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Hey All,

Firstly, apologies if this is a really silly question, but i had a quick browse online and couldn't find an answer, so I decided to ask you helpful folk here at DakkaDakka.

So, in the Shooting phase section of the Rules it says "each model in the unit shoots with all the ranged weapons it is armed with"

So, imagine i had a Predator with Heavy Bolters and a Hunter Killer Missile, if i select the Predator to shoot its Heavy Bolters at say, some T'au, do i have to fire my HK Missile also?

What if i didn't want to use my HK Missile until a later turn when say, his vehicles were on the board etc.

Thanks in advance

While I'm not sure where this is addressed (or if it is), no one is ever forced to fire weapons during a Shooting phase.

That rule is clarifying you can shoot all your stuff, as opposed to having to choose which to fire to the exclusion of others.

There’s one contrarian round here who will be along soon to argue that you *must* fire all your weapons every time you fire or you’re cheating, meaning you have to fire your single use stuff right away, but that’s an internet-only issue as no-one actually plays the game like that. Not one single batrep, tournament or game I’ve played has seen it played like that. So you’re just fine saving that missile until you want to use it. Permission to fire is not obligation to fire.

Someone asked this on the Warhammer 40,000 Facebook page and they said they'd pass it on up to the Design Studio, so hopefully we'll see it in the FAQ come September...

The rule is written badly, and strictly speaking you'd have to fire All weapons at one target or EACH weapon at a different target.
HIWPI is that you can a) choose to not fire one or more weapons, and b) that you can assign more than one weapon at the same target when targeting multiple targets. As Johnny said - that's the only way I've ever seen it played anywhere.

Thanks for the swift reply as usual folks, Its as i hoped.

madcapmushroom wrote:
Thanks for the swift reply as usual folks, Its as i hoped.

No problemo.

GW has mediocre grammar and it seems they don't hire technical editors. However, in almost every single case of a poorly worded rule the intent is obvious. There are a handful of people here who insist on throwing their internet-penis around, claiming that the strict wording is paramount and everyone in the world (except them, in their elite throne of perfection) are playing the game wrong. Not coincidentally, every single thread on this portion of the forum that has purported something silly like this has been proven wrong by eventual FAQ, Errata or even GW simply saying "No, that's dumb, why would you think that?".

When it doubt, go for your gut and the intent of the rule.

Section 1, in the shooting has the RAW answer on this one.

Can we now stop with the circlejerk about BCB? This is ridiculous - he's not even in this thread.

Yes, you do, if you decide to fire, that is. It's all or nothing.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/757932.page#10003112

 Elbows wrote:
While I'm not sure where this is addressed (or if it is), no one is ever forced to fire weapons during a Shooting phase.

Sorry but this is blatantly incorrect. If you fire anything, you have to fire EVERYTHING. Please don't muddy the waters with incorrect answers.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Yes, you do, if you decide to fire, that is. It's all or nothing.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/757932.page#10003112

 Elbows wrote:
While I'm not sure where this is addressed (or if it is), no one is ever forced to fire weapons during a Shooting phase.

Sorry but this is blatantly incorrect. If you fire anything, you have to fire EVERYTHING. Please don't muddy the waters with incorrect answers.

RAW you have to fire the one shot weapons as well as normal weapons if you are firing at one target unit. RAI (and how most people have played it) is that you don't have to fire one shot weapons. Just check with your opponents first to make sure they're okay with not having to fire one shot weapons or check with the T.O. if it's a tournament - odds are they will let you not fire the HK missile if you don't want to.

Of course, at the risk of getting into the woods even deeper, technically by RAW you might not have to fire the HK missile if you are firing at multiple units. You are given permission to fire everything at one target, or fire each weapon at a different target. (Note that this means that by admittedly silly RAW you couldn't fire multiple weapons at one unit and another weapon at a second unit). If you have more units within range to shoot at than weapons, you wouldn't have to fire the HK missilbe playing by strict RAW because each weapon has to target a different unit, and if you run out of new units to target before you get to the HK missles you can't fire them because of lack of different units to fire at. Or the game breaks down by trying to follow strict RAW and you both pack up and go home. Best to just clarify with opponents beforehand if they're going to force you to fire the HK missile the first time you shoot. You can make sure they're also okay with how 99% of people play that you can fire more than one weapon at one unit and a different weapon at a second unit.

