Switch Theme:

Playing Averages Instead of Dice Rolls  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Chosen Baal Sec Youngblood




Has anyone played averages instead of dice rolls?
By this I mean if you you have BS 4+ then 50% of your shots hit, no rolling dice.
I feel like this would work well for 40k and eliminate a lot of the luck involved. Allowing for greater strategic list building and play.
Players can carry a calculator instead of 200 dice.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/08 22:51:32


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




This is a bad idea. Do YOU want to keep tracking of the models that suffered 3.5 wounds and the ones that further suffer only 0.7 and stuff like that?

Nah I'm good.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps







I've thought about it, and if I found a like minded mathematical type, I'd certainly give it a try. With the right ap, it would be easy, and in the current Game of a Billion Dice, it would work pretty well. There are hardly any important single rolls any more (which I don't love actually, since they put more suspense into the game).
   
Made in ca
Frenzied Berserker Terminator





Canada

Biel Tan says no. So do all the characters with reroll auras.



Gets along better with animals... Go figure. 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

 darkcloak wrote:
Biel Tan says no. So do all the characters with reroll auras.


That's not that hard to math out.

X+ rerolling 1s is the number of sides that are successes multiplied by 7 out of 36. So 6+ is 7/36, 5+ is 14/36, etc. etc.

I did that math in my head. Add a calculator, and it's easy.

That being said, I'm not a big fan of this. How would you deal with the reroll stratagem? Or what about when I have only one shot?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






There is a thread thats not THAT old that was about exactly this. There was a near universal hate for the idea.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps







I think I wrote one a few years back which was based it on old wargaming tables. The idea there was to speed up the game. I'll freely admit it is not a popular idea.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Even putting aside the logistical problems you'd have to address, I think this idea would still run into problems. For one thing, you'd have to account for eliminate those special rules that do depend on extreme good/bad luck. For instance, how do you account for...

*Plasma? Do you just average out the number of dead models each time you fire a salvo making overcharging go from risky to literally suicidal? What if there's only a single plasma guy in a unit? Do you just round up and make him immune to overheating? Round down and guarantee the first overcharge shot kills him each time?

* Cheap units. I'm thinking lhameans here at 18 points per unit. On average, her shooting won't kill anything. So do you round up and make her an 18 point model that auto-wounds something each time she shoots, or do you take away her shooting entirely?

*Shokk Attak Gun. Lots of wonky possible rolls. You'd have to rewrite the mechanic for how it works.

*Pretty much any ork shooting, actually. For their points, most ork dakka doesn't average much damage, BUT they have the potential spike their damage into cost efficiency with a lucky roll. Lootas, for instance, are meh if you average two shots and hit with 1/3rd of them. But that one turn you roll a 3 for the number of shots and then hit with more than half of them? Completely different experience.

* "Crit" mechanics. How many AP-3 attacks are shuriken weapons assumed to generate? How many mortal wounds do flesh gauntlets do?

* Smite. Sure, you'll average 2 mortal wounds, but how do you account for the rare time you do 6 instead?

*Perils in general actually. If my math is right, you generally have a 1/18th chance of suffering perils. How do you account for that?

*Charging out of deepstrike. Am I just ham-fistedly only allowed to automatically make a charge with 1/3rd of my units or something?

Diceless games are all well and good, but you'd have to redesign 40k from the ground up to make this work. You'd need to overhaul most of the core rules. You'd have to recost everything to represent the lack of damage spiking. You'd probably want to change the damage resolution mechanics in general to streamline them for a diceless format. Etc.

And then, if you did all of that, you'd be that much more likely to turn 40k into a "solved" game. Having stripped away much of the statistical obfuscation and uncertainty, you'd be left with a scenario where players could much more reliably predict the flow of the game before-hand. Currently, I can look at my opponent's army, determine that his mathematical averages beat mine even if I maneuver as intelligently as possible, and then still come out ahead provided the dice are on my side. After all, he might always roll a bunch of ones. But as soon as you can reliably determine how much damage a gunline will put out each turn, you can pretty much just math out the first couple of turns of the game and then call the game without playing a single turn.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






Wyldhunt wrote:
Even putting aside the logistical problems you'd have to address, I think this idea would still run into problems. For one thing, you'd have to account for eliminate those special rules that do depend on extreme good/bad luck. For instance, how do you account for...

*Plasma? Do you just average out the number of dead models each time you fire a salvo making overcharging go from risky to literally suicidal? What if there's only a single plasma guy in a unit? Do you just round up and make him immune to overheating? Round down and guarantee the first overcharge shot kills him each time?

* Cheap units. I'm thinking lhameans here at 18 points per unit. On average, her shooting won't kill anything. So do you round up and make her an 18 point model that auto-wounds something each time she shoots, or do you take away her shooting entirely?

