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I was watching the Adepticon final table between Nick and Matt tonight. It was a great battle and Matt was able to pull it off despite a very troubling situation that happened. Earlier in the game Nick had periled Ahriman command point rerolled and got the spell off and imediately periled on Ahrimans next spell. He then said it wasnt worth the risk and didnt cast his third spell. By the next turn Nick was running low on ways to hurt hive tyrrants as he had lost 2 of his 3 daemon princes and his last had pulled back with 2 wounds. Then came the moment of truth. Ahriman periled again. Knowing the stakes Nick tapped his last srratagem point die. Unwilling to use his last point he said out loud dont die. Sure enough Ahriman kills him. Within a second he pulls him a starts rolling shooting dice. My friend and i stand there slack jawed as he doesnt blow him up and potentially killing his daemon prince. So i got the judges attention and let him know. What he said to me was shocking. He said he wasnt there to ensure the integrity of the game just to abitrate disputes. That daemon prince then killed the big game hunter that turn.

I had two major problems with this. While i am not saying Nick skipped blowing up Ahriman on purpose it is fair to say he knows the rule. By the judges call if he had done this on purpose and tried to push it by his opponent that was fine, because if you are not caught by your opponent it isnt illegal.
My secon issue is that it is judge calls like this that feeds the toxic tournament environment everyone has run into where an opponent has you show him every rule you use. While in early rounds there is no way judges can keep up you would think on the final table they would care if there was a huge game changing deviation from the rules.

Luckily Matt was able to pull it off or it feels it would have reinforced to see how much you can get away with in order to win.

Wait, so did the dude cheat or not?

I am not saying he did it on purpose but the rules were not followed in his favor and it had a huge impact on the game. I am sure as having played a lot of 8th he is aware of the rule but it may have just slipped his mind. It did however seem like he was aware of the impact diying from perils could have.

Nick's a good guy. Let's not start an internet lynch mob here based on innuendo, okay?

 meleti wrote:
Nick's a good guy. Let's not start an internet lynch mob here based on innuendo, okay?

I don't think that's OP's intent. The problem is more the TO's attitude and behavior, which definitely was problematic in my view.

That said, didn't something exactly like this happen at NOVA and 'he's a good guy' got trotted out then too for whoever it was. Rules are rules and if the flub made a difference a retroactive score tweak is appropriate regardless of whether it's a good guy or not.

That said, it didn't seem to matter in the game so let's focus on the TO, who should have intervened when notified.

DeviationOfWar wrote:
So i got the judges attention and let him know. What he said to me was shocking. He said he wasnt there to ensure the integrity of the game just to abitrate disputes

Shameful failure by the judge, shameful failure by Adepticon for letting it happen. Why is it so hard for 40k events to have competent judges?

I can see something like that being forgotten in the heat of the moment, especially something as rare as what happens to a pyskers dying to perils, but if that was indeed the judges reaction that's a very odd stance to take. I don't think you'd hear that in any other tournament.

"Well I'm sure Shaq didn't mean to elbow that guy, so we'll just say it's an honest mistake unless the other team says something about it" would probably lead to a lynch mob in the NBA but what do I know.

I mean how often do you actually see someone die to perils these days, especially with how CP rerolls work? Perils alone is maybe a 6% chance, dying to it has to be a 1/100-1/1000 chance in itself.

Also, if this was an "honest mistake" how come he gets a break but the flesh tearers guy gets an automatic disqualification? (Aside from the whole allegedly he's done this before bit)

The Judges are only as good as the people who volunteer to do it. You get what you pay for. Which is why the Tournaments shy away from having the Judges act as Referees. Each people is expected to act as their own advocate. So in this case with things as they stand it was Matt's duty to call him on it.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
The Judges are only as good as the people who volunteer to do it. You get what you pay for. Which is why the Tournaments shy away from having the Judges act as Referees. Each people is expected to act as their own advocate. So in this case with things as they stand it was Matt's duty to call him on it.

Then competitive 40k will continue to be a joke.

It always has been joke, it will always be joke. When you try to run non-competive game in a competive way it will by definition be a joke. You do it for laughs. Not because you believe it actually is competive

 Peregrine wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
The Judges are only as good as the people who volunteer to do it. You get what you pay for. Which is why the Tournaments shy away from having the Judges act as Referees. Each people is expected to act as their own advocate. So in this case with things as they stand it was Matt's duty to call him on it.

Then competitive 40k will continue to be a joke.

Why don't you volunteer your expertise?

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Why don't you volunteer your expertise?

Because I don't care enough about competitive 40k to sacrifice my time and effort to help it. But refusing to spend my time and effort making it better doesn't in any way change the fact that competitive 40k is a joke as long as things like this incident keep happening, and the judge and event staff should be ashamed of their incompetence.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Why don't you volunteer your expertise?

Because I don't care enough about competitive 40k to sacrifice my time and effort to help it. But refusing to spend my time and effort making it better doesn't in any way change the fact that competitive 40k is a joke as long as things like this incident keep happening, and the judge and event staff should be ashamed of their incompetence.

Obviously that's not true. You spend a great deal of your time and effort to criticize it. And many other aspects of the game. This is something you can do to fix something, So why not take your chance to improve part of it?

 Crimson Devil wrote:
The Judges are only as good as the people who volunteer to do it. You get what you pay for. Which is why the Tournaments shy away from having the Judges act as Referees. Each people is expected to act as their own advocate. So in this case with things as they stand it was Matt's duty to call him on it.

That's not an excuse. Every wargames tournament I've ever been to has volunteer judges and in all of those cases the judge is empowered to correct rules mistakes that are brought to their attention. That's literally half of their job, the other half being to give impartial rulings on subjective matters where there is disagreement, such as LoS. I literally don't understand what the point of a judge is at these tournaments if this is the attitude. I can sort of understand a judge not noticing something like this - mistakes happen and that's fine - but not doing anything about it when it's brought to his attention is just bizarre. What's even more annoying is the person reporting the error did the right thing by going via a judge rather than interrupting the players, only to be met with a shrug.

If ha can’t catch an opponent flubbing the rules, you shouldn’t be mad if you lose.

tneva82 wrote:
It always has been joke, it will always be joke. When you try to run non-competive game in a competive way it will by definition be a joke. You do it for laughs. Not because you believe it actually is competive

Have an exalt, tneva82 - too many people treat the "competitive" side of 40k as serious business as it is.

Though if you are going to do that, active judging for the final - at the very least, possibly all games once there has been a cut, depending on judge numbers - should be a thing.

 Jaxler wrote:
If ha can’t catch an opponent flubbing the rules, you shouldn’t be mad if you lose.

The feth is this attitude? Want to play against some loaded dice then?

 Quickjager wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:
If ha can’t catch an opponent flubbing the rules, you shouldn’t be mad if you lose.

The feth is this attitude? Want to play against some loaded dice then?

That’s cheating. I’m saying if you can’t get the basic rules right, don’t be mad if the other guy doesn’t either and you can’t spot it.

 Jaxler wrote:
That’s cheating. I’m saying if you can’t get the basic rules right, don’t be mad if the other guy doesn’t either and you can’t spot it.

You're assuming that this was an innocent mistake and not cheating.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Why don't you volunteer your expertise?

Because I don't care enough about competitive 40k to sacrifice my time and effort to help it. But refusing to spend my time and effort making it better doesn't in any way change the fact that competitive 40k is a joke as long as things like this incident keep happening, and the judge and event staff should be ashamed of their incompetence.

Obviously that's not true. You spend a great deal of your time and effort to criticize it. And many other aspects of the game. This is something you can do to fix something, So why not take your chance to improve part of it?

Oh snap.

In any case I can see where possibly Nick forgot that they explode after. It's honestly something you might not think about often, because it happens pretty rarely (unless you peril with a Rubric).

Whether Nick forgot or he purposely cheated isn't as important, to me, as the fact that the rule was brought to the attention of a judge and the judge did nothing. I would expect more from a judge at a major event. Actually, I would expect a judge at any level of event to step in and correct the situation ASAP.
I would like to hear Adepticon's explanation of why the judge didn't either step in or get reprimanded by the TO (assuming he wasn't the TO).

tneva82 wrote:It always has been joke, it will always be joke. When you try to run non-competive game in a competive way it will by definition be a joke. You do it for laughs. Not because you believe it actually is competive

this is exactly why "competitive" 40k is hilarious. the only thing that makes 40k competitive is the players, it is most definitely not the rules, or anything else.

I totally agree you get what you pay for.

Man... in 15 games that I have played in 8th edition... my Librarian has blow himself up in 4 games. Maybe I have horrible luck but I never forgot to explode him

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Whether Nick forgot or he purposely cheated isn't as important, to me, as the fact that the rule was brought to the attention of a judge and the judge did nothing. I would expect more from a judge at a major event. Actually, I would expect a judge at any level of event to step in and correct the situation ASAP.
I would like to hear Adepticon's explanation of why the judge didn't either step in or get reprimanded by the TO (assuming he wasn't the TO).

There's an issue running tangential to this. We play a very social game and that comes with the quirks of social interactions.

A judge won't always be present. Nor might he or she realize there was an error. Maybe the judge even thought the spectator was mistaken.

The opponent, as well, was either ignorant of the problem or unwilling to point it out. And that dynamic extends into issues like slow play.

And all of that is why I tell my opponents, "KEEP ME HONEST". Because in the heat of the moment people forget things. They screw things up. As much as people want to hate on 40K being competitive in light of this issue...it's an incredibly complex game and made even more difficult when you're on a timer.

The issue with a judge stepping in is that unless it was made clear that they would be actively judged then it is up to the players to ask for rulings. This was pointed out to the judge, but whose to say other mistakes were not. Should this get intervention just because an observer noticed it?

Breng77 wrote:
The issue with a judge stepping in is that unless it was made clear that they would be actively judged then it is up to the players to ask for rulings. This was pointed out to the judge, but whose to say other mistakes were not. Should this get intervention just because an observer noticed it?

I very much think judges should interfere if they notice or are notified of a mistake being made.

Is there any other game where a judge will not actively interfere unless asked for?

Breng77 wrote:
The issue with a judge stepping in is that unless it was made clear that they would be actively judged then it is up to the players to ask for rulings. This was pointed out to the judge, but whose to say other mistakes were not. Should this get intervention just because an observer noticed it?

Yes. All mistakes should get intervention regardless of who noticed it or you can't really call yourself a competitive tournament: you're beer+chips hammer (which is fine too but we're running into the problem of mismatched expectations again).

 Ordana wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
The issue with a judge stepping in is that unless it was made clear that they would be actively judged then it is up to the players to ask for rulings. This was pointed out to the judge, but whose to say other mistakes were not. Should this get intervention just because an observer noticed it?

I very much think judges should interfere if they notice or are notified of a mistake being made.

Is there any other game where a judge will not actively interfere unless asked for?

Imagine if football referees only threw a flag if the other team complained about it... I imagine we'd have many more contact injuries than we do already.

That is where I disagree, the players (and if the judge is actively judging the table) are the only ones who should catch and correct mistakes. Otherwise is it fair to have my buddies watch my opponent for rules mistakes and get the judge, when he doesn’t have the same. You either need an active judge and that judge is the only one make rules calls, or you have players self judge and they are the only ones making rules calls. Both of those systems get use in other competitive environments, in no environment does the crowd call the game.

Breng77 wrote:
That is where I disagree, the players (and if the judge is actively judging the table) are the only ones who should catch and correct mistakes. Otherwise is it fair to have my buddies watch my opponent for rules mistakes and get the judge, when he doesn’t have the same. You either need an active judge and that judge is the only one make rules calls, or you have players self judge and they are the only ones making rules calls. Both of those systems get use in other competitive environments, in no environment does the crowd call the game.

The crowd isn't calling the game, the crowd is notifying the authority to call the game. HUGE difference.

And you're seriously arguing that having the ability to make sure someone follows the rules of the game (via more eyes watching) is an unfair advantage?

Yeah, that's everything wrong with some TO mindsets at the moment.