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This weekend my playgroup is doing a 2 round 1000 point gaming night. Im playing my new t-sons and I have a plan that im wondering what people think. I am running a DP and a E. Sorcerer on disk, and along with some chaff and a defiler ill be running either 15 rubrics, or 5 occult termies and 5 rubrics. Which would be better in an all-comers list? If I run rubrics, ill probably play them pretty standard midrange gunline. If I go termies, I plan to buff the everloving christ out of them and make them a hard to kill threat magnet.

I don't know Thousand Sons very well but my instinct says go for the Scarab Occult; five Terminators have the same wound count and shooting as ten Rubrics but they also get better melee and better saves. They may be slower but I suspect you'll be good with the rest of your army needing to live to turn two so you can make better use of teleport strike.

Given the prevalance of weapons that will put out more than one wound per shot and force you to solely rely on invuns for any kind of save my money would be on the rubrics.

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Given the prevalance of weapons that will put out more than one wound per shot and force you to solely rely on invuns for any kind of save my money would be on the rubrics.

But will there be many of those in a 1,000 pts list?

The armies ill be facing are tau, necrons, genestealers, orks and death guard. Most of the time they dont do multi wound weapons, and prefer AP or raw attacks

3x5 Rubrics - especially for the battalion.

Give on Temporal, one Weaver, and one Boon.
DP gets Gaze and Flickering Flames.
E. Sorc gets Warptime and Glamour.

Make the Defiler your distraction and most powerful target all at once. Rubrics heal it and give it +1 inv. E. Sorc moves it up table and give it -1 to hit. DP gives it +1 to wound.

Use CP to ignore it's move penalty and Daemonforge to increase it's efficiency even more.

Use Cabal since you have tons of sorcs to force through important spells.

Meanwhile cast Boon on the E.Sorc. Maybe give him Seer's Bane since DMC won't be super useful. Third Eye might not either at these points.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
3x5 Rubrics - especially for the battalion.

Give on Temporal, one Weaver, and one Boon.
DP gets Gaze and Flickering Flames.
E. Sorc gets Warptime and Glamour.

Make the Defiler your distraction and most powerful target all at once. Rubrics heal it and give it +1 inv. E. Sorc moves it up table and give it -1 to hit. DP gives it +1 to wound.

Use CP to ignore it's move penalty and Daemonforge to increase it's efficiency even more.

Use Cabal since you have tons of sorcs to force through important spells.

Meanwhile cast Boon on the E.Sorc. Maybe give him Seer's Bane since DMC won't be super useful. Third Eye might not either at these points.

My defiler is one of the few on planet earth kitted out with a Havoc Launcher + Twin Lascannon, for a 48" range backline tank. It works great, but it is not an up front distraction.

A thousand point game is going to hurt if you try to bring in either. A squad of 5 SoTs or 10 Rubrics is 1/4th your point total. Leaving little room for anything else. I myself would never take either in a game this small. Tzaangors, cultists and horrors are the choice here (for me anyhow). But this does not answer your question. If I was forced to bring one of those units I would have to say SoT's. Rubrics can peril and wipe out a MSU squad. At least with the SoTs the sorc can eat two wounds on a peril. I tend to be a more careful player than most. And I never really cast with my rubrics in the first place simply due to the chance of perils. I certainly do not give them key powers such as weaver or glamour. But it also depends on the amount of plasma that is on the table. If they are packing plasma go rubrics. Otherwise SoTs.

Table wrote:
A thousand point game is going to hurt if you try to bring in either. A squad of 5 SoTs or 10 Rubrics is 1/4th your point total. Leaving little room for anything else. I myself would never take either in a game this small. Tzaangors, cultists and horrors are the choice here (for me anyhow). But this does not answer your question. If I was forced to bring one of those units I would have to say SoT's. Rubrics can peril and wipe out a MSU squad. At least with the SoTs the sorc can eat two wounds on a peril. I tend to be a more careful player than most. And I never really cast with my rubrics in the first place simply due to the chance of perils. I certainly do not give them key powers such as weaver or glamour. But it also depends on the amount of plasma that is on the table. If they are packing plasma go rubrics. Otherwise SoTs.