*Shokk Attak Gun. Lots of wonky possible rolls. You'd have to rewrite the mechanic for how it works.

*Pretty much any ork shooting, actually. For their points, most ork dakka doesn't average much damage, BUT they have the potential spike their damage into cost efficiency with a lucky roll. Lootas, for instance, are meh if you average two shots and hit with 1/3rd of them. But that one turn you roll a 3 for the number of shots and then hit with more than half of them? Completely different experience.

* "Crit" mechanics. How many AP-3 attacks are shuriken weapons assumed to generate? How many mortal wounds do flesh gauntlets do?

* Smite. Sure, you'll average 2 mortal wounds, but how do you account for the rare time you do 6 instead?

*Perils in general actually. If my math is right, you generally have a 1/18th chance of suffering perils. How do you account for that?

*Charging out of deepstrike. Am I just ham-fistedly only allowed to automatically make a charge with 1/3rd of my units or something?

Diceless games are all well and good, but you'd have to redesign 40k from the ground up to make this work. You'd need to overhaul most of the core rules. You'd have to recost everything to represent the lack of damage spiking. You'd probably want to change the damage resolution mechanics in general to streamline them for a diceless format. Etc.

And then, if you did all of that, you'd be that much more likely to turn 40k into a "solved" game. Having stripped away much of the statistical obfuscation and uncertainty, you'd be left with a scenario where players could much more reliably predict the flow of the game before-hand. Currently, I can look at my opponent's army, determine that his mathematical averages beat mine even if I maneuver as intelligently as possible, and then still come out ahead provided the dice are on my side. After all, he might always roll a bunch of ones. But as soon as you can reliably determine how much damage a gunline will put out each turn, you can pretty much just math out the first couple of turns of the game and then call the game without playing a single turn.


Aaaaaand.... /thread.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in au
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





hilty26 wrote:
Has anyone played averages instead of dice rolls?
By this I mean if you you have BS 4+ then 50% of your shots hit, no rolling dice.
I feel like this would work well for 40k and eliminate a lot of the luck involved. Allowing for greater strategic list building and play.
Players can carry a calculator instead of 200 dice.


Why collect an army then? Just print out a spreadsheet, compare it to your opponent's spreadsheet and shake hands.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Lance845 wrote:
Wyldhunt wrote:
Even putting aside the logistical problems you'd have to address, I think this idea would still run into problems. For one thing, you'd have to account for eliminate those special rules that do depend on extreme good/bad luck. For instance, how do you account for...

*Plasma? Do you just average out the number of dead models each time you fire a salvo making overcharging go from risky to literally suicidal? What if there's only a single plasma guy in a unit? Do you just round up and make him immune to overheating? Round down and guarantee the first overcharge shot kills him each time?

* Cheap units. I'm thinking lhameans here at 18 points per unit. On average, her shooting won't kill anything. So do you round up and make her an 18 point model that auto-wounds something each time she shoots, or do you take away her shooting entirely?

*Shokk Attak Gun. Lots of wonky possible rolls. You'd have to rewrite the mechanic for how it works.

*Pretty much any ork shooting, actually. For their points, most ork dakka doesn't average much damage, BUT they have the potential spike their damage into cost efficiency with a lucky roll. Lootas, for instance, are meh if you average two shots and hit with 1/3rd of them. But that one turn you roll a 3 for the number of shots and then hit with more than half of them? Completely different experience.

* "Crit" mechanics. How many AP-3 attacks are shuriken weapons assumed to generate? How many mortal wounds do flesh gauntlets do?

* Smite. Sure, you'll average 2 mortal wounds, but how do you account for the rare time you do 6 instead?

*Perils in general actually. If my math is right, you generally have a 1/18th chance of suffering perils. How do you account for that?

*Charging out of deepstrike. Am I just ham-fistedly only allowed to automatically make a charge with 1/3rd of my units or something?

Diceless games are all well and good, but you'd have to redesign 40k from the ground up to make this work. You'd need to overhaul most of the core rules. You'd have to recost everything to represent the lack of damage spiking. You'd probably want to change the damage resolution mechanics in general to streamline them for a diceless format. Etc.

And then, if you did all of that, you'd be that much more likely to turn 40k into a "solved" game. Having stripped away much of the statistical obfuscation and uncertainty, you'd be left with a scenario where players could much more reliably predict the flow of the game before-hand. Currently, I can look at my opponent's army, determine that his mathematical averages beat mine even if I maneuver as intelligently as possible, and then still come out ahead provided the dice are on my side. After all, he might always roll a bunch of ones. But as soon as you can reliably determine how much damage a gunline will put out each turn, you can pretty much just math out the first couple of turns of the game and then call the game without playing a single turn.


