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A buddy of mine seems adamant that the recent faq superceding the T'au stim injectors with the codex strat is a red flag to indicate that the end of the index is much closer than we think and will probably be done once the codex cycle is complete.

Do you guys think this is likely to be true? I'm halfway through making some conversion beamer techmarines and I'd rather not throw them away.

With so many niche legacy models hidden iin indexes, I doubt it. Sure the indexes are already 99% obsolete, but for people like CSM its your only way to field knights.

Seeing they have plenty of units and options you can't field with codex...No.

But the very clear point from GW is that the indexes are for legacy gamers who have spent years collecting/converting models that they have never actually produced. The indexes are a nod to those gamers but are GW going to continue using them. I think the worst thing fro GW is for gamers to go and buy models from elsewhere to use their rules. I'm certain the index will go but I always thought it would ride out this edition.

With the way this faq has made sweeping changed to the game, removing the indexes must be on their roadmap for the future. It cannot be done while there are still armies with dexes but once thats done I could easily see the next faq/chapter approved just ruling that in matched play index is no longer valid but go nuts in narrative if you want.

They get to sell more books. What's more fun for GW than selling 1 book for each player? Selling 2 books!

 nurgle86 wrote:
But the very clear point from GW is that the indexes are for legacy gamers who have spent years collecting/converting models that they have never actually produced. The indexes are a nod to those gamers but are GW going to continue using them. I think the worst thing fro GW is for gamers to go and buy models from elsewhere to use their rules. I'm certain the index will go but I always thought it would ride out this edition.

With the way this faq has made sweeping changed to the game, removing the indexes must be on their roadmap for the future. It cannot be done while there are still armies with dexes but once thats done I could easily see the next faq/chapter approved just ruling that in matched play index is no longer valid but go nuts in narrative if you want.

It's unfortunately the way I see it indexes will be retired from match play by the end of 2019 if not sooner.
While it's annoying, it's not exactlly surprising, my question will be what they do with the now leftover subfactions such as SofS Inquisition, assasins and Chaos knights. I suspect the imperial knights codex will probably give a clue if it includes the ability to use knights dor choas.
I expect that new primaris stuff will be on the way aswell. And we might see the marine codex split into Adaptus Astartes and Adaptus Primaris. So every marine play will need 2 new books anyway.

Hard to say. I don't think they will ever truly invalidate the indices because they want people to be able to use their models. What I could see happening is them releasing Organized play suggestions (or even matched play suggestions) that index units no longer be allowed in organized play as they will not be reviewing the points on those units going forward. Or perhaps even doing what they have done to FW and raising points on index only options to make them basically open/narrative only options.

I'm not sure why anyone would think the one has any bearing on the other. Obviously stim injectors were faq'd because they intended to replace the wargear with the stratagem and their current rules on using the index for old wargear options would have allowed the wargear to be taken anyway. That's pretty different from other cases where they just don't include the unit or wargear in the codex but aren't coming up with new rules for the same fluff concept elsewhere.

I suspect so.

It seems to me that maybe it might come as soon as CA2018. We know that SOB are getting some "beta" rules then. Maybe that's because the indexes will be retired from Match Play then.

(or maybe its just that SOB will get new units?)

 nurgle86 wrote:
But the very clear point from GW is that the indexes are for legacy gamers who have spent years collecting/converting models that they have never actually produced. The indexes are a nod to those gamers but are GW going to continue using them. I think the worst thing fro GW is for gamers to go and buy models from elsewhere to use their rules. I'm certain the index will go but I always thought it would ride out this edition.

With the way this faq has made sweeping changed to the game, removing the indexes must be on their roadmap for the future. It cannot be done while there are still armies with dexes but once thats done I could easily see the next faq/chapter approved just ruling that in matched play index is no longer valid but go nuts in narrative if you want.

Stimulant Injectors were something that you never really saw modeled. It's not the same situation at all, especially because Stimulant Injector still exists--it's just a Stratagem now rather than Wargear.

That's all the FAQ did. It made it so no, you cannot use Stimulant Injectors because it's a Stratagem now.

Herbington wrote:
I suspect so.

It seems to me that maybe it might come as soon as CA2018. We know that SOB are getting some "beta" rules then. Maybe that's because the indexes will be retired from Match Play then.

(or maybe its just that SOB will get new units?)

Have they announced SoB rules in beta in the next Chapter approved? I hadn't seen that anywhere.

I think the stim injector thing creates a precedent against the index longevity. I agree it is a massive leap to get from this precedent to the termination of indexes but people need to remember that the major differences between index and codex in almost every army is models GW makes and models they don't make. From a business point of view why should they continue to support rules for models they don't make and in some cases, have never made.

The faq on las/plas razorback also kinda hurts and they've never made that weapon option before.

 nurgle86 wrote:

Herbington wrote:
I suspect so.

It seems to me that maybe it might come as soon as CA2018. We know that SOB are getting some "beta" rules then. Maybe that's because the indexes will be retired from Match Play then.

(or maybe its just that SOB will get new units?)

Have they announced SoB rules in beta in the next Chapter approved? I hadn't seen that anywhere.

I think the stim injector thing creates a precedent against the index longevity. I agree it is a massive leap to get from this precedent to the termination of indexes but people need to remember that the major differences between index and codex in almost every army is models GW makes and models they don't make. From a business point of view why should they continue to support rules for models they don't make and in some cases, have never made.

The faq on las/plas razorback also kinda hurts and they've never made that weapon option before.

I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere, but going back to the announcement I can't see it. It must have been in the post-announcement Q&A session. Or I dreamt it.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 nurgle86 wrote:
But the very clear point from GW is that the indexes are for legacy gamers who have spent years collecting/converting models that they have never actually produced. The indexes are a nod to those gamers but are GW going to continue using them. I think the worst thing fro GW is for gamers to go and buy models from elsewhere to use their rules. I'm certain the index will go but I always thought it would ride out this edition.

With the way this faq has made sweeping changed to the game, removing the indexes must be on their roadmap for the future. It cannot be done while there are still armies with dexes but once thats done I could easily see the next faq/chapter approved just ruling that in matched play index is no longer valid but go nuts in narrative if you want.

Stimulant Injectors were something that you never really saw modeled. It's not the same situation at all, especially because Stimulant Injector still exists--it's just a Stratagem now rather than Wargear.

That's all the FAQ did. It made it so no, you cannot use Stimulant Injectors because it's a Stratagem now.

I always thought of stim injectors like toxin sacs and adrenal glands on tyranids but nids actually had bits in the kit that you could model these with except no one bothered with that. Did stim injectors have a special bit in the kit that you could add to the models?

Herbington wrote:

 nurgle86 wrote:

Herbington wrote:
I suspect so.

It seems to me that maybe it might come as soon as CA2018. We know that SOB are getting some "beta" rules then. Maybe that's because the indexes will be retired from Match Play then.

(or maybe its just that SOB will get new units?)

Have they announced SoB rules in beta in the next Chapter approved? I hadn't seen that anywhere.

I think the stim injector thing creates a precedent against the index longevity. I agree it is a massive leap to get from this precedent to the termination of indexes but people need to remember that the major differences between index and codex in almost every army is models GW makes and models they don't make. From a business point of view why should they continue to support rules for models they don't make and in some cases, have never made.

The faq on las/plas razorback also kinda hurts and they've never made that weapon option before.

I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere, but going back to the announcement I can't see it. It must have been in the post-announcement Q&A session. Or I dreamt it.

It was at Adepticon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 nurgle86 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 nurgle86 wrote:
But the very clear point from GW is that the indexes are for legacy gamers who have spent years collecting/converting models that they have never actually produced. The indexes are a nod to those gamers but are GW going to continue using them. I think the worst thing fro GW is for gamers to go and buy models from elsewhere to use their rules. I'm certain the index will go but I always thought it would ride out this edition.

With the way this faq has made sweeping changed to the game, removing the indexes must be on their roadmap for the future. It cannot be done while there are still armies with dexes but once thats done I could easily see the next faq/chapter approved just ruling that in matched play index is no longer valid but go nuts in narrative if you want.

Stimulant Injectors were something that you never really saw modeled. It's not the same situation at all, especially because Stimulant Injector still exists--it's just a Stratagem now rather than Wargear.

That's all the FAQ did. It made it so no, you cannot use Stimulant Injectors because it's a Stratagem now.

I always thought of stim injectors like toxin sacs and adrenal glands on tyranids but nids actually had bits in the kit that you could model these with except no one bothered with that. Did stim injectors have a special bit in the kit that you could add to the models?

None that I know of in current kits. I think maybe the metal/plastic hybrid Commander box could.

They where never modelled, on any suit that could take them.
They where however the only defence tau suits had against mortal wound spam.
Which is now getting out of hand as they keep handing out better invulnerable saves, and then counter it with excessive mortal wounds for everything.
It sets a precedent that if it shares a name its the same thing and the flow chart no longer allows you access to the index version.

People took them for a good reason but that said at this point (unless your a pointy ear) units are still veing punished for their 7th edition profiles, GW's own doing and power creep is still in full swing.

Ice_can wrote:
They where never modelled, on any suit that could take them.
They where however the only defence tau suits had against mortal wound spam.
Which is now getting out of hand as they keep handing out better invulnerable saves, and then counter it with excessive mortal wounds for everything.
It sets a precedent that if it shares a name its the same thing and the flow chart no longer allows you access to the index version.

People took them for a good reason but that said at this point (unless your a pointy ear) units are still veing punished for their 7th edition profiles, GW's own doing and power creep is still in full swing.

Let's be perfectly clear and upfront about this.

People weren't putting Stimulant Injectors on many things. It was Riptides that were the problem. It was never a case of "the only defence Tau suits had against mortal wound spam", it's that Riptides used them to cheese their penalty.

Now that you can return Wounds to stuff like Riptides via a Stratagem, Stimulant Injectors aren't going to be playing as big of a role with regards to Nova Charging.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
They where never modelled, on any suit that could take them.
They where however the only defence tau suits had against mortal wound spam.
Which is now getting out of hand as they keep handing out better invulnerable saves, and then counter it with excessive mortal wounds for everything.
It sets a precedent that if it shares a name its the same thing and the flow chart no longer allows you access to the index version.

People took them for a good reason but that said at this point (unless your a pointy ear) units are still veing punished for their 7th edition profiles, GW's own doing and power creep is still in full swing.

Let's be perfectly clear and upfront about this.

People weren't putting Stimulant Injectors on many things. It was Riptides that were the problem. It was never a case of "the only defence Tau suits had against mortal wound spam", it's that Riptides used them to cheese their penalty.

Now that you can return Wounds to stuff like Riptides via a Stratagem, Stimulant Injectors aren't going to be playing as big of a role with regards to Nova Charging.

Personally I couldn't give a frack about losing a wound or two to choosing to nova charge. It's a choice you make risk vrs reward.
Also that was esentially a 7th edition problem.

I object to my ghostkeels, commanders and riptides just becoming a psykers wet dream target.

Please tell me exactly what I've missed as a way to mitigate taking 6 to 8 wounds a turn with no comeback appart from suicide charging in a commander? To if I can possition correctly kill 1 model then die.

Ice_can wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
They where never modelled, on any suit that could take them.
They where however the only defence tau suits had against mortal wound spam.
Which is now getting out of hand as they keep handing out better invulnerable saves, and then counter it with excessive mortal wounds for everything.
It sets a precedent that if it shares a name its the same thing and the flow chart no longer allows you access to the index version.

People took them for a good reason but that said at this point (unless your a pointy ear) units are still veing punished for their 7th edition profiles, GW's own doing and power creep is still in full swing.

Let's be perfectly clear and upfront about this.

People weren't putting Stimulant Injectors on many things. It was Riptides that were the problem. It was never a case of "the only defence Tau suits had against mortal wound spam", it's that Riptides used them to cheese their penalty.

Now that you can return Wounds to stuff like Riptides via a Stratagem, Stimulant Injectors aren't going to be playing as big of a role with regards to Nova Charging.

Personally I couldn't give a frack about losing a wound or two to choosing to nova charge. It's a choice you make risk vrs reward.
Also that was esentially a 7th edition problem.

I object to my ghostkeels, commanders and riptides just becoming a psykers wet dream target.

Please tell me exactly what I've missed as a way to mitigate taking 6 to 8 wounds a turn with no comeback appart from suicide charging in a commander? To if I can possition correctly kill 1 model then die.

The best way to avoid taking 6 to 8 wounds a turn with no comeback is to bring shield drones.

Or eat the wounds, then rapidfire the hell out of whoever put that many costly pskyers that close to your big guy. The big guy might be dead, but they just did the psyker equivelent of a plasma drop.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Ice_can wrote:


Please tell me exactly what I've missed as a way to mitigate taking 6 to 8 wounds a turn with no comeback appart from suicide charging in a commander? To if I can possition correctly kill 1 model then die.

The best way to avoid taking 6 to 8 wounds a turn with no comeback is to bring shield drones.

What he said, and the automated repair stratagem.

Ice_can wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
They where never modelled, on any suit that could take them.
They where however the only defence tau suits had against mortal wound spam.
Which is now getting out of hand as they keep handing out better invulnerable saves, and then counter it with excessive mortal wounds for everything.
It sets a precedent that if it shares a name its the same thing and the flow chart no longer allows you access to the index version.

People took them for a good reason but that said at this point (unless your a pointy ear) units are still veing punished for their 7th edition profiles, GW's own doing and power creep is still in full swing.

Let's be perfectly clear and upfront about this.

People weren't putting Stimulant Injectors on many things. It was Riptides that were the problem. It was never a case of "the only defence Tau suits had against mortal wound spam", it's that Riptides used them to cheese their penalty.

Now that you can return Wounds to stuff like Riptides via a Stratagem, Stimulant Injectors aren't going to be playing as big of a role with regards to Nova Charging.

Personally I couldn't give a frack about losing a wound or two to choosing to nova charge. It's a choice you make risk vrs reward.
Also that was esentially a 7th edition problem.

I object to my ghostkeels, commanders and riptides just becoming a psykers wet dream target.

So kill the Psyker first?

Please tell me exactly what I've missed as a way to mitigate taking 6 to 8 wounds a turn with no comeback appart from suicide charging in a commander? To if I can possition correctly kill 1 model then die.

Shield Drones, Gun Drones, Marker Drones...basically Drones! Drones! Drones!

Also you can throw a Shield Generator on the Commander himself.

 nurgle86 wrote:
The faq on las/plas razorback also kinda hurts and they've never made that weapon option before.

Never say never. The Las/plasma turret was on the older predator models. It was metal. Easily made with extra bits from the Storm Raven.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
They where never modelled, on any suit that could take them.
They where however the only defence tau suits had against mortal wound spam.
Which is now getting out of hand as they keep handing out better invulnerable saves, and then counter it with excessive mortal wounds for everything.
It sets a precedent that if it shares a name its the same thing and the flow chart no longer allows you access to the index version.

People took them for a good reason but that said at this point (unless your a pointy ear) units are still veing punished for their 7th edition profiles, GW's own doing and power creep is still in full swing.

Let's be perfectly clear and upfront about this.

People weren't putting Stimulant Injectors on many things. It was Riptides that were the problem. It was never a case of "the only defence Tau suits had against mortal wound spam", it's that Riptides used them to cheese their penalty.

Now that you can return Wounds to stuff like Riptides via a Stratagem, Stimulant Injectors aren't going to be playing as big of a role with regards to Nova Charging.

Personally I couldn't give a frack about losing a wound or two to choosing to nova charge. It's a choice you make risk vrs reward.
Also that was esentially a 7th edition problem.

I object to my ghostkeels, commanders and riptides just becoming a psykers wet dream target.

Please tell me exactly what I've missed as a way to mitigate taking 6 to 8 wounds a turn with no comeback appart from suicide charging in a commander? To if I can possition correctly kill 1 model then die.

The best way to avoid taking 6 to 8 wounds a turn with no comeback is to bring shield drones.

Also, for more gunline style battlesuits like Riptides and Broadsides, you can keep an Ethereal nearby for a 6+ FNP. Smiting a Ghostkeel remains effective, though.

Yeah a lot of units and gear will likely still be only available in index. For guard the Power Maul doesn't show up in the codex, so gotta use the index. And Rough Riders were entirely absent in the codex so again, a use for the index. Conspiracy alert, tin foil hats at the ready: I think these things may have been done purely to keep selling indexes.

Coukd someone explain what he means by Stim Injectors and why i4 might show the end of the index?

A stim injector is a piece of wargear from the index, which has no model. Since the codex it is now a stratagem. The FAQ has invalidated the index option. His "Friend" believes this to be evidence that the indexes will be invalidated in the near future.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
A stim injector is a piece of wargear from the index, which has no model. Since the codex it is now a stratagem. The FAQ has invalidated the index option. His "Friend" believes this to be evidence that the indexes will be invalidated in the near future.

I am of two minds about things like this:
Should we accept that things change? Like the auspex, which when I played space marines allowed a unit to get a free shooting round at each enemy unit within 4d6 of the unit with the auspex before turn one. Then became a piece of warhead that reduced cover saves by one and now do (?)?
Should we go back to the 7th ed rulebooks for stuff like blacksun filters and jet packs?

AoS got rid of their indices.

 lolman1c wrote:
Coukd someone explain what he means by Stim Injectors and why i4 might show the end of the index?

Stim Injectors were wargear for battlesuits in the index.

In the codex, their rule was changed to a stratagem called "Stimulant Injector" and the wargear wasn't an option anymore.

GW released a FAQ clarifying that the current rule for stimulant injectors was a stratagem, so the rules for the wargear couldn't be used anymore.

Ahhh, yes this is my problem with 8th edition and 2hat makes me super scared for Orks. All the cool upgrades we used to get are being turned into strategiems. In my mind this has a few negative effects. For one, it takes away options and just dedicates these options to things you can only use once per phase. And two, it's a little lazy and it takes up space of potentially cool orginal starts.