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I play against harlequins quite often. They seem to be pretty loaded already but are just paying to much for their basic trooper. I really fear what kind of special rules they are going to get though because they already ignore most of the penalties the game puts out - plus they have -1 to hit and -1 to wound auras and 4++ saves and almost every unit can take a fusion pistol. This army can potentially become broken with just minor tweaks - they already assault me turn 1 almost every game with a ton of fusion pistols to kill characters and vheicals. They just lose out on attrition usually vs anything with weight of fire.

Throw out some ideas so we can discuss them.

The ability to take the enemy models off the board fast enough?

They suffer from the same issue as anything paying a lot of points base in 8th has, more points on tax units for detachments means few detachments, less CP, less strategums (post codex) and the losses hurt more.
But if they are that close strategums should get them over that tiping point ( I haven't played against a Harley army yet)

The entire army minus their vehicals can advance shoot and charge in the same turn.
The entire army ignores enemy models in the movement phase as well as vertical distance.
The entire army can fall back and shoot and charge - vehicals don't gain this ability but they do have fly.
The entire army has 4++ saves and has str 5 -2 AP weapons with 4 attacks each - power weapons and fusion pistols.
Reroll wounds aura from their basic HQ character which can be spammed and fits in their 6 man capacity venom.
All their t3 infantry benifit from -1 to wound aura (this cancels any proc on 6 to wound ability) and effectively gives them the durability of t5-t6 infantry.
They have a double move ability like quicken.


If they get point cost reductions like DE did. It really scares me.

An actual HQ would be lovely.

They need to be rolled back into the normal Eldar codex?

pm713 wrote:
An actual HQ would be lovely.

Whats wrong with the troop master?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elbows wrote:
They need to be rolled back into the normal Eldar codex?

I actually agree with this. No idea why they made this a stand alone army with like 5 models.

 Xenomancers wrote:

pm713 wrote:
An actual HQ would be lovely.

Whats wrong with the troop master?

It's really weird having your sergeant lead the army. It's like removing space marine sergeants as part of the unit and making them hq's. The only reason there isn't one is because GW decided not to bother so you had to buy crappy voidweavers in 7th.

Basic troops are too expensive. A lower base cost (but higher special weapon/pistol cost) would help a bit.
Another troop choice of weaker troopers (like mimes, especially if they get some infiltration, no invul and limited access to special stuff) would be even better, but that's not going to happen with the codex.

Fusion pistols are good, but very easily shut down by screens because of their very short range. That's where the neuro disruptor should fill in: higher range, and good against everything non-vehicle (assuming it gets its "wound on 2+ against non-vehicles" rule back). I still believe there was a typo in the index, because a 10pts S3 gun just doesn't make any sense.

They also struggle against high toughness. The only answer is mass fusion, with all its problems and blandness. One of the melee weapons should be good against high T targets. Either the kiss with a single powerful attack (like in 7th), or something that wounds on a fixed value/autowounds, like caresses in 7th. The three melee weapons are way too similar (and bland) at the moment, it's a missed opportunity.

Haywire cannons need to change a lot, and become a real anti-tank option. It would make Skyweavers viable as an anti-tank/harassing units, and decrease the fusion pistol dependence.

I would love to see foot harlies become a somewhat decent option. Maybe a psychic power like the 7th ed. primaris (if you want to shoot at a unit affected by this power, you roll 2D6, and if the unit is further than that, you can't shoot). Maybe a Masque tactic that makes it better: Shadowseers from this masque could get a different aura that provides protection from shooting in some way. Either the 7th ed. primaris effect, or a -1 to hit (although I'm not really fan of that).

So basically anything that gives variety, as opposed to "players w/ fusions and embraces/carresses in Weavers".

Death jesters need to be reworked a lot too. Their special rule is pretty useless, so they're just a walking shuricannon. I think they need to have a real anti-horde weapon. A number of hits that depends on unit size for instance (to simulate a poisonous gas cloud), or anything that gives them something special.

Solitaires are pretty meh, and really don't feel like the melee beasts they should be. If the kiss or the caress get changed a lot, it might solve the issue a bit. Otherwise it needs something to wound more reliably (like a innate +1 to wound or something), or to have something special like lower invul saves. You can't take more than one per army, so it can be beefy with great rules and a high point cost (I wouldn't mind a 300pts solitaire if the profile matched the cost).

And of course some point drops for some stuff. Mostly Skyweavers (unless they get more attacks and a great Masque tactic to help them), and Starweavers (how can they be so much more expensive than Raiders?).

Sadly with the way 8th ed. works, I think you're supposed to run your Harlies with a Kabal battalion (2 raiders, 3 5-men kabalites with blasters, 2 archons with blasters is something like 500pts, and you can add Ravagers if you want) or a CWE flyer wing or any min-maxed Aeldari ally.

pm713 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

pm713 wrote:
An actual HQ would be lovely.

Whats wrong with the troop master?

It's really weird having your sergeant lead the army. It's like removing space marine sergeants as part of the unit and making them hq's. The only reason there isn't one is because GW decided not to bother so you had to buy crappy voidweavers in 7th.

He might be a sargent level in the lore but his stats are actually better than an archon or an autarch - has more attacks and a better aura.

They need some variety. There is really only one way to play them with a chance at winning, and that's fusion pistol squads in starweavers. Without fusion pistols, the army is very difficult to play effectively because there is no way to deal with high toughness models. Here are some things I would like to see:

- Zephyr Glaives become Str 5 or 6 on the charge and then function at str 3 or 4 afterwards.
- Voidweavers get a rule that allows them to ignore penalties for moving with heavy weapons
- Haywire cannons get the old armorbane rule and wound vehicles on 2+ combined with the mortal wounds rule they currently have
- Death Jesters get their two shooting profiles combined, and their weapon gets a close combat profile. Maybe +1S and -1/2 AP

Thoughts?

@fresus - I agree - they need more variety in their weapons. Some weapon that has + str and multi damage would help.

Deathjester needs buff

Maybe allow the weavers top cannon to be upgraded to a star cannon or bright lance type weapon would be good too. I also like the idea of decreasing base trooper cost but increasing pistols cost.

 Xenomancers wrote:
The entire army minus their vehicals can advance shoot and charge in the same turn.
The entire army ignores enemy models in the movement phase as well as vertical distance.
The entire army can fall back and shoot and charge - vehicals don't gain this ability but they do have fly.
The entire army has 4++ saves and has str 5 -2 AP weapons with 4 attacks each - power weapons and fusion pistols.
Reroll wounds aura from their basic HQ character which can be spammed and fits in their 6 man capacity venom.
All their t3 infantry benifit from -1 to wound aura (this cancels any proc on 6 to wound ability) and effectively gives them the durability of t5-t6 infantry.
They have a double move ability like quicken.


If they get point cost reductions like DE did. It really scares me.

1) The whole army cannot assault and shoot and charge. They can advance and CHARGE, but pistols/Heavy weapons (many of their ranged weapons) cannot advance and shoot, and Rising Crescendo gives no special permission to do so.

2) flip belts allow you to move across terrain as if it were not there, but gives no permission to ignore vertical distance. Fly (post-FAQ) allows you to ignore vertical distance when making Charge moves, but notably Flip Belts are not Fly.

3) Troupes, Solitaires and Troupe masters *may* take S5 AP-2 weapons as an upgrade for I think 7 points? Death Jesters, all the vehicles obviously, Skyweavers and Shadowseers don't have that.

4) The -1 to wound ability actually gives them the durability of T4 infantry against most weapons, not T5-T6, I'm not sure where you're getting that. Lasguns wound on 5s. boltguns wound on 4s. S6+ weaponry wounds on 3s. They have only two strength values that makes them equivalent to T5, and that is vs S5 and S8+.

All that aside, you're right - the army is not in a bad spot right now as a whole. It's got the following big holes, in my eyes. I'll start with the "this thing is underpowered" problems:

-Neuro pistols are straight up trash, as in one of the funniest weapon comparisons in the entire game right now. S8, AP-4, R6", D6 damage with melta rule - 9 points. S3, AP-3, R12", D3 damage, 1 damage vs vehicles - 10 points. Any takers? Anyone? Bueller?

Neuro pistol just needs a total rework, GW needs to decide what they want it to do. IMO, it makes no sense for harlequins to have an "anti tank" pistol and an "anti-elite" pistol - give them a flamer equivalent weapon for hordes please! We used to have an anti-horde melee weapon, but now we have three anti-elite melee weapons, which is kind of the other issue.

-Death Jesters, similarly, are straight up unusable garbage. Their ability requires you to set up a morale failure on a unit, but juuuuuuuust enough that you're removing 1-2 important models to get use out of it. Also, they have Sniper, which makes them want to shoot characters, but Death is Not Enough does nothing against characters at all. And then there's the "special ammo" for their shrieker gun, which GW has failed to make a thing you would ever ever consider using 7 editions in a row now (yup, it was even trash in 2nd ed). As a last little insult to injury, their shrieker cannon is special in that it is the only non-rending shuriken weapon in the game..for some reason. He uses really blunt shurikens I guess. Whatever he is post-CA, 50something points, for a single T3 character with a 3 shot 24" assault 3 S6 AP- D1 gun....yeah, he needs some serious retooling.

-Skyweavers are pretty terrible. They used to be our high-strength melee units, heavy unit hunters that hit hard on the charge then fell off, similar to Shining Spears. Now, theyre just "harlequin Troupers but faster and hideously overpriced". Their giant frickin monster glaive is only as strong as 2 of the basic harlequin melee weapons, and their haywire cannon is now identical to a Dark Eldar haywire blaster, but with Heavy instead of Assault and for more points.

-Voidweavers just have no reason to exist at all, and never have. They were mandatory in all the harlequin formations throughout seventh, and now theyre not, they've just disappeared. You just take a starweaver, because they're cheaper, and exchange the crappiest gun on the thing for 6 transport capacity, it's kind of a no brainer. Did you really want a single shot Heavy Dark Lance that badly? If so, why?

-The Harlequin's Kiss is just slightly overpriced. I don't mind that its profile is worse than the other two (S4 AP-1 D3 vs S4 Ap-3 and S5 Ap-2) because it should be more of a basic weapon, as 6 come per box of Harlequins, but it shouldn't be more expensive. I'd rather see it at like 2-3 points, and maybe only wound rolls of 6 do the D3 damage. Then you give the Harlequins Blade the Chainsword rule, and you have a choice between anti-elite basic troupers and anti-horde basic troupers.

-Harlequins blade costs 1 point for a weapon with no rules, for some reason. It's literally S user, AP- D1, for 1 point. Why not make it 0, the harlequin body 1 more, and all the other weapons 1 cheaper? Why say "or your harlequin can have no equipment, for 1 point?" Just give it the dang chainsword rule already.

I definitely agree that Solitaires, Troupes on the whole (barring a couple weapons being funky), Shadowseers are all fine as-is, no adjustments needed other than strats and masque tactics. Starweavers are a bit OP and I'd bump the price on them.They have design space to rework the weapons I listed to make them more interesting/better, and totally rework the DJ, and the army would be perfectly good.

 mokoshkana wrote:
They need some variety. There is really only one way to play them with a chance at winning, and that's fusion pistol squads in starweavers. Without fusion pistols, the army is very difficult to play effectively because there is no way to deal with high toughness models. Here are some things I would like to see:

- Zephyr Glaives become Str 5 or 6 on the charge and then function at str 3 or 4 afterwards.
- Voidweavers get a rule that allows them to ignore penalties for moving with heavy weapons
- Haywire cannons get the old armorbane rule and wound vehicles on 2+ combined with the mortal wounds rule they currently have
- Death Jesters get their two shooting profiles combined, and their weapon gets a close combat profile. Maybe +1S and -1/2 AP

Thoughts?

Like all these ideas.

What do you think about army traits?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Interesting - my buddy is playing flip belt wrong - he has been ignoring vertical distance with them. He loses every game with them so I never even looked at this rule other than a quick glance you are correct though.

You are right too about the toughness - it's sometimes T4 sometimes T5 level durability depending on str.

Still very strong.

 Xenomancers wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

pm713 wrote:
An actual HQ would be lovely.

Whats wrong with the troop master?

It's really weird having your sergeant lead the army. It's like removing space marine sergeants as part of the unit and making them hq's. The only reason there isn't one is because GW decided not to bother so you had to buy crappy voidweavers in 7th.

He might be a sargent level in the lore but his stats are actually better than an archon or an autarch - has more attacks and a better aura.

And? Doesn't mean they shouldn't have a leader. 40k is hugely based on fluff after all.

They need a <Masque> trait that gives enemy units -1 to hit them...

....*runs and hides*

pm713 wrote:
And? Doesn't mean they shouldn't have a leader. 40k is hugely based on fluff after all.

No, they shouldn't, but the way detachments work, they HAVE to have a Leader.

-

 Xenomancers wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:
They need some variety. There is really only one way to play them with a chance at winning, and that's fusion pistol squads in starweavers. Without fusion pistols, the army is very difficult to play effectively because there is no way to deal with high toughness models. Here are some things I would like to see:

- Zephyr Glaives become Str 5 or 6 on the charge and then function at str 3 or 4 afterwards.
- Voidweavers get a rule that allows them to ignore penalties for moving with heavy weapons
- Haywire cannons get the old armorbane rule and wound vehicles on 2+ combined with the mortal wounds rule they currently have
- Death Jesters get their two shooting profiles combined, and their weapon gets a close combat profile. Maybe +1S and -1/2 AP

Thoughts?

Like all these ideas.

What do you think about army traits?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Interesting - my buddy is playing flip belt wrong - he has been ignoring vertical distance with them. He loses every game with them so I never even looked at this rule other than a quick glance you are correct though.

You are right too about the toughness - it's sometimes T4 sometimes T5 level durability depending on str.

Still very strong.

I'm not quite sure what kind of traits they will get, but I really only care about the Masque of the Frozen Stars because that's my armies theme, and those are the rules I will use.

As for the flip belt, it states that you move across terrain and models as if they weren't there. I can see an argument for both cases of whether they would work like fliers or not, but I feel like they should function like fliers.

Army trait-wise:

-I'd love to see a leadership trait based on damage, rather than negative modifiers. If you want to go super weird, allow their attacks during the Fight phase to wound against the enemy unit's Leadership trait instead of their Toughness trait. If you want to go more basic, give them a "roll a die whenever a model is removed within 3" of a model with this trait, on a roll of X or higher remove an additional model, these models can't themselves generate additonal casualties". Basically, I want harlequins to be the knife in the Freakshow combination, with the Dark Creed and the Eldar LD-shenanigans being primarily the setup.

-frenzy/hatred harlequins with a strong "throw lots of dice" focus would be good for one of the masques that has kind of gone insane in their battle against slaanesh, maybe the poster child. Copy/paste of the strife trait would work .I'd rather not see a reroll advance/charge trait because it'd just make harlequins another derpy alpha strike army.

-You gotta do a deception/tricksy shtick faction. A "redeploy 3 units" stratagem, and for a trait, rather than a -1 to hit I'd like to see something like a conditional way to avoid overwatch. no overwatch if the charging unit starts within 2" might be interesting, or if that's too easy to achieve (it might be), no overwatch if declaring from over 8". Remember that Harlequins don't have a way to reroll charges, so you would be severely limiting your chance to get in if you did that.

I'd like to see the Kiss improved. It is so much weaker than the Embrace, and only helps against things with only an Inv save for protection, making it too risky to run in a list against an unknown opponent.

I'd like to see Death Jesters vastly improved to become real character-hunters, with longer range, and inflicting a Leadership penalty against the unit it shoots at.

I'd like to see Solitaires vastly improved, but improving the Kiss alone might help with this. If they could move again after killing something in order to be able to dart in and out, that would be really cool.

I'd like to see Haywire Cannons be good. Wound on a 2+ against vehicles for sure.

I'd like to see a choreographed "dance", with each turn a different detachment able to elect a model to gain a Warlord Trait as new "main characters" enter the stage.

 Yarium wrote:
I'd like to see a choreographed "dance", with each turn a different detachment able to elect a model to gain a Warlord Trait as new "main characters" enter the stage.

This would be awesome. You could make the actual Warlord be a different model each turn and even grant "Slay the Warlord" points multiple times to balance out the flexibility

-

I am in agreement wiht a lot of this.

DJs
Kiss
Nuero pistols
Fire Prism Jr needs some upgrade options

I am really interested in the new gateway terrain and how that effects turn 1 and following turns.

My friends do not like playing against my Harlies. I don't always win but I find I do better when i attempt to table them than go for points.

They wont play against my Harlies in SWA either though Harlies are seriously broke there, I don't really have fun when I play Harlies in SWA. Though its not the same game its off putting for my group and gives my clowns a bad perception.

When I try to play for points though I I just crumble, lol.

 Skerr wrote:
They wont play against my Harlies in SWA either though Harlies are seriously broke there, I don't really have fun when I play Harlies in SWA. Though its not the same game its off putting for my group and gives my clowns a bad perception.

What does south west asia have to do with anything?

Seriously though, I don't know what SWA means...

It looks highly likely following the Dark Eldar codex that troupes will get some form of points reduction.

As others have said, once they get strategems that will help too and probably give them that little extra ooomph that they need.

Agree that they need a HQ. What about an avatar of the Laughing God? Bit like a C'tan.

Well I think all decisions for the codex have already been made as the codex will be released soon.
Nevertheless some good ideas above.

 mokoshkana wrote:
Seriously though, I don't know what SWA means...

Shadow War: Armageddon, the “not Necromunda” game released with some industrial terrain before they re-released Necromunda.

 Yarium wrote:
I'd like to see the Kiss improved. It is so much weaker than the Embrace, and only helps against things with only an Inv save for protection, making it too risky to run in a list against an unknown opponent.

I'd like to see Death Jesters vastly improved to become real character-hunters, with longer range, and inflicting a Leadership penalty against the unit it shoots at.

I'd like to see Solitaires vastly improved, but improving the Kiss alone might help with this. If they could move again after killing something in order to be able to dart in and out, that would be really cool.

I'd like to see Haywire Cannons be good. Wound on a 2+ against vehicles for sure.

I'd like to see a choreographed "dance", with each turn a different detachment able to elect a model to gain a Warlord Trait as new "main characters" enter the stage.

Differentiate between the "specialist" melee weapons. They each used to have flavour, now it's bland variations on numbers. Let the kiss' multi-damage spill over to other models, let the caress inflict mortal wounds on the roll of a 6, etc.

Make the Death Jester scary! He's a terrorist, not an assassin - he gets a kick out of sowing discord and fear amongst the enemy ranks. Make Death is Not Enough reflect that, maybe as an "anti-aura": if the Death Jester snipes out a character, all enemy units within 6" of the dead model take morale (or some such).

I like the idea of a choreographed "dance". My hope is that the Masque traits give us some variation on play style, benefitting all foot, all mounted, etc. Just make it worthwhile to do something other than the fusion pistol drive-by!

If I were redesigning the Death Jester, I'd give his bio-explosive rule a variation of how it worked in 2nd ed.

if a model is slain by the initial shot (keep it single shot, S4, AP-, 1 damage to make it a high-risk high-reward weapon) then before it dies, the player controlling the Death Jester may immediately move the model up to its Move value, ignoring squad coherency. The model then explodes, and all non-vehicle units within 3" of it take D3 mortal wounds.

That would be a way to keep Death Is Not Enough from becoming just another bland morale malus (aeldari already have way more than enough of those) and keep it as something where the Jester is causing extra damage with failed morale tests. But it gives him a way to take an extra risk to spread his rule to more than one enemy unit in a turn.

As for how to rework Death Is Not Enough, I'd say you could keep it as is, but also make it so a Character who lost one or more wounds to the Jester must take a morale test as though they took casualties equal to the number of wounds. That way, if they fail, its as if they've fallen for some deadly trap or trick, like in the DJ's fluff page from the original codex where he shoots a herald of slaanesh in the ankle so she falls into the blades of her own chariot.

So THATS what happened to all the slaanesh heralds on chariots!

 Galef wrote:
They need a <Masque> trait that gives enemy units -1 to hit them...

....*runs and hides*

pm713 wrote:
And? Doesn't mean they shouldn't have a leader. 40k is hugely based on fluff after all.

No, they shouldn't, but the way detachments work, they HAVE to have a Leader.

-

Not funny dude.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
I'd like to see a choreographed "dance", with each turn a different detachment able to elect a model to gain a Warlord Trait as new "main characters" enter the stage.

This would be awesome. You could make the actual Warlord be a different model each turn and even grant "Slay the Warlord" points multiple times to balance out the flexibility

-

This would be a cool mini game going on anytime you faced the quins. Especially if it was a random mechanic.

Actually, the -1 to hit for Harlequins probably makes the most sense (both in lore and balance) of any army: almost all of its units want to get in close, so if you’re taking advantage of the trait, you’re definitely using the army sub-optimally and making that tactical trade-off.

I really think what the harlies need boils down to new kits and options. There’s 1 troop/troupe, several painfully-similar melee weapons, no characters, etc., etc. They’re not horribly underpowered or anything, just a touch too expensive/limited currently.

I really hope they get a DE level of attention to troupe types and options for strategems.

I'd like the ability to pull giant mallets out of the webway for close combat, a fish outfit, and an ambiguous relationship with the Sylvaneth

pm713 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

pm713 wrote:
An actual HQ would be lovely.

Whats wrong with the troop master?

It's really weird having your sergeant lead the army. It's like removing space marine sergeants as part of the unit and making them hq's. The only reason there isn't one is because GW decided not to bother so you had to buy crappy voidweavers in 7th.

I don't know. Is like Custodes, shield-captains where the sargeant equivalent in 7th, and they are now the HQ's just like in Horus Heresy.