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Made in us
Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos




So AOS 2.0 in June. Rumors were right. What was revealed that I saw:

Command Points like in 40k. - my excitement level: should be about 8 out of 10. If its implemented like 40k its a 3 out of 10 because CPs in 40k are easy to farm and follows the all reward no risk mantra of current game development.

More strategic double turn. Assuming this means you spend command points in some fashion to dictate double turn happening. My excitement level on this: 2 out of 10 because you'll build a certain way to farm CPs to make use of this which pigeon holes army construction just as it does in 40k.

Artillery. Excitement level 7 out of 10. A proper battlefield role getting more of a role than it currently does is to me a good thing, plus my chaos dwarves will hopefully get some more use out of their current lackluster army.

Stormcast mage chamber. Excitement level: 1 out of 10. I'm sick to death of stormcast releases.

New Nighthaunt Battletome: excitement level: 8 out of 10. Good to see more death getting fleshed out. Great new models. New Mortarch of Grief.

What I'm reading is not impacted are the gamey gamey rules like the lack of cover and terrain rules and getting to continue to shoot lord bob in the mouth because his thumb is visible through two forests and crossing five enemy model bases with no penalty because everyone is Legolas Level 30.

The immersion breaking rules are here to stay because gamey gamey is fun, and traditional wargaming tropes are not fun. Disappointed by this. I really really wish GW would throw us guys that love traditional wargaming a bone or two. Especially when in the community site they say their goal is to make AOS "THE" Fantasy Wargame.

Caveat: no one has seen all of the rules yet so any of this could change or there are things we don't know yet that could lessen the annoyance for me over the gamey gamey rules continuing to be a thing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/12 14:23:56


GW points don't bring balance. They exist purely for structure. You can get more balance from no points than you do from GW points. You however can get no structure in your game without points. 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Right behind you.

CPs in 40k are "easy to farm" because we have warlord traits and relics that let you regain them.

Nothing so far seems to suggest we'll get those for AoS.
   
Made in ca
Terminator with Assault Cannon






Personally im not looking foward to CP because its been abused as hell in 40k, so guessing not much will change.

its my hope that GW will finally pull their had outta their arse and make a consistence and cohesive universe thats not painfully cringe to try and read into. Again can have the best game play mechanics in the world, but if the lore and universe and just not appealing, the game is not appealing to me either.

Night haunt are gonna be good though, death needs more love.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/12 14:38:57


kill ALL the orks!

1500 pts Legion of the Damned (Salamanders)
1500 point Dewathwings  
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols






I hoped CPs would make their way over to AoS with better implementation.

What are they doing with artillery?
   
Made in fi
Librarian with Freaky Familiar






CPs are great mechanic in theory. It is just that some armies in 40K can farm them way too easily, which breaks the system. The whole point of them is that they're a limited resource which you must use wisely.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in us
Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos




CPs in 40k are easy to farm also because you can get a ton by doing easy mode building soup lists and detachment style lists that have no drawback.

I like the concept of CP. CP can be used to enforce balance and non extreme builds. The way GW does it you get your extreme one dimensional power build AND a shed load of CPs to go with it.

GW points don't bring balance. They exist purely for structure. You can get more balance from no points than you do from GW points. You however can get no structure in your game without points. 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Right behind you.

 auticus wrote:
CPs in 40k are easy to farm also because you can get a ton by doing easy mode building soup lists and detachment style lists that have no drawback.

I like the concept of CP. CP can be used to enforce balance and non extreme builds. The way GW does it you get your extreme one dimensional power build AND a shed load of CPs to go with it.

You're missing that those soup lists are taking as much advantage as possible over the relics/traits that give you back CPs on d6 rolls.

That's why people take Grand Strategist Guard Warlords, Kurov's Aquila, and stuff like that.
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols






If it's something like a set number for both players, varying only by the size of the game, then that should be workable and fair. Something like, 3 for vanguard, 6 for battlehost and 9 for warhost as an example, assuming that matched play still works like that.
   
Made in ca
Terminator with Assault Cannon






 auticus wrote:
CPs in 40k are easy to farm also because you can get a ton by doing easy mode building soup lists and detachment style lists that have no drawback.

I like the concept of CP. CP can be used to enforce balance and non extreme builds. The way GW does it you get your extreme one dimensional power build AND a shed load of CPs to go with it.


Really its the fact there is no cap on them, and there are multiple ways to roll to see if you get it back. Guliman, guard strat, and guard relic, lets you roll 2 dice for your own CP, and 1 for your oponants. It would not be bad if EVERYONE got that level of BS.

kill ALL the orks!

1500 pts Legion of the Damned (Salamanders)
1500 point Dewathwings  
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




Just coming back. I am happy the roll for priority or is it initiative every turn is staying.

I just hope it doesn't become Age of 40K in the mortal realms.

Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.

Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?

Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".  
   
Made in is
Sneaky Striking Scorpion




Iceland

Super excited about this release.

I think Command Points will be different unless they do a complete revamp of the entire system. Currently Matched Play is very restrictive in AoS so I doubt we'll see endless detachment Command batteries a la 40k. Also, I wonder if the Malign Portents and the "Prophecy" system is an early indicator of how it will work. The benefit is that they at least have over a year of experience with what worked with CP in 40k and hopefully implement some of that knowledge into AoS.

Second time I've actually been excited for a Stormcast release(first time was with Neave Blacktalon), but I am a sucker for more women models. Also just beautiful models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Future War Cultist wrote:
If it's something like a set number for both players, varying only by the size of the game, then that should be workable and fair. Something like, 3 for vanguard, 6 for battlehost and 9 for warhost as an example, assuming that matched play still works like that.


If they go for the Malign Portent route it will be base: 1d6 + 3 per phase. Then you get 1 point for each hero, wizard, and priest in your party(Malign Portent also had one point for Harbingers, but I doubt that will be included if they go this route).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/12 16:09:14


Craftworlds | Drukhari | Dark Angels | Necrons | Emperor's Children(30k/40k) | Tyranids | Daughters of Khaine | Blades of Khorne | Stormcast Eternals
 
   
Made in si
Skillful Swordmaster





Honestly I'm not looking forward to whatever rules made the crossover from 40k. Maybe they'll get it right this time, maybe they won't. Last thing I want is even greater benefits for picking an army with a battle tome over the one that doesn't have it or won't get any support in a foreseeable future.
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Right behind you.

My biggest concern is that they're going to 'remove' the ability to snipe characters like in 40k.
It would make the biggest benefit for Idoneth cease to be relevant.

The idea of removing shooting out of combat is just...ugh as well. Shooting units are, IMO, already kind of pathetic aside from a few standouts. Anyone trying to say that Dark Riders, Scourge Privateers, or Shadow Warriors are great is full of it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/12 16:46:06


 
   
Made in fi
Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Kanluwen wrote:
My biggest concern is that they're going to 'remove' the ability to snipe characters like in 40k.
It would make the biggest benefit for Idoneth cease to be relevant.

The idea of removing shooting out of combat is just...ugh as well. Shooting units are, IMO, already kind of pathetic aside from a few standouts. Anyone trying to say that Dark Riders, Scourge Privateers, or Shadow Warriors are great is full of it.


Both would be good changes. Ability to snipe characters with impunity is stupid, enemy can just remove characters which are not crazy tanky. Melee being able to shut down the shooting at least a little bit is good for tactical depth, as it makes manoeuvring more important. If these changes lead to some units being too weak or too good, then that can be resolved via adjusting the rules or point costs of those units.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/12 17:14:13


Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in is
Sneaky Striking Scorpion




Iceland

Anyone trying to say that Dark Riders, Scourge Privateers, or Shadow Warriors are great is full of it.


I doubt they are taking non-battletome factions into account.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Both would be good changes. Ability to snipe characters with impunity is stupid, enemy can just remove characters which are not crazy tanky. Melee being able to shut down the shooting at least a little bit is good for tactical dept, as it makes manoeuvring more important. If these changes lead to some units being too weak or too good, then that can be resolved via adjusting the rules or point costs of those units.


I tend to agree.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/12 17:08:28


Craftworlds | Drukhari | Dark Angels | Necrons | Emperor's Children(30k/40k) | Tyranids | Daughters of Khaine | Blades of Khorne | Stormcast Eternals
 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols






 Eldarsif wrote:
Super excited about this release.
If they go for the Malign Portent route it will be base: 1d6 + 3 per phase. Then you get 1 point for each hero, wizard, and priest in your party(Malign Portent also had one point for Harbingers, but I doubt that will be included if they go this route).


I like that. How much do the stratagems cost in points? Are they 1/2 and 3 like 40k?

The best thing about that system is that you'll be rewarded for taking weaker characters who might never otherwise see the light of day (Navigator? I'm looking at you).
   
