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What would be the 5 weakest factions in the game -- in order -- right now in 8th Edition 40k as of the current date ( Since power curves continue to change, due to new codexes and faq changes ) and why?

I dunno what the other three are, but the two worst performing armies in the game have been Deathwatch and Necrons up to this point. Deathwatch are all the problems with MEQ multiplied by a hundred, and Necrons rely on a rule that won't come into play most of the time. The latter are about to get a huge leg up next week of course, and I think will end up a mid-tier army at very worst.

Deathwatch and Grey Knights are definitely down there.

Deathwatch is by far the worst, having a sort of "glass cannon" problem.

After that, I'm not so certain.

In order worst to meh

1) non-primaris Deathwatch.
2) Grey Knights
3) Orks that use anything other than mass boyz
4) Imperial Knights
5) Harlequins (similar glass cannon issue as DW)

 WindstormSCR wrote:
In order worst to meh

1) non-primaris Deathwatch.
2) Grey Knights
3) Orks that use anything other than mass boyz
4) Imperial Knights
5) Harlequins (similar glass cannon issue as DW)

Pretty much this, yeah.

Drukhari are quite bad, basically they only have anti tank and nothing else. Everything is a glass cannon.

Orks are also bad in regular 5-7 turns games, even with their strongest lists. With the rock paper scissor syndrome an all infantry ork list may be supergood against certain opponents though.

Deathwatch, harlequins and GK are bad, but IMHO they shouldn't even be indepentend factions. Basically the only codex armies that really can be considered bad are GK.

I'm not sure about drukhari. They're really not that bad against anything other than hordes. Even vs hordes that don't have decent shooting and usually lack speed (like orks) you can try to kite them and shoot with what little anti-infantry that you have. And you have some ok-ish mellee by the time of 3-d turn to strike the weak spots. That's why i actually prefer witches to warriors. Cause a couple extra poisoned shots rarely matter while a bunch of attacks and 4++ do. Besides, witches have drugs to increase number of attacks and str. In no way they are a good unit - they would have been ok if they costed at least 7 ppm but anywayz, they can beuseful for this matchup.


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Also, grey knights are surely not as low as deathwatch or mono inquisition. As for bottom 5, well, who knows. Might be. They only have a handful of units and only like 2 or 3 of them are ok.

Necrons are surely not powerful but they were probably the top of the bottom tier before the codex. Now they're probably somewhere around mid or high mid.

No, drukhari are very bad at the moment. They can only shine against full armored list since they're only good thing is the cheap anti tank. Melee is super terrible, even in 3rd turn, wyches have a few S3 attacks with no AP for 9ppm, they may just be a good tarpit against elite units that unleash high S and high AP hits.

Drukhari transports are even more overcosted than orks ones But they're needed since they can't really field effective hordes.

Trukk boyz lists are better than drukhari.

I've seen Drukhari shred a Guard horde supported by Russes, by nailing the russes and then just dicking around in their vehicles to victory.

That said, I agree they're not in a fantabulous spot right now.

EDIT:
Also to add: it was an open war cards mission and the DE player had a ruse, so definitely not a real meta test of strength.

 Blackie wrote:
No, drukhari are very bad at the moment. They can only shine against full armored list since they're only good thing is the cheap anti tank. Melee is super terrible, even in 3rd turn, wyches have a few S3 attacks with no AP for 9ppm, they may just be a good tarpit against elite units that unleash high S and high AP hits.

Drukhari transports are even more overcosted than orks ones But they're needed since they can't really field effective hordes.

Trukk boyz lists are better than drukhari.

How does the beastmasters fare in melee? Is the crows so nerfed they can not be played? Just shoot everything ranged, and then start disecting with some beasts?

 Niiai wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
No, drukhari are very bad at the moment. They can only shine against full armored list since they're only good thing is the cheap anti tank. Melee is super terrible, even in 3rd turn, wyches have a few S3 attacks with no AP for 9ppm, they may just be a good tarpit against elite units that unleash high S and high AP hits.

Drukhari transports are even more overcosted than orks ones But they're needed since they can't really field effective hordes.

Trukk boyz lists are better than drukhari.

How does the beastmasters fare in melee? Is the crows so nerfed they can not be played? Just shoot everything ranged, and then start disecting with some beasts?

Yeah, razorwings got nerfhammered because a bunch of people started using the super-cheap Zombicide crow set. GW doubled their points value, which is typically not a sign of a well-measured and fair attempt to make something actually balanced and more just a "stop using this thing kthxbye".

Clawed Fiends are in an ok spot currently. A lot of people use them in place of the now terrible Grotesques because they actually do D2 with their melee weapon meaning they can conceivably kill something.

The units that work in the DE codex are: Anything with dark lances or equivalents, clawed fiends, Ur-ghuls and Sslyths because Character rule abuse, Kab warriors naked are decent (good filler troops for Ynnari lists for when you don't have 20 extra points for rangers), and Haemonculi come closest to being a decent HQ because they can actually kill something unlike "combat specialist" succubi or archons, who don't have a single non-trash melee weapon option.

Haemonculi will become useless again with the codex when they remove their access to electrocorrosive whips (you know, despite all 57 melee options for the haemonculi being available in plastic all in one kit, perfectly easy to convert onto your model...) which are the aforementioned non-trash melee option. Fun fact: Currently the default model for the haemonculus has an illegal loadout that you can't run with the current rules. That's how much GW bothers to give a gak about dark eldar.

DE and Necrons are bottom tier based on tournament results.

GK are probably the weakest of the Codex holders but I'd back them against Necrons for another week or so.

Never seen a Deathwatch army in the wild, so couldn't say where they were. Not convinced pure Genestealer Cults are that good either, but its a similar problem.

What about vanilla marines that does not feature any Primaries Porn in their army list?

 DalinCriid wrote:
What about vanilla marines that does not feature any Primaries Porn in their army list?

Not even close to the weakest. I'd say they're solidly middle ground.

 DalinCriid wrote:
What about vanilla marines that does not feature any Primaries Porn in their army list?

I mean, if we're talking about factions that leave their best options off the table for a non-tactical reason, then pretty much everything is up in the air. You could say "what about all-melee eldar armies" or "what about mechanized IG armies?"

I'd definitely still rank non primaris marines higher than orks, index crons, deathwatch, GK, Harlequins and Drukhari confidently. Raven guard's got some tricks, Salamanders got some tricks.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I dunno what the other three are, but the two worst performing armies in the game have been Deathwatch and Necrons up to this point. Deathwatch are all the problems with MEQ multiplied by a hundred, and Necrons rely on a rule that won't come into play most of the time. The latter are about to get a huge leg up next week of course, and I think will end up a mid-tier army at very worst.

bear in mind if the leaked codex is right there will be no major changes to the Resurrection Protocols mechanic, so that will still be their issue, though at least they will get the full range of codex stuff (subfaction bonuses, relics, good warlord traits...). Some of these look good on paper but may turn out to be highly dependent on the metagame...

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DalinCriid wrote:
What about vanilla marines that does not feature any Primaries Porn in their army list?

Not even close to the weakest. I'd say they're solidly middle ground.

Out of the codexes they are clearly bottom - with admech and greyknights.

There really isn't much use analyzing index at all. They should not be expected to compete against codexes. Though harlequins actually fare pretty good against the 3 armies listed above.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DalinCriid wrote:
What about vanilla marines that does not feature any Primaries Porn in their army list?

Not even close to the weakest. I'd say they're solidly middle ground.

Out of the codexes they are clearly bottom - with admech and greyknights.

There really isn't much use analyzing index at all. They should not be expected to compete against codexes. Though harlequins actually fare pretty good against the 3 armies listed above.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DalinCriid wrote:
What about vanilla marines that does not feature any Primaries Porn in their army list?

Not even close to the weakest. I'd say they're solidly middle ground.

Out of the codexes they are clearly bottom - with admech and greyknights.

There really isn't much use analyzing index at all. They should not be expected to compete against codexes. Though harlequins actually fare pretty good against the 3 armies listed above.

The biggest thing I'll definitely grant about the marine codex is that while they can function competitively with the best options available to them, they definitely have the largest raw number of unviable options of any codex out there and they have a competitive playstyle that is absolutely nothing like the way marines are supposed to work, as an elite, infantry-focused, power armored force. They definitely need a Stormcast-style "oops, first codex" rules relaunch, or a major overhauling in the march balance FAQ with significant buffs to core units.

So while I am going to disagree that they're the weakest faction (I'm gonna have to insist we acknowledge the existence of indexes as long as there are indexes, and we're rumored to still be in indexes until at least December, so...yeah, those factions still exist even if you already "got yours") I will definitely attest to them probably being the most "feels bad to play" faction out there right now, up with GK, DW, and Drukhari. Because their viable options don't let you play them like 99% of the playerbase actually wants to.

Harlequins are really good in a Ynnari list. They're pretty abysmal as actual Harlequins.

One thing that confuses me consistently is how low people rank Admech. It might be that I'm used to playing Index vs codex, but my admech army setup consistently feels really powerful, and I'd rank it over my Guard infantry army in terms of strength. I run mine without Kawl and with no Dakkabots and they just feel so strong with the Stygies trait and turn 1 Shroudpsalm.

Robots and cawl are the cornerstone of the army. Outside of dune crawlers nothing else is any good.

IMHO

Codex armies:

1. GK
2. Admech
3. Vanilla marines
4. Custodes
5. Demons/TS (not sure on this one)

Index (necrons excluded because leaks)
1. Deathwatch
2. Knights
3. GSC
4. Orcs
5. DE

From weakest to not quite as weak:

Sisters of Silence
Inquisition
Deathwatch
Imperial Knights
Grey Knights

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I've seen Drukhari shred a Guard horde supported by Russes, by nailing the russes and then just dicking around in their vehicles to victory.

That said, I agree they're not in a fantabulous spot right now.

EDIT:
Also to add: it was an open war cards mission and the DE player had a ruse, so definitely not a real meta test of strength.

It's certainly possible for the Dark Eldar to win against Guard but it's not a good match-up for them at all. Poison weaponry is the equivalent of S3 against Guard infantry, which obviously isn't great; even the strongest splinter weapon at the moment turns into Rapid Fire 3, S3, 0 AP. They bring a lot of anti-tank, sure, but they still need far more points to take out a single Guard tank than the Guard need to take out anything carrying Dark Lances.

Fundamentally, right now they're a glass cannon that aren't that great at the cannon part.

Oh so the same as they were the last 2 editions?

When I tried them a few times the cannon had at least increased.

I do'nt know about the 5 worst but I'd say GK are the worst atm.

bananathug wrote:
IMHO

Codex armies:

1. GK
2. Admech
3. Vanilla marines
4. Custodes
5. Demons/TS (not sure on this one)

Index (necrons excluded because leaks)
1. Deathwatch
2. Knights
3. GSC
4. Orcs
5. DE

After the first trash 3 - it's hard to keep picking more because you enter a new class of army. Those probably are the correct 2 following marines but TZ daemons are actually not half bad. Ive never lost a game with them. 5-0 currently.

You also have to factor in soup.

Because any Imperium army is automatically not on the bottom because they can soup in guard and be immediately competitive.

If you're looking purely at mono-armies, then GK is absolutely the worst in the game.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Robots and cawl are the cornerstone of the army. Outside of dune crawlers nothing else is any good.

I use one dunecrawler, 4 dragoons, plenty of skitarii and a couple TPDs with the stygies tactics and do great. YMMV I guess.

Dark eldar
DW
Orks
Genestealer cult
Knights


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Dark eldar
DW
Orks
Genestealer cult
Knights

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I've seen Drukhari shred a Guard horde supported by Russes, by nailing the russes and then just dicking around in their vehicles to victory.

That said, I agree they're not in a fantabulous spot right now.

EDIT:
Also to add: it was an open war cards mission and the DE player had a ruse, so definitely not a real meta test of strength.

It's anectodical. I've won with mechanized orks against competitive AM lists.

Drukhari suffer because they have nothing but anti tank. All the units are extremely fragile, no answer to hordes, weak melee units. Not even enough bodies to field an effective horde.

IronmanKC81 wrote:
Dark eldar
DW
Orks
Genestealer cult
Knights


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Dark eldar
DW
Orks
Genestealer cult
Knights

I'd like to point out that orks can field really strong lists. Counter-meta. No armor at all. Just fields of mellee boyz. But anything else is really really low tier. Worse than witch cult. I mean literally, de can have half of the army to be witches in raiders and win vs non-horde orks without breaking a sweat.

Knights are kinda in the opposite situation. They can only field vehicles. So, as the meta is currently anti-tank-oriented (it's started to change a little, though) they can't compete and get stomped early on. But knights can dominta vs someone who decided to not focus on anti-tank.

Haven't seen a genestealer or deathwatch player after 7-th edition, so can't tell anything about them.