I can assure you the chances of plasma or plasma-like guns are slim. Also, the odds of getting perils are pretty dang slim. And it's something i'm more than happy to spend a CP on to reroll out of/

 vaklor4 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
3x5 Rubrics - especially for the battalion.

Give on Temporal, one Weaver, and one Boon.
DP gets Gaze and Flickering Flames.
E. Sorc gets Warptime and Glamour.

Make the Defiler your distraction and most powerful target all at once. Rubrics heal it and give it +1 inv. E. Sorc moves it up table and give it -1 to hit. DP gives it +1 to wound.

Use CP to ignore it's move penalty and Daemonforge to increase it's efficiency even more.

Use Cabal since you have tons of sorcs to force through important spells.

Meanwhile cast Boon on the E.Sorc. Maybe give him Seer's Bane since DMC won't be super useful. Third Eye might not either at these points.

My defiler is one of the few on planet earth kitted out with a Havoc Launcher + Twin Lascannon, for a 48" range backline tank. It works great, but it is not an up front distraction.

How do you deal with the 5 BS when you move? I hate shooty demon engines for this very fact. Now this statement, its mine, what works for you works for you. But I think ranged demon engines are terrible choices. Mileage may vary. I almost never hit with the battle cannon due to movement. For just a few more points I could get a triple las pred or go forgeworld for a contemptor with c-beams. Once more, this is my thoughts. I'm glad what works for you works for you. I am just generally interested on how you overcome BS 5.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vaklor4 wrote:

Table wrote:
A thousand point game is going to hurt if you try to bring in either. A squad of 5 SoTs or 10 Rubrics is 1/4th your point total. Leaving little room for anything else. I myself would never take either in a game this small. Tzaangors, cultists and horrors are the choice here (for me anyhow). But this does not answer your question. If I was forced to bring one of those units I would have to say SoT's. Rubrics can peril and wipe out a MSU squad. At least with the SoTs the sorc can eat two wounds on a peril. I tend to be a more careful player than most. And I never really cast with my rubrics in the first place simply due to the chance of perils. I certainly do not give them key powers such as weaver or glamour. But it also depends on the amount of plasma that is on the table. If they are packing plasma go rubrics. Otherwise SoTs.

I can assure you the chances of plasma or plasma-like guns are slim. Also, the odds of getting perils are pretty dang slim. And it's something i'm more than happy to spend a CP on to reroll out of/

Valid. As I said I am more careful than most. So that colors my play and tactics. And with few plasmas then I definitely say SoTs all the way.

Table wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
3x5 Rubrics - especially for the battalion.

Give on Temporal, one Weaver, and one Boon.
DP gets Gaze and Flickering Flames.
E. Sorc gets Warptime and Glamour.

Make the Defiler your distraction and most powerful target all at once. Rubrics heal it and give it +1 inv. E. Sorc moves it up table and give it -1 to hit. DP gives it +1 to wound.

Use CP to ignore it's move penalty and Daemonforge to increase it's efficiency even more.

Use Cabal since you have tons of sorcs to force through important spells.

Meanwhile cast Boon on the E.Sorc. Maybe give him Seer's Bane since DMC won't be super useful. Third Eye might not either at these points.

My defiler is one of the few on planet earth kitted out with a Havoc Launcher + Twin Lascannon, for a 48" range backline tank. It works great, but it is not an up front distraction.

How do you deal with the 5 BS when you move? I hate shooty demon engines for this very fact. Now this statement, its mine, what works for you works for you. But I think ranged demon engines are terrible choices. Mileage may vary. I almost never hit with the battle cannon due to movement. For just a few more points I could get a triple las pred or go forgeworld for a contemptor with c-beams. Once more, this is my thoughts. I'm glad what works for you works for you. I am just generally interested on how you overcome BS 5.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vaklor4 wrote:

Table wrote:
A thousand point game is going to hurt if you try to bring in either. A squad of 5 SoTs or 10 Rubrics is 1/4th your point total. Leaving little room for anything else. I myself would never take either in a game this small. Tzaangors, cultists and horrors are the choice here (for me anyhow). But this does not answer your question. If I was forced to bring one of those units I would have to say SoT's. Rubrics can peril and wipe out a MSU squad. At least with the SoTs the sorc can eat two wounds on a peril. I tend to be a more careful player than most. And I never really cast with my rubrics in the first place simply due to the chance of perils. I certainly do not give them key powers such as weaver or glamour. But it also depends on the amount of plasma that is on the table. If they are packing plasma go rubrics. Otherwise SoTs.

I can assure you the chances of plasma or plasma-like guns are slim. Also, the odds of getting perils are pretty dang slim. And it's something i'm more than happy to spend a CP on to reroll out of/

Valid. As I said I am more careful than most. So that colors my play and tactics. And with few plasmas then I definitely say SoTs all the way.

48" range weapons. I pretty much never move, or I move once, and only once to get a different view of the field. Also, my Defiler is 201 points, and is FAR harder to kill than a las pred. And it deals with elites and marines better than las. Lascannons are anti-tank, my Defiler can fire anti-tank, anti-elite and anti-horde weapons. Sure, it's not wiping anything off the face of the planet in a single turn, but it never feels useless. Additionally, even in the back field I still find that it is a fire magnet for lascannons and the like, and with that constant regeneration and the fact you'll never get it higher than a 5+ to save, it's a very, very robust gunline model.

 vaklor4 wrote:

My defiler is one of the few on planet earth kitted out with a Havoc Launcher + Twin Lascannon, for a 48" range backline tank. It works great, but it is not an up front distraction.

Why not? It still has 4 claw attacks and it's not like you'll have a ton of things to spend CP on. Make the LC wound on 2s. Keep the move penalty off with blasphemous.

If you want to gunline it that's fine, but the defiler should be what is between orks and genestealers and your rubrics.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:

My defiler is one of the few on planet earth kitted out with a Havoc Launcher + Twin Lascannon, for a 48" range backline tank. It works great, but it is not an up front distraction.

Why not? It still has 4 claw attacks and it's not like you'll have a ton of things to spend CP on. Make the LC wound on 2s. Keep the move penalty off with blasphemous.

If you want to gunline it that's fine, but the defiler should be what is between orks and genestealers and your rubrics.

I mainly play World Eaters, so 90% of the time my T-sons are a secondary detachment...So usually THOSE are what is between my rubrics and the enemy

 vaklor4 wrote:

Table wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
3x5 Rubrics - especially for the battalion.

Give on Temporal, one Weaver, and one Boon.
DP gets Gaze and Flickering Flames.
E. Sorc gets Warptime and Glamour.

Make the Defiler your distraction and most powerful target all at once. Rubrics heal it and give it +1 inv. E. Sorc moves it up table and give it -1 to hit. DP gives it +1 to wound.

Use CP to ignore it's move penalty and Daemonforge to increase it's efficiency even more.

Use Cabal since you have tons of sorcs to force through important spells.

Meanwhile cast Boon on the E.Sorc. Maybe give him Seer's Bane since DMC won't be super useful. Third Eye might not either at these points.

My defiler is one of the few on planet earth kitted out with a Havoc Launcher + Twin Lascannon, for a 48" range backline tank. It works great, but it is not an up front distraction.

How do you deal with the 5 BS when you move? I hate shooty demon engines for this very fact. Now this statement, its mine, what works for you works for you. But I think ranged demon engines are terrible choices. Mileage may vary. I almost never hit with the battle cannon due to movement. For just a few more points I could get a triple las pred or go forgeworld for a contemptor with c-beams. Once more, this is my thoughts. I'm glad what works for you works for you. I am just generally interested on how you overcome BS 5.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vaklor4 wrote:

Table wrote:
A thousand point game is going to hurt if you try to bring in either. A squad of 5 SoTs or 10 Rubrics is 1/4th your point total. Leaving little room for anything else. I myself would never take either in a game this small. Tzaangors, cultists and horrors are the choice here (for me anyhow). But this does not answer your question. If I was forced to bring one of those units I would have to say SoT's. Rubrics can peril and wipe out a MSU squad. At least with the SoTs the sorc can eat two wounds on a peril. I tend to be a more careful player than most. And I never really cast with my rubrics in the first place simply due to the chance of perils. I certainly do not give them key powers such as weaver or glamour. But it also depends on the amount of plasma that is on the table. If they are packing plasma go rubrics. Otherwise SoTs.