Made in us
Painting Within the Lines




Seattle, WA USA

I'm cautiously optimistic. I like the idea of CP (and the version they had in Malign Portents wasn't bad), but agree it could go sideways really quick. I know I'm probably in a minority, but I'm glad the initiative roll per turn isn't gone, though it sounds like there's some ways to modify that now. Which could be either good or bad.

Interesting that they seem to have added no shooting out of combat (didn't see anything yet on shooting into it), that was one of few areas I didn't like too much in AOS. I don't mind the "character sniping" too much, but do wish they'd include some rules for terrain and cover that weren't just so half assed.
   
Made in ca
Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon





Tied and gagged in the back of your car

I just hope they don't screw it up. AoS is in a solid place right now, and there's a lot of baggage they could bring over from 40k that would not go over so well.
   
Made in is
Sneaky Striking Scorpion




Iceland

 Future War Cultist wrote:
 Eldarsif wrote:
Super excited about this release.
If they go for the Malign Portent route it will be base: 1d6 + 3 per phase. Then you get 1 point for each hero, wizard, and priest in your party(Malign Portent also had one point for Harbingers, but I doubt that will be included if they go this route).


I like that. How much do the stratagems cost in points? Are they 1/2 and 3 like 40k?

The best thing about that system is that you'll be rewarded for taking weaker characters who might never otherwise see the light of day (Navigator? I'm looking at you).


The Malign Portent abilities cost from 1 to 5 points depending on their description. 1 point abilities are not common in the Malign Portent book. About 1 such ability per faction.

Craftworlds | Drukhari | Dark Angels | Necrons | Emperor's Children(30k/40k) | Tyranids | Daughters of Khaine | Blades of Khorne | Stormcast Eternals
 
   
Made in si
Skillful Swordmaster





There are two ways to generate portents. Narrative and matched play. Narrative was described, matched play gives you fixed value of them in regards to the points being used.
   
Made in ca
Terminator with Assault Cannon






 Fafnir wrote:
I just hope they don't screw it up. AoS is in a solid place right now, and there's a lot of baggage they could bring over from 40k that would not go over so well.


ehhhhhhh, solid is a strong word, i would say its in more of a saquid like state, not quite a solid, not quite a liquid.

kill ALL the orks!

1500 pts Legion of the Damned (Salamanders)
1500 point Dewathwings  
   
Made in ca
Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon





Tied and gagged in the back of your car

 Backspacehacker wrote:
 Fafnir wrote:
I just hope they don't screw it up. AoS is in a solid place right now, and there's a lot of baggage they could bring over from 40k that would not go over so well.


ehhhhhhh, solid is a strong word, i would say its in more of a saquid like state, not quite a solid, not quite a liquid.


Okay, I'll put it like this then:

There's more 40k could take from AoS than AoS should take from 40k.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





My hope is that AoS 'command points' are a set number no matter the size of your army. You get, say, 6, no matter what faction, allegiance, or whatever you choose.

That, in my mind, would be an ideal start.

But otherwise, I'm excited. Different changes to command abilities, no shooting out of combat, new rules for magic and the like, as well as rules for combat on the different realms sounds like a lot of fun!
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Fafnir wrote:
I just hope they don't screw it up. AoS is in a solid place right now, and there's a lot of baggage they could bring over from 40k that would not go over so well.


So much this. I would hate for the AoS community to look anything like what I see in 40k. That place is nurgles own pit. I am a purely narrative guy with my group so a lot of things may not be relevant to us, but I am not overly impressed with 40k at all.

Command Points like in 40k. - my excitement level: should be about 8 out of 10. If its implemented like 40k its a 3 out of 10 because CPs in 40k are easy to farm and follows the all reward no risk mantra of current game development.

More strategic double turn. 2 out of 10

Artillery. 5 out of 10 here.

Stormcast mage chamber. 10 out of 10. I concur with " I'm sick to death of stormcast releases." but am also looking towards the rpg coming out and these will be wanted by some of my players

New Nighthaunt Battletome: : 10 out of 10.

The immersion breaking rules hurt my feelbads in many ways too, but I have dr strangelove view of them, as for the community site they say their goal is to make AOS "THE" Fantasy Wargame. that ship long sailed in a lot of places.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/12 18:11:09


 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols






 Eldarsif wrote:

The Malign Portent abilities cost from 1 to 5 points depending on their description. 1 point abilities are not common in the Malign Portent book. About 1 such ability per faction.


Cool. I should have got that book.

Also, is it +1 point per wizard/priest or a flat point for having each type period?

