite range, Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad, T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only), and T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle, Genestealer Cults can no longer move after ambushing, you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it, single use weapons MUST be fired the first time a model shoots if they are in range and LOS, if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit, the Agents of Vect stratagem can be used by ANY Drukhari army, not just one with a Kabal of the Black Heart detachment, a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight, Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything, Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers, and Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylish CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- 
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws





Huntsville, Texas

At that point, why are you playing tabletop games? The random element of the game that allows a lesser army to overtake a better constructed army is why I play.

If you are playing averages, you are better off playing X-Com or Final Fantasy Tactics, there is no reason to waste your time with physical models. Having Mephiston roll far above average to not only survive a charge from Magnus, but only take 2 wounds and do 12 in return during that player's turn is what makes the game for me. Those small epic moments where the dice can spike or fall flat, that make or break a game is where I find the most enjoyment/lamentation in a game.
   
Made in ca
Chaplain with Hate to Spare





 BaconCatBug wrote:
It's a stupid idea because it means Unit A will ALWAYS beat Unit B.


and half the fun of 40k is that time a single grot somehow manages to kill a chaos space marine squad backed by abbaddon.

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in gb
Bounding Dark Angels Assault Marine






I don't think it'd be a good idea; while I do agree that GW games tend to be too random (just look at the new mechanism for blast weapons), there are better ways of cutting down on the dice rolling, or allowing more of it to happen at the same time.

For example, the game could be simplified down into simultaneous Attack and Defence rolls, rather than separate hit, wound then save rolls; this wouldn't reduce the number of dice being rolled, but would increase the speed of the game (as well as making the defender feel more involved in the process).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/12 14:19:49


   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






How much damage would something like an explosion deal? It can be 1\6 of a mortal wound to everything around.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/13 11:01:46


 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K Proposed Rules
Go to: