Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

They need some decent miniatures.
Would love to collect them but the current miniatures are not as good as the original metal ones.

Im a HUGE harlequin player, i LOVE them and their play style. I have many 8th games now. I love their models, i love all the units they currently have (well besides a couple units rules like the DJ and Voidweaver, but they only need a tweak)

And honestly? They dont need much, in reality just some point tweaks will do to take more and their traits which they are getting, if they get some point changes and maybe 1-2 wargear buffs they will be solid.

Once the codex comes out its going to be my only army for a long time and will try to compete with them.

Someone made mention of Mimes, which basically had an Infiltrate ability. I think if you had that you'd be solid.

Harlequins don't need much? What universe are we living in?

I'm not a harlequin player personally, but my buddy is and I feel bad for him. My army has more HQ choices than his army has units of any kind put together. This is NOT ok. Harlies need at least a couple new units/models to not be a joke of a codex. Not in how competitive it is, mind you, but in variety of any sort. They need need NEED new units.

You don't need a huge amount of units. You need your different roles covered and solid internal balance.

I don't see how Harlequins survive in a meta that grows ever more lethal. Kind of okay against elite armies (although overwatch becomes more and more a problem) where you can execute flawless kills, but against anything with bulk your clowns will get chewed up. T3, 4+++, even with negative modifers, is weak defensive stats for a 20-30 point model.

The ynarri backed all fusion pistol build seems very dated now.

I'd expect points reductions all round.

Tyel wrote:
I don't see how Harlequins survive in a meta that grows ever more lethal. Kind of okay against elite armies (although overwatch becomes more and more a problem) where you can execute flawless kills, but against anything with bulk your clowns will get chewed up. T3, 4+++, even with negative modifers, is weak defensive stats for a 20-30 point model.

The ynarri backed all fusion pistol build seems very dated now.

I'd expect points reductions all round.

Indeed, a stand-alone Harlie army will hardly be viable.
It needs shooty support by Drukhari or CW units (detachments).
I doubt that GW is smart enough to adapt Harlies such that they get moved into the right direction.

Roles? Okay. You need cheap chaff infantry. Elite/tougher infantry. Specialized infantry (usually a small squad kitted out with special/heavy weapons). A cheap/small capacity transport. A tougher/costlier transport. A tank specializing in anti infantry/horde. A tank specializing in anti tank/monster. Artillery/indirect fire vehicle. Some huge tank/monstet lord of war point sink like a baneblade or ctan or bobby G. Flyer vehicle. Fast skirmisher unit/bikes. Psyker. Buffing/support elite. Assassin elite. And ideally several hqs to buff surrounding units and facilitate different styles of play.

And I feel like that's the bare minimum. Most armies have several of each of those options.

I'm not saying harlies won't be playable without anything new. You'll be able to win with them. They'll be FUNCTIONAL. But that's a super low standard to set. Hell, should we delete every unit that doesn't get used in competitive lists from other armies? Only like 7-9 units realistically get used and cover all the "roles". This game is supposed to be fun. A codex is supposed to get you excited about the army and all the different kinds of lists you'll be able to build with it.

ThePorcupine wrote:
Roles? Okay. You need cheap chaff infantry. Elite/tougher infantry. Specialized infantry (usually a small squad kitted out with special/heavy weapons). A cheap/small capacity transport. A tougher/costlier transport. A tank specializing in anti infantry/horde. A tank specializing in anti tank/monster. Artillery/indirect fire vehicle. Some huge tank/monstet lord of war point sink like a baneblade or ctan or bobby G. Flyer vehicle. Fast skirmisher unit/bikes. Psyker. Buffing/support elite. Assassin elite. And ideally several hqs to buff surrounding units and facilitate different styles of play.

And I feel like that's the bare minimum. Most armies have several of each of those options.

Well in theory at least Harlequins should be able to do this.

Regular blade quins for your cheap chaff (probably never going to be cheap enough, but go with it).
Between embraces, caresses and kisses you could have anti-horde, anti-elite, and some all rounder.
With fusion guns and neuro pistols you could have specialised shooting infantry.
You have a small transport.
Skyweavers are fast skirmisher units.
Then if Voidweavers could be not a joke you could have a model with an anti-tank, anti-monster & anti-horde loadout.
Then you have a set of characters.

The problem though is how many of these are just bad. As people have listed - Voidweavers, kisses, death jesters, skyweavers, regular blade harlequins & neuro pistols are all obviously poor options. I wouldn't say the Solitaire is awful - but he is definitely marginal which isn't great. Caresses and embraces are not sufficiently distinct.

I guess I really dislike that so many of the harlequin "options" are simply "unit x with a slightly different weapon" to the point where half your army's options are all one unit. Sure, you can outfit your one unit to be slightly better at this or that, bit in the end its still that one unit. It always will be. Your harlie army will look identical to bob's which will look identical to steve's. Because its all your codex has.

They only have a few units so each needs to fill a role and be viable.

The Deathjester needs some serious reimagining. It will never be taken as is. Even if it went down to 40 pts a model (-20 pts) it's hard to see it played.

The Voidweaver needs more range and needs to ignore shooting penalties for moving.

Haywire needs to not be Heavy. As is, it will never be taken because it doesn't synergize with the movement capabilities of the army.

I would like Harlequin blades to add +1 attack or re-roll hit's of 1, or something. To make it more of a stock chaff clearing option.

They also need some synergy with movement/advance and firing their pistols.

They need to fix the Neurodisruptor. Str 3 is awful.

I would like to see the Death jester become a real horde clearing option rather than a character killer. Let the solitaire be the anti-character model and give the DJ some real bite against horde infantry. Maybe just give it the tempest launcher’s profile without the indirect fire ability.

As far as the leadership effect, I think it would be cool if you had an ability that, rather than giving a generic -1 to Ld , instead prevented an Infantry unit that suffers a wound from DJ shooting from gaining the benefit of any buffing aura conferred on it by a nearby character (I.e. synapse, rerolls, etc). That would allow the DJ to be a combo piece for armies that rely on Leadership shenanigans, but which I practice don’t often work due to abundant powers that allow infantry to functionally ignore morale.

ThePorcupine wrote:
Harlequins don't need much? What universe are we living in?

I'm not a harlequin player personally, but my buddy is and I feel bad for him. My army has more HQ choices than his army has units of any kind put together. This is NOT ok. Harlies need at least a couple new units/models to not be a joke of a codex. Not in how competitive it is, mind you, but in variety of any sort. They need need NEED new units.

30+ harlequin games in 8th with harlequins, some top tier lists like Gman/Dante Storm Raven spam, Razorback spam, Horror/Daemon Prince spam, top A list at the last LVO, etc..

They dont need units (tho Mimes added would be nice, i dont always want 16+ point troops something like 7-8points with scout be nice), Skyweavers cheaper by 12pts, Voidweaver more shots/assault weapons, Star/Void weavers 9pts cheaper, Troupes 1-2pts cheaper, their 0ap weapon 0pts, all melee weapons 6pts (even skyweavers) HWC assault, Shadowseer 15pts cheaper, DJ double the shots, and thats all we need.

With a few things cheaper and traits Harlequins could be very competitive without added units.

Hopefully they don't drop Troupers down too much in points. They're good as they are. They could stand a minor points drop, but bringing them down even to Tac ranges would make them absurd.

Harlies are like GK, though - you can make an army out of them, but it really feels more like a supplimental force.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
With a few things cheaper and traits Harlequins could be very competitive without added units.

Yes. They can be competitive. I don't doubt that. What I doubt is them being a fun army with options. They could cut the point cost of Troupes and Starweavers and do absolutely nothing else and boom, the army is "competitive." Makes for a monstrously boring army though. They need MORE OPTIONS.

I'm not convinced more options = more fun. I like the simplicity of the army in a way. There aren't a bunch of units that i'll never purchase because they are garbage. My tyranids have tons of unit options i'll never bother with because they just aren't worth the time.

 rollawaythestone wrote:
I'm not convinced more options = more fun. I like the simplicity of the army in a way. There aren't a bunch of units that i'll never purchase because they are garbage. My tyranids have tons of unit options i'll never bother with because they just aren't worth the time.

well, there are Voidweavers, Death Jesters, and Skyweavers atm...which is what, 3/7ths of the army?

Yeah. Would you be against removing Voidweavers, Death Jesters, and Solitaires from the codex? Nobody uses them because they're garbage so it shouldn't be a problem, right? Less options doesn't mean less fun, right?

 Amishprn86 wrote:

ThePorcupine wrote:
Harlequins don't need much? What universe are we living in?

I'm not a harlequin player personally, but my buddy is and I feel bad for him. My army has more HQ choices than his army has units of any kind put together. This is NOT ok. Harlies need at least a couple new units/models to not be a joke of a codex. Not in how competitive it is, mind you, but in variety of any sort. They need need NEED new units.

30+ harlequin games in 8th with harlequins, some top tier lists like Gman/Dante Storm Raven spam, Razorback spam, Horror/Daemon Prince spam, top A list at the last LVO, etc..

They dont need units (tho Mimes added would be nice, i dont always want 16+ point troops something like 7-8points with scout be nice), Skyweavers cheaper by 12pts, Voidweaver more shots/assault weapons, Star/Void weavers 9pts cheaper, Troupes 1-2pts cheaper, their 0ap weapon 0pts, all melee weapons 6pts (even skyweavers) HWC assault, Shadowseer 15pts cheaper, DJ double the shots, and thats all we need.

With a few things cheaper and traits Harlequins could be very competitive without added units.

I think this is a good place to start.

Considering how few units the Harlequins have that's still quite a lot of changes!

They do need it, though. They're feeling very overpriced currently.

Wider choice in models. There are so few for the entire army.

SG

 ServiceGames wrote:
Wider choice in models. There are so few for the entire army.

SG

As already said, the experimental codex of Gav Thorpe has contained also Mimes (infiltrating troops), Harlie Wraithlord (HS), and Greater Harlequin (HQ).

Realistic cover and terrain to facilitate their hidden advance and ability to leave combat and hide in shadows until next charge...

Regardless, Harlequins are shock troupes (^^).
It is a mistake to look for a full range of battlefield options from typical harlequin force.
These are complements to replace CW assault and fast attack troops, imho.
I don;t want a harlequin tank.
But, converting a harlequin wraithlord for the cw which are complemented by the harlequins, that I have already done.

 wuestenfux wrote:
As already said, the experimental codex of Gav Thorpe has contained also Mimes (infiltrating troops), Harlie Wraithlord (HS), and Greater Harlequin (HQ).

And we are sure these new models will be released with the Harlequin Codex or soon after?

SG

Pre-8th, I had started a DE detachment as "Impressionable youths of Cormerrah". A squad of Kabs obsessed with Death Jesters (Skull helmets on every model), in a Raider with a bunch of the death/darker Harlie masks adorning it. Wyches where every member had a (less elegant) mask. Various colors, but not as eccentric and a lot darker compared to the actual Harlies. Not all of the same kabal/coven.

I had planned on doing 'Mimes' as counts-as Mandrakes (Harlequins kitbashed with IG/SM/etc, so it'd look like the Harlie was setting their holofield to look like said IG/SM guy), probably with double shuriken pistols (as that'd be similar to Mandrake rules). I never got around to it, but I think that'd be awesome and fun.

My point is, if we want more than just those 7 units, counts-as kitbashes can do really really well. It's not the same thing, but it's fun to think about.

ThePorcupine wrote:

Yes. They can be competitive. I don't doubt that. What I doubt is them being a fun army with options. They could cut the point cost of Troupes and Starweavers and do absolutely nothing else and boom, the army is "competitive." Makes for a monstrously boring army though. They need MORE OPTIONS.

Just making everything cheaper would be terrible and I really hope it doesn't turn out that way. I'd rather have it go the opposite route - make things more extreme and expensive. There's appeal in a limited selection so long as things are distinct and expensive enough so you can't fit everything into the typical list.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 ServiceGames wrote:
Wider choice in models. There are so few for the entire army.

SG

As already said, the experimental codex of Gav Thorpe has contained also Mimes (infiltrating troops), Harlie Wraithlord (HS), and Greater Harlequin (HQ).

Do you have the source or link for that ? I haven't seen this info yet.

fresus wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 ServiceGames wrote:
Wider choice in models. There are so few for the entire army.

SG

As already said, the experimental codex of Gav Thorpe has contained also Mimes (infiltrating troops), Harlie Wraithlord (HS), and Greater Harlequin (HQ).

Do you have the source or link for that ? I haven't seen this info yet.

This isn't a reference to something coming out, but rather something Gav did years ago:
http://www.angelfire.com/games3/militarum/rules/harlequins.pdf

Don't count on any new models in the near future, unless they do a "Myphitic Blighthauler" and put a data slate in the codex for a model that won't exist for a while.