Again, I like CPs, but they need to be careful with how they implement them.
   
Made in us
Hacking Interventor




I'm sort of excited about this news as I've been itching to play aos for some time. Hopefully they will clear up some of the confusion about making legacy armies, I'm still not entirely sure if my high elves are even legal.

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Ehh, I just dipped my toes very casually back into AoS only to see this. 100% not excited about 40k Esque CP porting over. It seemed like such a good idea in that game as well at first, but with every release it just seems like an unholy mess, screws with army building, and slows down the game.

Oh well, I hope they do more good than harm here.
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle






 auticus wrote:
So AOS 2.0 in June. Rumors were right. What was revealed that I saw:

Command Points like in 40k. - my excitement level: should be about 8 out of 10. If its implemented like 40k its a 3 out of 10 because CPs in 40k are easy to farm and follows the all reward no risk mantra of current game development.

More strategic double turn. Assuming this means you spend command points in some fashion to dictate double turn happening. My excitement level on this: 2 out of 10 because you'll build a certain way to farm CPs to make use of this which pigeon holes army construction just as it does in 40k.

Artillery. Excitement level 7 out of 10. A proper battlefield role getting more of a role than it currently does is to me a good thing, plus my chaos dwarves will hopefully get some more use out of their current lackluster army.

Stormcast mage chamber. Excitement level: 1 out of 10. I'm sick to death of stormcast releases.

New Nighthaunt Battletome: excitement level: 8 out of 10. Good to see more death getting fleshed out. Great new models. New Mortarch of Grief.

What I'm reading is not impacted are the gamey gamey rules like the lack of cover and terrain rules and getting to continue to shoot lord bob in the mouth because his thumb is visible through two forests and crossing five enemy model bases with no penalty because everyone is Legolas Level 30.

The immersion breaking rules are here to stay because gamey gamey is fun, and traditional wargaming tropes are not fun. Disappointed by this. I really really wish GW would throw us guys that love traditional wargaming a bone or two. Especially when in the community site they say their goal is to make AOS "THE" Fantasy Wargame.

Caveat: no one has seen all of the rules yet so any of this could change or there are things we don't know yet that could lessen the annoyance for me over the gamey gamey rules continuing to be a thing.
Are you not excited for no shooting out of combat?

"Putting a statement in quotations makes it seem more legitimate."
--Bette R. Withname

Imagine three people with the same set of values but radically different emotional states, each of them believes their position is more valid than the other two, they all post using the same account, and your job is to make it coherent. 
   
Made in ca
Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon





Tied and gagged in the back of your car

dosiere wrote:
Ehh, I just dipped my toes very casually back into AoS only to see this. 100% not excited about 40k Esque CP porting over. It seemed like such a good idea in that game as well at first, but with every release it just seems like an unholy mess, screws with army building, and slows down the game.

Oh well, I hope they do more good than harm here.


An occasional reroll for key plays wouldn't be awful, but the broader spectrum of stratagems tends to be wildly hit-or-miss in 40k. AoS also does a good enough job differentiating its factions with its faction traits and abilities already, stratagems aren't needed to fill that gap like they do in 40k. In fact, many faction traits, like Nurgle's wheel-of-fortune, function much like a more organic and cohesive version of stratagems anyway.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/12 21:53:39


 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle






 Fafnir wrote:
dosiere wrote:
Ehh, I just dipped my toes very casually back into AoS only to see this. 100% not excited about 40k Esque CP porting over. It seemed like such a good idea in that game as well at first, but with every release it just seems like an unholy mess, screws with army building, and slows down the game.

Oh well, I hope they do more good than harm here.


An occasional reroll for key plays wouldn't be awful, but the broader spectrum of stratagems tends to be wildly hit-or-miss in 40k. AoS also does a good enough job differentiating its factions with its faction traits and abilities already, stratagems aren't needed to fill that gap like they do in 40k. In fact, many faction traits, like Nurgle's wheel-of-fortune, function much like a more organic and cohesive version of stratagems anyway.
Yeah. What I don't want to see is allegiance strategems on TOP of the allegiance stuff we already have. What we have now is perfect; more would be too much. But generic strategems for everyone is something I could get behind even if I'm kinda meh on the idea overall.

"Putting a statement in quotations makes it seem more legitimate."
--Bette R. Withname

Imagine three people with the same set of values but radically different emotional states, each of them believes their position is more valid than the other two, they all post using the same account, and your job is to make it coherent. 
   
 
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