Aaaaaand.... /thread.


Gosh. I've never ended a thread before. Do... do I have to make a speech? Is there a trophy or something?


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





dice rolls are what makes 40k FUN. the randomness etc. everyone has a story of when lucky dice allowed them to win the day when mathamaticly they where toast. thats not a bad thing. thats what can make 40k exciting

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

Playing averages can make sense when you have to roll 20+ dice since you should get something near the average anyway. I wouldn't like that since I'm an ork player and I love throwing tons of dice on the table

With a few dice involved playing averages is definitely a bad idea.

I'd consider an app that randomly generates the dice roll in order to make games faster but it should be used by both players from the same source, for example the same phone.

 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





This kind of thing works, but it simply has to be designed that way from the ground up. It's nigh impossible to adequately apply it to something like 40K.

Also, it's not very fun by comparison for most people.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

Not rolling sounds like that scene in Hero, where the two combatants stare at each other and one falls on his own sword, knowing he could not beat his opponent. Seems pretty un-fun.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Let's say you have your unit shooting an enemy's unit, averages out to 19/9 wounds or something. Obviously that's 2 wounds and 1/9 remainder. At this point I'm sure you can find an app on a phone or online that allows you to roll a 9-sided die. Just use that for any "tie-breakers"

Something Like Wolfram Alpha always gives you the numbers in both fractional and decimal format. I usually use it for all my math-hammering. For example, for a unit of 10 guardsmen firing in rapid fire range against, heck, lets say Tau Fire Warriors. 20 shots, 4+ to hit, 4+ to wound, 4+ armor.

20*(1/2)*(1/2)*(1/2) = 2.5 wounds.

2 For sure wounds, and then flip a coin for the last one. Simple.

Problem is, All d3 weapons become Damage:2. and All d6 weapons become Damage 3.5. Take it as you will, but I agree with a lot of the other posts. It removes a lot of the fun and randomness from the game. Everyone Advances 3.5 inches woohoo!
   
Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

A friend of mine and I talked about trying that back in 7th at one point. We concluded for the all the effort and time spent setting up a game and playing through it, we'd rather just have a game and have fun rather than go through what's going to be an interesting, but probably boring, academic exercise.

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

 daedalus wrote:
A friend of mine and I talked about trying that back in 7th at one point. We concluded for the all the effort and time spent setting up a game and playing through it, we'd rather just have a game and have fun rather than go through what's going to be an interesting, but probably boring, academic exercise.


"Here's my list."
"Here's mine."
"OK, I've deployed."
"Me too."
"Well, statistically, you win... great game!"
"Same time next week?"


 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 JohnnyHell wrote:
 daedalus wrote:
A friend of mine and I talked about trying that back in 7th at one point. We concluded for the all the effort and time spent setting up a game and playing through it, we'd rather just have a game and have fun rather than go through what's going to be an interesting, but probably boring, academic exercise.


"Here's my list."
"Here's mine."
"OK, I've deployed."
"Me too."
"Well, statistically, you win... great game!"
"Same time next week?"



Pretty much. All else being unchanged, that's pretty much how it goes. It's basically a game of not doing the sub-optimal thing during your turn and not bringing a mathematically inferior list.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






It's a stupid idea because it means Unit A will ALWAYS beat Unit B.
   
Made in us
Charing Cold One Knight





Sticksville, Texas

At that point, why are you playing tabletop games? The random element of the game that allows a lesser army to overtake a better constructed army is why I play.

If you are playing averages, you are better off playing X-Com or Final Fantasy Tactics, there is no reason to waste your time with physical models. Having Mephiston roll far above average to not only survive a charge from Magnus, but only take 2 wounds and do 12 in return during that player's turn is what makes the game for me. Those small epic moments where the dice can spike or fall flat, that make or break a game is where I find the most enjoyment/lamentation in a game.
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





 BaconCatBug wrote:
It's a stupid idea because it means Unit A will ALWAYS beat Unit B.


and half the fun of 40k is that time a single grot somehow manages to kill a chaos space marine squad backed by abbaddon.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Hooded Inquisitorial Interrogator






I don't think it'd be a good idea; while I do agree that GW games tend to be too random (just look at the new mechanism for blast weapons), there are better ways of cutting down on the dice rolling, or allowing more of it to happen at the same time.

For example, the game could be simplified down into simultaneous Attack and Defence rolls, rather than separate hit, wound then save rolls; this wouldn't reduce the number of dice being rolled, but would increase the speed of the game (as well as making the defender feel more involved in the process).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/12 14:19:49


   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






How much damage would something like an explosion deal? It can be 1\6 of a mortal wound to everything around.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/13 11:01:46


 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K Proposed Rules
Go to: