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Made in ro
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon




Lisbon, Portugal

Howdy, fellas!

This situation happened in a mini-tourney yesterday - Blood Angels x Deathwatch game. The Deathwatch player put his Corvus Blackstar 3" from the right side of a tall building (https://www.games-workshop.com/en-BE/Imperial-Bastion) and some bikes 3" from its left side. He believed this would create the anti-deepstrike bubble we all know and love.

However, the Blood Angels player did not conform to such thinking and deepstruck the famous Smash Captain (the Captain with the no-overwatch relic and other stuff) on the top of the Bastion; his reasoning was that we must measure distances from base to base. His Captain's base was indeed further than 9" from both Blackstar's and bikes' bases, so he believed he was abiding by the 'more than 9" ' rule. There was some discussion, but the TO sided with him and the game carried on.
Checking the rulebook, it says (p. 176, 'Tools of War' sidenote) that distances are measured between the closest points of the bases; if the model has no base, like Xenos vehicles, you need to measure from its hull (T'au Hammerheads to have a rule on this). Flyers have bases, so you measure from it, not from their hulls. Ok, that seems to validate the Blood Angels' player argument.

The main conundrum happened later, when the Blood Angels player argued that he could measure his charge distance using just the horizontal distance between his Captain and the Blackstar's wing, because Fly models can ignore vertical distances. This created another debate, but the Deathwatch player didn't want to discuss that too much (both players are good friends) and let it go as the Blood Angels' player wanted.
Checking the rulebook, it only says that Fly units can move across terrain and models as if they weren't there, but nowhere it says they simply ignore the vertical distances (the Blood Angels' player even reasoned that a Fly model on the top of the Fortress of Redemption could charge a unit down there if he rolled enough to cover the horizontal distance, not the vertical one - meaning a unit 10" away is in fact just 2" away).
Also, reading the Charge Phase rules, it only says you need to finish your models within 1" of an enemy model. It doesn't say anything regarding bases. Finally, there's nothing on charges, measurements, bases and horizontal/vertical distances on the rulebook faq.

After this explanation, I have some questions:

1. Deepstriking/reserves units do really need to measure only from the bases instead of the model to see if they can stay at 9" from an enemy model? This has some logic, but I've always played that the entire model counts for the 9" thing. Who's wrong in this?

2. Do units measure charge distances from base to base (like moving) or to the closest part of the enemy model? It makes no sense that a part of the game cares about bases and the other doesn't.

3. Do Fly units really ignore vertical distances when moving and/or charging? It makes no sense at all for me. It would give a tremendous advantage to melee deepstriking units if tall terrain is near enemy units! I've never seen such line of thinking before - everyone I played with considered the diagonal distance between the bases of the charging unit and the charged unit.

So, what do you guys think?

40k Dark Angels and future 30k Thousand Sons

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
"FW is unbalanced and going to ruin tournaments."
"Name one where it did that."
"IT JUST DOES OKAY!"

 
   
Made in us
Screamin' Stormboy




Somewhere near Hamburg

1. : Yes, you measure from base to base if there if the units in question have a base. If not, the distance is measured from and to the closest point of the model.

2. : You measure from base to base if there if the units in question have a base. If not, the distance is measured from and to the closest point of the model.

3. : Yes and no. Fly units ignore vertical distances as in "you can move over anything regardless of its heigth". Charge distances still get measured from base to base tho.

Astra Milit..*blam* Astra Milliwhat, heretic? 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





1. I think so. It can be a bit wierd. Moveing across terrain "as if it wasn't there" is wierd if you start on terrain. I guess it can be interpreted as a free move to ground level. But not sure.

2. Base to base (If they have bases)

3. They get the bonuses the rules say they get, so they can move across terrain and models, but not get free vertical movement.

..
4. Can you put units on top of bastions? Imo no. (If it's a fortification and not being used as just terrain.)

DFTT 
   
Made in nl
Dakka Veteran





Units with Fly don't ignore vertical movement. They ignore intervening terrain. Which is a big different. The distance from where their base starts to where their base ends is measured.

There is however a unit that does ignore vertical movement in the way that the BA player wanted to do. That is Primaris Reivers withe Grapple hooks, These specifically mention that vertical movement is free. Fly has no such wording.
   
Made in ro
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon




Lisbon, Portugal

Thanks for your answers, guys. Looks like the BA dude got away with a bit of too much free interpretation from the rules. The Reiver squad grapling hook rule will probably make he rethink his strat.


@Captyn_Bob: the Bastion was a neutral building, so I belive he could put people there. The Deathwatch guy didn't put it in his list.

40k Dark Angels and future 30k Thousand Sons

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
"FW is unbalanced and going to ruin tournaments."
"Name one where it did that."
"IT JUST DOES OKAY!"

 
   
Made in ru
Sneaky Striking Scorpion




Moscow

Think it's a correct thread. So new FAQ:

Q: When a unit that can Fly declares a charge move against a
unit that is on the upper levels of a ruin, do I need to include
the vertical distance when making the subsequent charge move
for the unit?
A: No. A unit that can Fly effectively ignores vertical
distances when making a charge move. Note though that
the charging unit must still be within 12" (measured
directly ‘base-to-base’, i.e. diagonally) to be able to
declare the charge in the first place.

So I don't get it... I must check if unit is within "12 base to base, but the result of a roll doesn't have to include vertical distance or what?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/04/17 01:15:03


 
   
Made in us
Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot





Sparta, Ohio

So if I am reading that FAQ correct, Player a could have his guys on top of the bastion and be like 11 inches away base to base, yet ignore vertical movement for the charge and just drop down and go up to 12 inches to surround his enemy? Or am I missing something in the rules and FAQ?

For clarification I would not play it this way ... but I do want to keep Carnie tricks to a minimum.

Now, we like big books. (And we cannot lie. You other readers can’t deny, a book flops open with an itty-bitty font, and a map that’s in your face, you get—sorry! Sorry!)  
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Pretty sure you check your within 12 base to base to declare your charge , then after you roll you check if it made it ignoring the vertical distance, so you can be 11 inches away vertical but only 3 inches away horizontally,
   
Made in de
Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws





Germany

If there is an enemy unit on the second floor of a ruin (6" above ground) i can deepstrike 9" diagonally away. The charge distance would only be 6-7" (6,7" is the exact horizontal distance). FLY units now ignore vertical distance when charging. The 6-7" charge move ( i need to get within 1" to make a successful charge) would take me right below the enemy units, the 6" vertical distance is ignored (free movement).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/17 06:13:33


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




On the flip side, if there's no room to place your models, you can't charge at all.

DFTT 
   
Made in de
Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws





Germany

Yes, but only one model needs to be within 1" to make a successful charge. The rest can stay 6" away on the ground level, the unit is still in coherency. After pile in and consolidation they are on the same floor.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/17 06:25:46


 
   
Made in fi
Fixture of Dakka





 p5freak wrote:
Yes, but only one model needs to be within 1" to make a successful charge. The rest can stay 6" away on the ground level, the unit is still in coherency. After pile in and consolidation they are on the same floor.


Yes. Of course that assumes enemy is careless enough to leave sufficient hole for there which would be rather careless of him.

“Nothing has a definite nature, so people cannot be purely evil. Even so-called evil people will aspire to follow a moral path when they feel a sense of community.” – Kukai

8100 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights
 
   
Made in de
Poxed Plague Monk





just think about the battlefield being 2-dimensional for units with the FLY keyword (besides the 12 inch charge allowance)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/17 11:14:18


6k 6k
3k 1k
 
   
Made in ro
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon




Lisbon, Portugal

Well, with that FAQ ruling it means the BA player was correct on 2 things instead of 1... but he was still wrong on the pre-charge measurement. I'll take this to him.

40k Dark Angels and future 30k Thousand Sons

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
"FW is unbalanced and going to ruin tournaments."
"Name one where it did that."
"IT JUST DOES OKAY!"

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Am I the only one that took it to mean you measure diagonally, as they have already stated that a charge from deepstrike is 9" always as you most be more than 9" away.
Fly unit more in a straight line and can ignore intervening terain

I don't think it means only measure the horizontal distance and ignore vertical distance
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




The rulebook faq says that FLY effectively ignores vertical distance

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/17 11:41:06


DFTT 
   
Made in gb
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought






Captyn_Bob wrote:
The rulebook faq says that FLY effectively ignores vertical distance


Big development, and how I’d originally interpreted the rule, but had stopped doing so as to not annoy my main regular opponent. Now I get to annoy him with the rules on my side.

I scratch-built a Macharius, Thunderbolt, Spartan, Land Raider and more! Have a peek at the build and my painting progress here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/513429.page

 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:
Why are you guys all so obviously falling for that guy's trolling?
He's just one random guy on the internet with an opinion that is laughably divorced from reality. Move along.

 
   
Made in gb
Gargantuan Gargant





They ignore the vertical distance, but still have to be within 12" diagonally to declare the charge. So it's a weird situation where the unit would need a 10 to reach the enemy, but can't charge them due to them being more than 13" physically, even though they only need to "move" 10".

It can also lead to the weird situation of you needing to roll a 2 to reach a unit that is 11" above you.

Why they couldn't have just made it the actual distance is beyond me.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/17 12:45:13


Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written in the rulebook, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective.
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy, "minimum" ranges don't work, Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll, the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit, the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously, Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields, Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12", Spore Mines have an infinite range, Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad, T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only), the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle, Genestealer Cults can no longer move after ambushing, you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it, single use weapons MUST be fired the first time a model shoots if they are in range and LOS, if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit, the Agents of Vect stratagem can be used by ANY Drukhari army, not just one with a Kabal of the Black Heart detachment, a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight, Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything, Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers, and Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- 
   
Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight




How about this weird scenerio- The model wanting to charge is 12" up in a building. The wall of the building is 2" away from the base of the model they want to charge. They would only need a roll of 1 to make it into combat but they are not allowed to charge because they are 12.1" away diagonally. a squared + b squared = c squared (4+144=148 square root of 148 = 12.1)
   
Made in pl
Dakka Veteran





tneva82 wrote:
Yes. Of course that assumes enemy is careless enough to leave sufficient hole for there which would be rather careless of him.

Yup, because shooting unit in question to make such a hole is unheard of strategy. Or doing any number of other things included in the game to force the unit to move or remove models.

Funnily enough, Inceptor squad can make a hole for next model by successfully charging current one...

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Why they couldn't have just made it the actual distance is beyond me.

Because Space Marine with a huge jetpack on his back laughs at enemy units trying to hide one floor above?

People were whining Assault Marines and the like were bad, this is big fat buff to them compared to bikers and foot CC units.
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




Norway.

So... Is this a thing now? (Some pro paintshop work, but you get my point...)
I see I should have used a picture of a berzerker with axe sword combo...



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/17 16:24:01


-Wibe. 
   
Made in gb
Gargantuan Gargant





 Wibe wrote:
So... Is this a thing now? (Some pro paintshop work, but you get my point...)
I see I should have used a picture of a berzerker with axe sword combo...


This was always a thing. From Day 0 we've pointed out being elevated by 1.1" means you can't actually hit them.

Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written in the rulebook, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective.
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy, "minimum" ranges don't work, Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll, the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit, the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously, Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields, Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12", Spore Mines have an infinite range, Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad, T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only), the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle, Genestealer Cults can no longer move after ambushing, you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it, single use weapons MUST be fired the first time a model shoots if they are in range and LOS, if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit, the Agents of Vect stratagem can be used by ANY Drukhari army, not just one with a Kabal of the Black Heart detachment, a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight, Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything, Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers, and Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- 
   
Made in us
One Canoptek Scarab in a Swarm




Schenectady, New York

Per the FAQ, <Fly> keyword models measure and move their charge distance diagonally when an enemy is in a ruin above them.
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




Norway.

This was always a thing. From Day 0 we've pointed out being elevated by 1.1" means you can't actually hit them.

You used to be able to argue "around" it with "wobbly model syndrome", but now there is nothing stopping it...

-Wibe. 
   
Made in de
Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws





Germany

 Gojiratoho wrote:
Per the FAQ, <Fly> keyword models measure and move their charge distance diagonally when an enemy is in a ruin above them.


That is not what the FAQ says. First part measuring, yes. Second part, charge move, no.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 p5freak wrote:
 Gojiratoho wrote:
Per the FAQ, <Fly> keyword models measure and move their charge distance diagonally when an enemy is in a ruin above them.


That is not what the FAQ says. First part measuring, yes. Second part, charge move, no.

I think that's what they ment it to say but once again failed to actually write what they ment.
   
Made in de
Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws





Germany

Ice_can wrote:

I think that's what they ment it to say but once again failed to actually write what they ment.


I can charge however i want to. Nothing in the rules tells me to charge diagonally. If the charged unit is 6" above ground, and my unit is 9" away diagonally, i can charge horizontally, and then vertical, which is free for FLY units. Which means i only need to roll a 6 on my charge roll.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 p5freak wrote:
Ice_can wrote:

I think that's what they ment it to say but once again failed to actually write what they ment.


I can charge however i want to. Nothing in the rules tells me to charge diagonally. If the charged unit is 6" above ground, and my unit is 9" away diagonally, i can charge horizontally, and then vertical, which is free for FLY units. Which means i only need to roll a 6 on my charge roll.


As I said that is what they have writen, but it flys in the face of the accepted must be more than 9 inchs away to deepstrike and I'm thought they already faq'd that you needed a 9 inch charge, to avoid the 9-1=8 stuff people where trying to claim.
   
Made in dk
Regular Dakkanaut



Denmark

Ice_can wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
Ice_can wrote:

I think that's what they ment it to say but once again failed to actually write what they ment.


I can charge however i want to. Nothing in the rules tells me to charge diagonally. If the charged unit is 6" above ground, and my unit is 9" away diagonally, i can charge horizontally, and then vertical, which is free for FLY units. Which means i only need to roll a 6 on my charge roll.


As I said that is what they have writen, but it flys in the face of the accepted must be more than 9 inchs away to deepstrike and I'm thought they already faq'd that you needed a 9 inch charge, to avoid the 9-1=8 stuff people where trying to claim.


Correct.
Q: A number of abilities allow a unit to arrive during the battle
and be set up more than 9" from any enemy models. If I use such
an ability to set up as close as allowed towards an enemy unit
and then select it as the target of the charge, what is the minimum
charge distance I need to roll to make a successful charge
(assuming no modifiers)?
A: 9.

It's a bit of a weird situation, but according to the BRB FAQ you always need 9" to charge enemy models when you arrive from reserve.

3000 point  
   
Made in gb
Gargantuan Gargant





Not true, that's referring to the basic rules that don't assume you can FLY.

If you can FLY, you ignore the vertical distance, regardless of how far you arrive.

Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written in the rulebook, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective.
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy, "minimum" ranges don't work, Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll, the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit, the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously, Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields, Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12", Spore Mines have an infinite range, Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad, T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only), the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle, Genestealer Cults can no longer move after ambushing, you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it, single use weapons MUST be fired the first time a model shoots if they are in range and LOS, if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit, the Agents of Vect stratagem can be used by ANY Drukhari army, not just one with a Kabal of the Black Heart detachment, a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight, Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything, Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers, and Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- 
   
 
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