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West Lafayette, IN

http://www.businessinsider.com/finland-to-end-basic-income-experiment-2018-4

When I first saw this story, I wanted to follow it with great interest. I was doing everything I could to make sure to keep track of it so I didn't forget about it when the results were announced. I didn't expect it to end this quick however. It doesn't look like it was too successful thus far, enough so that they pulled the plug to replace it with something more incentive based.

Since there are people from the region on the board, as well as proponents of this sort of entitlement, I would like to hear your thoughts on it.

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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
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It's an interesting concept. My issue is that it may not alleviate the problem for people who need the most help--those with mental illness, disability, or other unusual circumstance. But then, that isn't really the point either.

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On moon miranda.

It looks like it wasn't carried out in the manner or duration it was intended, the article doesn't appear to state why they stopped it and that analysis would be released...someday.

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avoiding the lorax on Crion

Just because this one failed does not mean it cannot work.

It just needs more time and refinement to work out how it needs to work, and how to make it benefit everyone.

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 jhe90 wrote:
Just because this one failed does not mean it cannot work.

It just needs more time and refinement to work out how it needs to work, and how to make it benefit everyone.

Sounds like every argument for communisms.



*being cheeky mate.... not having a go with you.




This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/20 18:33:46


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Probably work

Eh. It was an experiment. Experiments end and conclusions are drawn. Looks like they're moving on to another one. Sad to see that it didn't go according to the original plan. I do hope to read the results though if they're ever published.

I don't think it's fair to say that it "failed". At least not yet.

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Indeed, there's nothing saying they failed. I'm wondering if they learned some key detail quickly and are going to apply that to a new experiment.

"Putting a statement in quotations makes it seem more legitimate."
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Imagine three people with the same set of values but radically different emotional states, each of them believes their position is more valid than the other two, they all post using the same account, and your job is to make it coherent. 
   
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Why is this thread not called "Basic Income Finnish'd"?

   
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avoiding the lorax on Crion

 whembly wrote:
 jhe90 wrote:
Just because this one failed does not mean it cannot work.

It just needs more time and refinement to work out how it needs to work, and how to make it benefit everyone.

Sounds like every argument for communisms.



*being cheeky mate.... not having a go with you.








To the Gulag with you comrade.

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 Spinner wrote:
Why is this thread not called "Basic Income Finnish'd"?



Asking the hard hitting questions we all need answers to.

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 Spinner wrote:
Why is this thread not called "Basic Income Finnish'd"?



Oh you.

But yeah it Finishing doesn't really mean that it failed

though it ending early may point to it or is just incomplete which would be kind of a fail

hopefully they learned something from it.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

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 Spinner wrote:
Why is this thread not called "Basic Income Finnish'd"?



Here is your Basic Exalt Stipend. Well played Sir!

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We'll find out soon enough eh.

 Desubot wrote:
 Spinner wrote:
Why is this thread not called "Basic Income Finnish'd"?



Oh you.

But yeah it Finishing doesn't really mean that it failed

though it ending early may point to it or is just incomplete which would be kind of a fail

hopefully they learned something from it.


Indeed, government "pilots" and "consultations" don't only end because they failed to achieve their stated objective, sometimes they end because it looks like they were going to and achieving the stated objective was never the actual point of them existing(they're a lovely way to avoid actually doing anything of substance or impact and are usually inconclusive enough that they can be spun whichever way is most convenient). I'd be interested to see the data and the reasoning for pulling the plug, since prior feedback from it had apparently been positive.

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Oh, yes, elected officials will pull the plug on a successful program in a heartbeat if it furthers their political agenda.

For example. Colorado instituted a program that gave free reliable birth control to poor women. Over the course of five years the abortion rate in the state was halved and welfare expenses were reduced by more than enough to cover the cost of the program.

Then the Republicans took control of the state legislature and chopped the program. Not because it failed, but because it was working and in so doing making them look bad.

And I have no doubt the Democrats have done it as well. Just because I don't remember it doesn't mean it didn't happen; I'm sure there's someone here who can fill in the details I don't have.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/21 20:13:00


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West Lafayette, IN

 Yodhrin wrote:
 Desubot wrote:
 Spinner wrote:
Why is this thread not called "Basic Income Finnish'd"?



Oh you.

But yeah it Finishing doesn't really mean that it failed

though it ending early may point to it or is just incomplete which would be kind of a fail

hopefully they learned something from it.


Indeed, government "pilots" and "consultations" don't only end because they failed to achieve their stated objective, sometimes they end because it looks like they were going to and achieving the stated objective was never the actual point of them existing(they're a lovely way to avoid actually doing anything of substance or impact and are usually inconclusive enough that they can be spun whichever way is most convenient). I'd be interested to see the data and the reasoning for pulling the plug, since prior feedback from it had apparently been positive.


In the original article I posted, they said they were going to launch something similar that was more incentive based. To me, it smacks of the number of people who tried to find employment was probably much less than they had anticipated. I remember when the story first broke that they were implementing this program, they interviewed some of the participants, to show how they were going to gain employment while reaping this benefit. One of the people interviewed said that they planned to collect bottles from the beach nearby, paint them and sell them locally. If THAT was the typical kind of "employment" that was being sought, then I'm guessing they wanted to push for more taxable income in whatever employment was sought. Personally, I figured it would end this way, just not nearly this soon.

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 Just Tony wrote:

In the original article I posted, they said they were going to launch something similar that was more incentive based. To me, it smacks of the number of people who tried to find employment was probably much less than they had anticipated. I remember when the story first broke that they were implementing this program, they interviewed some of the participants, to show how they were going to gain employment while reaping this benefit. One of the people interviewed said that they planned to collect bottles from the beach nearby, paint them and sell them locally. If THAT was the typical kind of "employment" that was being sought, then I'm guessing they wanted to push for more taxable income in whatever employment was sought. Personally, I figured it would end this way, just not nearly this soon.

I think it's much more mundane than people not trying to find work. Note that the people who received this had already faced LONG term unemployment. So there are probably chronic reasons behind why those people are unemployed that some extra money isn't going to fix. The amount of money received, about 700 dollar a month isn't nearly enough to use to follow a study or training when you also have to pay rent, water and electricity, food etc.

These people already had great difficulty finding work before the program. Getting some extra money isn't going to magically create more jobs for them.

Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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 Disciple of Fate wrote:
These people already had great difficulty finding work before the program. Getting some extra money isn't going to magically create more jobs for them.


Besides, it wasn't really that much extra - the idea with "basic income" is just that it would replace all or most of the different social security payments you can apply for. Instead of visiting several bureaucrats to apply for unemployment benefits, rent subsidies and so on there would be a standard sum. Less bureacrats, less hoops to jump through, fewer forms to fill, more time to maybe find a job.

Except ofc many of our worst-off unemployed live in some backwoods where there's no jobs to find, in a house they can't sell because no one wants to move there.
   
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Yeah, reading the article it smells more of someone not like what it might say rather than it failing in and of itself. The Finnish government did a 180 on this last year after elections and decided to toss it rather than expand it to include all unemployed, and then harshly punish the existing unemployed by increased hours working or lose benefits.

Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/22 18:45:43



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I'm not surprised it ended, welfare is a political mess at the best of times. And this experiment was pretty out there - picking a random set of unemployed people and giving them money no questions asked, and later expanding that to give them the same money no questions asked feels more like an economics lab experiment that somehow blundered into millions in government funding than an actual policy option.

I mean, how do you have a universal basic income when you're giving it to a couple of thousand people. There's nothing universal about that.

That said, this does show a key problem with any kind of universal basic income - in order to fund UBI you have to unwind a few hundred schemes, from welfare to housing allowances, from subsidized electricity to pensioner discounts on property rates. Doing that in one big sweep is near impossible. Failing to do that all at once means you won't have anywhere near the money to actually pay for UBI. The problem isn't that UBI can't work*, the problem is getting there from where we are now.




*Can't work at some point, in the medium to long term future. I don't think we're there yet.

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 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:

In the original article I posted, they said they were going to launch something similar that was more incentive based. To me, it smacks of the number of people who tried to find employment was probably much less than they had anticipated. I remember when the story first broke that they were implementing this program, they interviewed some of the participants, to show how they were going to gain employment while reaping this benefit. One of the people interviewed said that they planned to collect bottles from the beach nearby, paint them and sell them locally. If THAT was the typical kind of "employment" that was being sought, then I'm guessing they wanted to push for more taxable income in whatever employment was sought. Personally, I figured it would end this way, just not nearly this soon.

I think it's much more mundane than people not trying to find work. Note that the people who received this had already faced LONG term unemployment. So there are probably chronic reasons behind why those people are unemployed that some extra money isn't going to fix. The amount of money received, about 700 dollar a month isn't nearly enough to use to follow a study or training when you also have to pay rent, water and electricity, food etc.

These people already had great difficulty finding work before the program. Getting some extra money isn't going to magically create more jobs for them.


That wasn't really extra money though. Sum is about what they would have received anyway. What was different was that it was not deducted at all if you went to job. As it is if you don't get full 8h a day, 5 days a week job but have to settle on odd jobs here and there it's quite possible that after taxes and unemployment/housing support fees gets reduced you ended up having same or even LESS money than without work. Obviously not great incentive to find a work...Find a work, get 200€, lose 250€. Gee thanks a lot. With new system that 200€ would be 200€ extra period.

Real example: About 10 years ago or so I went for summer job. Was unemployed at the time. I had calculated my yearly income don't quite exceed the limit so I was safe. Yey! Extra money and get required time for school to graduate. Fast forward end of the period. Boss was about to come back from holiday and my work end. Except he got seriously ill on last week. Over 40 degrees fever and whatnot he picked on the vacation. I was asked would I be willing to continue a bit. Sure no problem. Except I calculated what I would earn and realized that I could do work for 4 days. On 5th I would actually end up PAYING for doing work. I would still have been willing to do it provided they dont' pay for me or I get hefty paydrop for last week. Hell give me just dinner on the last week and I'll do it. Silly as hell but...

So basically if you search no job it's +-0 pretty much(might have been bit less actually. Been a while since I was unemployed so I don't recall exactly how much I received back then). If you get job, even if it's like 4 hours per week, you will benefit.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/23 06:08:00


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tneva82 wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:

In the original article I posted, they said they were going to launch something similar that was more incentive based. To me, it smacks of the number of people who tried to find employment was probably much less than they had anticipated. I remember when the story first broke that they were implementing this program, they interviewed some of the participants, to show how they were going to gain employment while reaping this benefit. One of the people interviewed said that they planned to collect bottles from the beach nearby, paint them and sell them locally. If THAT was the typical kind of "employment" that was being sought, then I'm guessing they wanted to push for more taxable income in whatever employment was sought. Personally, I figured it would end this way, just not nearly this soon.

I think it's much more mundane than people not trying to find work. Note that the people who received this had already faced LONG term unemployment. So there are probably chronic reasons behind why those people are unemployed that some extra money isn't going to fix. The amount of money received, about 700 dollar a month isn't nearly enough to use to follow a study or training when you also have to pay rent, water and electricity, food etc.

These people already had great difficulty finding work before the program. Getting some extra money isn't going to magically create more jobs for them.


That wasn't really extra money though. Sum is about what they would have received anyway. What was different was that it was not deducted at all if you went to job. As it is if you don't get full 8h a day, 5 days a week job but have to settle on odd jobs here and there it's quite possible that after taxes and unemployment/housing support fees gets reduced you ended up having same or even LESS money than without work. Obviously not great incentive to find a work...Find a work, get 200€, lose 250€. Gee thanks a lot. With new system that 200€ would be 200€ extra period.

Real example: About 10 years ago or so I went for summer job. Was unemployed at the time. I had calculated my yearly income don't quite exceed the limit so I was safe. Yey! Extra money and get required time for school to graduate. Fast forward end of the period. Boss was about to come back from holiday and my work end. Except he got seriously ill on last week. Over 40 degrees fever and whatnot he picked on the vacation. I was asked would I be willing to continue a bit. Sure no problem. Except I calculated what I would earn and realized that I could do work for 4 days. On 5th I would actually end up PAYING for doing work. I would still have been willing to do it provided they dont' pay for me or I get hefty paydrop for last week. Hell give me just dinner on the last week and I'll do it. Silly as hell but...

So basically if you search no job it's +-0 pretty much(might have been bit less actually. Been a while since I was unemployed so I don't recall exactly how much I received back then). If you get job, even if it's like 4 hours per week, you will benefit.

Sorry, you misunderstand, perhaps because of my wording. It's extra money in the context of them keeping it if they get a job. But that extra money isn't going to pull long term unemployed people out of unemployment because those people are almost never unemployed because they wouldn't get enough money. These people are unemployed for reasons (skill set, age, job market demand) that go far beyond some extra numbers on a paycheck is what I'm saying, hence 'extra' money isn't going to help.

Your example is a great... example of the reasons beyond extra money. There are structural issues in the current day job market that need fixing before schemes like the extra money one would actually have some effect. Extra money won't magically create viable jobs for people who have already been unemployed for years.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/04/23 09:24:32


Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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West Lafayette, IN

Assuming, of course, that everyone on long term unemployment is on it because of those reasons, and not to collect benefits. I think it's the nature of any entitlement that there will always be people to abuse it.

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Somewhere in southern England.

Everyone (in the UK) has got this image of the professional unemployed benefits claimant based on TV programmes like Rab C Nesbitt or Shameless. There probably are similar characters in any country's TV in the world.

IDK what proportion of the unemployed really are like that. I would guess that the majority of the unemployed are unemployed for "good" reasons, and deserve social help.

I don't think the presence of a minority of freeloaders invalidates the basic pronciple.

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West Lafayette, IN

I myself was on unemployment in '09 due to damn near everyone laying off at the time. I needed it, and took advantage when I needed it. I also got off of it the first second I could find work. There are some people in my local area that have been on it for years. Several companies are having trouble getting people to apply and there are people that have sat on unemployment for years. I know some personally, it isn't because of some physical or skill issue that bars them from applying. And I doubt that my locale is the only magical place where that sort of thing happens.


I think the issue with the program in Finland was the "no strings attached" portion of it.

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 Just Tony wrote:
Assuming, of course, that everyone on long term unemployment is on it because of those reasons, and not to collect benefits. I think it's the nature of any entitlement that there will always be people to abuse it.

Sure, some people will always abuse a system. But lets not assume the majority is doing so because there is nothing to back up some assumption like that. So let me rephrase: most people in long term unemployment face structural problems that go beyond something some extra money would fix.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Just Tony wrote:
I myself was on unemployment in '09 due to damn near everyone laying off at the time. I needed it, and took advantage when I needed it. I also got off of it the first second I could find work. There are some people in my local area that have been on it for years. Several companies are having trouble getting people to apply and there are people that have sat on unemployment for years. I know some personally, it isn't because of some physical or skill issue that bars them from applying. And I doubt that my locale is the only magical place where that sort of thing happens.


I think the issue with the program in Finland was the "no strings attached" portion of it.

Your issue sounds more like a company issue to be fair. If the job pays like gak or has gak conditions, why take a hit like that? From personal experience, a 40 hour a week back breaking and mentally exhausting minimum wage job sometimes just doesn't appeal. To be fair I did a job like that, but it wouldn't be a long term job for people who like their physical health. Those kinds of jobs offer a disproportionate wage in relation to the demands of the job.

Is that an issue with unemployment being to lenient or companies having unrealistic expectations of their employees?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/23 11:48:40


Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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Elverson, PA

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
Assuming, of course, that everyone on long term unemployment is on it because of those reasons, and not to collect benefits. I think it's the nature of any entitlement that there will always be people to abuse it.

Sure, some people will always abuse a system. But lets not assume the majority is doing so because there is nothing to back up some assumption like that. So let me rephrase: most people in long term unemployment face structural problems that go beyond something some extra money would fix.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Just Tony wrote:
I myself was on unemployment in '09 due to damn near everyone laying off at the time. I needed it, and took advantage when I needed it. I also got off of it the first second I could find work. There are some people in my local area that have been on it for years. Several companies are having trouble getting people to apply and there are people that have sat on unemployment for years. I know some personally, it isn't because of some physical or skill issue that bars them from applying. And I doubt that my locale is the only magical place where that sort of thing happens.


I think the issue with the program in Finland was the "no strings attached" portion of it.

Your issue sounds more like a company issue to be fair. If the job pays like gak or has gak conditions, why take a hit like that? From personal experience, a 40 hour a week back breaking and mentally exhausting minimum wage job sometimes just doesn't appeal. To be fair I did a job like that, but it wouldn't be a long term job for people who like their physical health. Those kinds of jobs offer a disproportionate wage in relation to the demands of the job.

Is that an issue with unemployment being to lenient or companies having unrealistic expectations of their employees?


In the US, unemployment is done by the state, not the feds, so it depends on who you are asking. In Pennsylvania, they make you sign up for their job site and put in a minimum number of applications per week, otherwise you lose your benefits. Unfortunately a lot of these are minimum wage jobs doing retail work, so if you are like me and lost your factory job that paid well, you made more on unemployment than you did working retail. I applied to my minimum of 2 places per week while I had a friend line up my current job, which can actually support my family.

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Some of the unemployment is supported by the federal government as well. The unemployment tax that your employer pays pays some to the state and some to the federal government with a credit for paying towards the state UI that takes care of most of it.

I will say, in New York, for the first x amount of time you have to take a job in your field if it's offered to you. After Y amount of time you have to take any job.

The biggest issue is if you do anything 'productive' including volunteering or taking a 1 hour shift somewhere, you lose 1/4 of your weekly pay for any day in which you did something.
   
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 Just Tony wrote:
I myself was on unemployment in '09 due to damn near everyone laying off at the time. I needed it, and took advantage when I needed it. I also got off of it the first second I could find work. There are some people in my local area that have been on it for years.


Isn't there a 26 week limit in Indiana? I know that was extended temporarily during the worst of the recession, but how does "years" happen?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





There is a program (Not sure if it's in all states) where if you were going back to school to learn a new trade that the unemployment time is extended. Don't think it would go on for years though.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




North Carolina

 Ouze wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
I myself was on unemployment in '09 due to damn near everyone laying off at the time. I needed it, and took advantage when I needed it. I also got off of it the first second I could find work. There are some people in my local area that have been on it for years.


Isn't there a 26 week limit in Indiana? I know that was extended temporarily during the worst of the recession, but how does "years" happen?


They probably switched from unemployment to social security disability.

Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
 
   
 
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