I can assure you the chances of plasma or plasma-like guns are slim. Also, the odds of getting perils are pretty dang slim. And it's something i'm more than happy to spend a CP on to reroll out of/

Valid. As I said I am more careful than most. So that colors my play and tactics. And with few plasmas then I definitely say SoTs all the way.

48" range weapons. I pretty much never move, or I move once, and only once to get a different view of the field. Also, my Defiler is 201 points, and is FAR harder to kill than a las pred. And it deals with elites and marines better than las. Lascannons are anti-tank, my Defiler can fire anti-tank, anti-elite and anti-horde weapons. Sure, it's not wiping anything off the face of the planet in a single turn, but it never feels useless. Additionally, even in the back field I still find that it is a fire magnet for lascannons and the like, and with that constant regeneration and the fact you'll never get it higher than a 5+ to save, it's a very, very robust gunline model.

Perhaps ill give your tactic a whirl. Could not hurt. I'm always open to the possibility that I am wrong.

Trust me it is by no means a godlike strategy...But you show me another heavy support unit that is anti-infantry, anti-tank, anti-elite, with anti-tank melee weapons for CC. It is one of the most jack of all trades units in the game.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Given the prevalance of weapons that will put out more than one wound per shot and force you to solely rely on invuns for any kind of save my money would be on the rubrics.

But will there be many of those in a 1,000 pts list?

Are you saying multi-wound weapons or rubrics?

To answer both options:

1) yes, plenty of multi-wound weapons, DE are an example.

2) more rubrics than if you took Occult

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Given the prevalance of weapons that will put out more than one wound per shot and force you to solely rely on invuns for any kind of save my money would be on the rubrics.

But will there be many of those in a 1,000 pts list?

Are you saying multi-wound weapons or rubrics?

To answer both options:

1) yes, plenty of multi-wound weapons, DE are an example.

2) more rubrics than if you took Occult

I'm still in the park that although normal terminators are clearly worse than taking troops, I think the abilities of Scarab Occults make up for it. If they hunker down in cover, it takes a lot of AP to do any meaningful armor penetration, and their fire power is pretty steller.

Rubrics are just better in this instance due to a battalion. If you are planning to buff the hell out of the defiler anyway, it can eat your command points. I second everything Daedalus has said.

If you can let your defiler be a cp drain, do. A buffed up defiler in someone's face is scarier than a backline one and means your enemy is now focusing the toughest thing in your army- allowing time for everything else to get some hurt done.

Use blasphemous machines, and warptime and you have it in their face turn one with no penalty on shooting. Then buff it into hell with flickering flames, glamour, weaver etc.

But anyway- 3x5 rubrics all the way and a seers bane disc sorc.

 vaklor4 wrote:
Trust me it is by no means a godlike strategy...But you show me another heavy support unit that is anti-infantry, anti-tank, anti-elite, with anti-tank melee weapons for CC. It is one of the most jack of all trades units in the game.

Hellforged leviathan does the first three exponentially better with grav flux bombard and has four strength 8 attacks in close combat.

Nature's Minister wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
Trust me it is by no means a godlike strategy...But you show me another heavy support unit that is anti-infantry, anti-tank, anti-elite, with anti-tank melee weapons for CC. It is one of the most jack of all trades units in the game.

Hellforged leviathan does the first three exponentially better with grav flux bombard and has four strength 8 attacks in close combat.

Well those are pillow-fisted attacks and 339 points with pretty short range.

So played my games yesterday against DG and Orks...The termies were absolutely terrifying. They shredded, and took a lot of abuse before going down, where the rubric marines died fairly easily by comparison. The defiler also absorbed pretty much all my multi wound weapons from my enemies, because it was equally scary against both their infantry and their tanks, and with rerolls and +1 to wound from my DP was doing more than its points in work.

(However in the first gamr my opponent did the unthinkable and killed him last turn with a smite on an 11 fot d6...And rolled 6!)