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I did a search for this on Dakka, and couldn't find anything, but perhaps I wasn't using the right search words. Regardless, the topic speaks for itself.

Basic situation: Squad 1 is standing in a tight circle, base to base. Squad 2 is surrounding them, also in a circle and base to base. Both Squad 1 and 2 are also base to base. Base sizes are less than an inch across, like most GW round infantry bases.  Can you assault  Squad 2?  If yes, how? If not, why not?

I'm not really interested in whether the tactic is cheesy or not, rules lawyering or not (I believe any good tournament judge would say it's stupid and disallow it anyways). I'd personally never do it, but it's sparked some debate I'm semi-involved in and I'm genuinely curious.

Thanks for your time.

This has been toted about on various forums. The general concensus tends to be either

1: By the RAW you can not assault this unit, but nobody in their right mind would enforce it or

2: You can in fact assault them, by simply declaring the assault against both units. The only pre-requisite is that you do not move within 1" of a unit you are not assaulting. It doesn't matter whether you actually reach both units, so long as you declare the assault against both.

Thanks, Insaniak. I've also seen this argued in other forums, but never really got involved. Your split is basically the way the discussion is going as well, though the claim is that the RAW does indeed support assaulting both squads. Is this the case? When you get the chance, could you break the RAW down for me to prove or disprove? Thanks again.

thx10050:

It comes down to your definition of charging. If you believe that "charging" means simply to declare a charge on a unit (even if you don't actually end up moving any models into base contact), then you could assault in your example.

If you think the definition of "charging" includes actually getting a model into base contact with that enemy unit, then you would not be able to assault in your example.


This question is included on the Dakka FAQ and is certainly muddy enough to warrant a discussion with your opponent before the game begins. If he likes this kind of rules minutia you should definitely both be aware that the game is going to be played like that right from the beginning.

Thanks, Yakface, that's basically the way I saw it as well, hence I said in my own discussion that I could see the argument going either way. I've never actually played against someone who tried this, nor, as I said, would I do it myself, but I was curious about it, since I've seen it often discussed in threads pertaining to dirty tricks to pull in the game and the like.

Posted By yakface on 06/13/2006 7:59 PM

If you think the definition of "charging" includes actually getting a model into base contact with that enemy unit, then you would not be able to assault in your example.

If you use that definition of charging, then you could never actually get to assault anything, as you wouldn't be able to move within 1" until you actually get base to base.

edited out due to misread

Maybe I'm missing something. Squad 2 is on the outside, surrounding Squad 1. If so... then heck yeah you can assault Squad 2.

Maybe I'm missing something. Squad 2 is on the outside, surrounding Squad 1. If so... then heck yeah you can assault Squad 2

The argument arises because the assault rules state that you can't move within 1" of a unit you are not charging. As a standard 25mm slotta base is less than an inch across, you can't charge unit 2 without coming within 1" of unit 1.

Hence my answers 1 and 2 up the top of the thread.

I, for one, would allow it.
I'm obvoiusly in the camp that says that you don't have to get there to be charging.
I'm very happy it's included in the DakkaFAQ.

This question arose originally because various European translations of rules (FIGS) use 3cm as the basic unit of distance measurement. The closest approach distance is 3cm not 1 inch. 3cm is wider than a standard infantry base.

So here's a related question:

You want to charge the unit with a single model (say a daemon prince). You can't both move in by the shortest route and stay an inch away from the unit you aren't assaulting. So what do you do?

In practice I always let the other guy make the charge. But I very, very often use these rules to force him to charge two units (when he has two or more models....so that he has to eat twice as many terminator powerfists). But if he only has one model, I'll let him move it in on one unit, even if it'll be within 1" of the other unit.

 

I think that is the best way to play it.

Though you can put me in the "chargeing" does not equal "base to base" crowd. And alas, I don't feel like argueing it again.

Hello folks. As far as I see the unassaultable formation just doesn't work.

You can declare a charge against whatever you like be they units opposite side of the board or seperated by impassible terrain or whatever. Even if its blatently impossible to get at or out of range you're allowed to declare and then check if its possible, being unable to premeasure means thats the only way you're allowed to do it - this is the part that lets you attempt the impossible when you declare the assault against the inner unit.
The charge succeeding or failing has nothing to do with the declaration. Thats why you can declare on both units in the so called "The impossible to assault trick," the declaration cancels both 1" excusion zones letting you attempt to move into base contact with your target (otherwise you couldn't assault at all ever).

Thus you move closest to closest first, which is easy as your front guy moved upto the nearest model in the outer squad. As soon as you do this your charge has 'suceeded' which is the only requirement for getting everyone else in and being able to start hitting people. The assault on the inside unit fails but thats somewhat irrelevent since you've already got into combat with something.

If you follow the steps for the assault phase in the order they're given instead of hopping aboutthen theres no no real problem.

If you only have a single model to assault with then it becomes a bit questionable as you can't really contact two units with one model as you're supposed to move in a straight line directly at the nearest (and can't shuffle around to the side). Technically it is allowed to declare against multiple units, which might be useful if someone is actually trying the so called impossible assault trick.

I would attack this on a physical measurement standpoint. We are talking about .016" of an inch on the diameter or .008" on the radius. (that less than 3 hairs) First of all I'm sure no GW base is made to these kind of tolerances, Second of all unless your opponent has calipers on him there is no way the red measuring sticks or tape measures he has on hand can even reliably measure these kind of distances. This is neglecting the complications of having physical models on the bases. For a game of 40K 25mm is effectively 1" to within the toleraces of your measuring equipment. That being said if you opponent does show up with calipers you know what to look out for.

First of all I'm sure no GW base is made to these kind of tolerances,

GW's bases are polystyrene (which has extremely minimal shrinkage while setting) and cast in steel molds (so no warpage of the mold during casting)... so they're all about as close to identical as any two series of the Amazing Race...


And there's no need to be able to measure them exactly. Bung them on a tape measure, and they are clearly less than an inch across. For this exercise, that's all you need to know.

Nonsense, their cooling times could be different, the injection pressure different, the flash produced different, there are a hundred different things that could cause size variations on a plastic part, none of which GW controls for (nor should they need to). If your not trying to control for .008" tolerance you are not going to hit it, especially on a slotta base which has an opening prone to opening and closing and warpage. What you are arguing is that the base is .992" away and not 1.000" And I am saying there is no way to prove that with a tape measure, the smallest gradation on which is almost ten times bigger than the distance you are trying to discern. That is all you need to know for this exercise.

And I am saying there is no way to prove that with a tape measure, the smallest gradation on which is almost ten times bigger than the distance you are trying to discern.

The first person to actually get into this much detail/waste of time in a game with me will be my new best friend for life.

That's exactly my point the whole thing is a waste of time, the person making the claim couldn't even prove there was a violation!

And I am saying there is no way to prove that with a tape measure, the smallest gradation on which is almost ten times bigger than the distance you are trying to discern.

Well of course there is. You put the base on the tape. If it doesn't reach the one inch mark, it is less than one inch across.

For the record, I'm not advocating absolute measurement in a game. It just doesn't work, as there are too many variables involved. Merely pointing out that finding out whether something is less than an inch across isn't exactly rocket science.

hmm... you don't seem to appreciate the distance you are nitpicking about. The lines on a std. tape measure are about .010" across. The tolerance between the lines on a tape measure are probably no better than 1% (+/-.010" ). so your measurment error is already in the vicininty of .030" The distance you are trying to discern (ruler probably from about 3" away, with a figure in between) is about .2 mm or .008". Equivalent to trying to show from the top of a 75' building that that a guy holding a wooden yardstick above his head is actually standing in a 35.5" circle and not a 36" one. The argument is over before it begins because you can't even measure it well enough to show that you are indeed violating his 1" area. An alternative way to look at it is to get a set of precision calipers set it alternatively to 25 mm and 25.4 mm and have everyone you know blind measure it with a tape measure or god forbid a GW red measuring stick. The difference is so minute it is effectively lost in the noise of the measurment.

I can see how the question might arise if the standard is 3cm instead of 1" as mentioned earlier, this seems like a legitimate bone of contention (though of course only one sensible way to play it) It's nonsensical to argue it when the standard is 1" though like it is in the UK and US versions.

This is one of the things that isn't really going to be used by anyone. Even the most tiresome powergaming ruleslawyer is going to notice the horrific vunerablitities to blast/template weapons or even basic shooting has at making this idea unusable (a few holes in the outside unit and the whole thing falls down).

Perhaps for the sake of the point at hand its worth accepting that bases are uniformly 0.4mm too small to be an inch. After all the debate here is in the rules not wether people play 40K using a micometer.

Perhaps for the sake of the point at hand its worth accepting that bases are uniformly 0.4mm too small to be an inch. After all the debate here is in the rules not wether people play 40K using a micometer.

Exactly. However you choose to measure, the base is 25mm, which is less than an inch. From a purely RAW perspective, that's all that matters.

How you actually play it is another matter entirely.

If they want to get that cozy to avoid a fight, let them eat battle cannon rounds. That'll learn 'em.

I agree with Crawling Chaos. I still have a couple of Plasma Cannons in my army (though everyone else thinks they're passe'). Let'm eat a couple of those for their trouble of trying to exploit this loophole.

Posted By KiMonarrez on 06/14/2006 7:43 PM
I agree with Crawling Chaos. I still have a couple of Plasma Cannons in my army (though everyone else thinks they're passe'). Let'm eat a couple of those for their trouble of trying to exploit this loophole.

Yup, there is always a solution for any problem. I too keep a couple PCs in my DA list, just to keep my opponents honest.

Well, that, and to wipe out entire squads of deepstriking grey knights in one hit. Thats a pretty sight.

 

So whats the big deal? There is a way to prevent a single model from charging a single unit when that unit its backed up by another. So what? Learn to deal with it. Learn to work around it. You might think its cheesy and amoral, but it is legal according ot RAW. The only way to defeat such tactics is to learn their weaknesses and exploit them. It doesn't really matter if you or your friends would never use such a tactic, because some people will, and eventually you will be faced with it in a setting in which you can't simply walk away from it (read: tournament).

It has its major drawbacks and its not a perfect defense. If you're an assaulty army, then simply maneuver so that you can charge both units. If you are a shooty army, drop some templates. If your opponent is an uber tactician and has placed the two units such that they cannot be assaulted at all, then assult something else! Its not like you won't see it coming. If he wants to position his forces this way, they will have to be deployed closely together and will have to remain close together for the entire game. You'll be able to see it from the beginning, so simply adjust your strategy to compensate for it.

Actually what you should do is measure all the opponents bases who is trying to do this with a pair of calipers, a large portion of them will likely be less than 25mm, and thus illegal by the rules.

My point is this, how do you know a standard base is 25mm?  You actually don't.  It is likely off by a small amount.  That amount is normally insignificant, but it is not when you are trying to discern the difference between 1" and 25mm.  If an opponent is trying to pull this BS unassaultable squad business the onus is on him to prove his case.  He cannot because he can't measure the distance well enough to be able to.  This is a more valid way to argue it (an argument based on physical reality) should it come up then have a discussion about a rule that can be interpreted two ways. 

Posted By asmith on 06/15/2006 8:29 AM
Actually what you should do is measure all the opponents bases who is trying to do this with a pair of calipers, a large portion of them will likely be less than 25mm, and thus illegal by the rules.

Not if those smaller bases were in fact supplied with the models they are used for. There is no "base size standard" in the BGB. The only limitation is that you must use a base no smaller than the one physically supplied with the model. If that supplied base happens to be the size of a pinhead, its legal. Like wise, if your model was supplied with a 4'x4' sheet of plastic for its base, you're SOL if you want to mount him on a smaller one.

40k bases sizes run on the honor system.

Yet another reason you shouldn't assume the base your opponent has is actually 25mm ... like I said argue the point all you want for whatever version has 3cm as the standard, for a 1" standard it's ludacris to even bring it up.

But it doesn't matter how big the base is.

You declare your charge against multiple units (in this case the two interspaced units).

The only requirement for the charge against both units to be successful is one model making it into Base-to-base.

Therefore, the first model (or single model) can come within 1" of a unit they don't make it to Base-to-base with because they are in fact charging the second unit just as much as they are charging the first.