Funny how when I say the majority of people play by the rules, everyone throws a fit, but when others say "99% of people play" in a way that ignores the rules, no-one else cares.

The rules are very clear on how you shoot things. If you don't follow them, that's called not following the rules, and replacing it with a house rule. I for one enjoy playing the game by the rules, I am sure others enjoy not playing by the rules. Swings and Roundabouts and all that jazz. Nothing wrong with using house rules. What is wrong is then stating your house rules are the "correct" way to play.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Funny how when I say the majority of people play by the rules, everyone throws a fit, but when others say "99% of people play" in a way that ignores the rules, no-one else cares.

The rules are very clear on how you shoot things. If you don't follow them, that's called not following the rules, and replacing it with a house rule. I for one enjoy playing the game by the rules, I am sure others enjoy not playing by the rules. Swings and Roundabouts and all that jazz. Nothing wrong with using house rules. What is wrong is then stating your house rules are the "correct" way to play.

You seem to get a lot of flak, but I don't come here looking for people's opinions on how the rules should be played or what the rules seem to imply. I come here to know precisely what the rule is so that I can decide whether or not I think I need to house rule it or if it sounds like an appropriate rule.

This rules question sounds like it needs to be cleared up via FAQ because, as far as I can tell, your interpretation is correct without any uncertainty, but I'm also very confident that that's not how GW intended for the rules to be used. So me and my friends don't play with such a strict ruling, but it's important to understand which rules are house rules and which rules are strictly RAW.

Actually you can parse that sentence differently, but BCB isn't here to discuss, just state.
Given you ca;parse it in the way that essentially every real life person I've ever played against, plays it, suggests that one parsing is closer to the intended meaning of the rule than the other.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Funny how when I say the majority of people play by the rules, everyone throws a fit, but when others say "99% of people play" in a way that ignores the rules, no-one else cares.

The rules are very clear on how you shoot things. If you don't follow them, that's called not following the rules, and replacing it with a house rule. I for one enjoy playing the game by the rules, I am sure others enjoy not playing by the rules. Swings and Roundabouts and all that jazz. Nothing wrong with using house rules. What is wrong is then stating your house rules are the "correct" way to play.

Which is why I said by RAW you have to fire if you're firing your weapons at one target, and to discuss with your opponent beforehand how you want to play firing one shot weapons or if you can fire multiple weapons at one target and another weapon at a second target. That's people agreeing to a house rule if they want to play it that way.

I guess that since you play by RAW you don't allow people to fire more than one weapon at a unit if the model is splitting it's fire between different targets, and that if they have, for example, 6 weapons including 1 HK Missile but only 4 target units to shoot at, you won't make them fire the HK Missile because by RAW each weapon has to fire at a different unit, so they can choose which 4 out of the 6 weapons they are firing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kharneth wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Funny how when I say the majority of people play by the rules, everyone throws a fit, but when others say "99% of people play" in a way that ignores the rules, no-one else cares.

The rules are very clear on how you shoot things. If you don't follow them, that's called not following the rules, and replacing it with a house rule. I for one enjoy playing the game by the rules, I am sure others enjoy not playing by the rules. Swings and Roundabouts and all that jazz. Nothing wrong with using house rules. What is wrong is then stating your house rules are the "correct" way to play.

You seem to get a lot of flak, but I don't come here looking for people's opinions on how the rules should be played or what the rules seem to imply. I come here to know precisely what the rule is so that I can decide whether or not I think I need to house rule it or if it sounds like an appropriate rule.

This rules question sounds like it needs to be cleared up via FAQ because, as far as I can tell, your interpretation is correct without any uncertainty, but I'm also very confident that that's not how GW intended for the rules to be used. So me and my friends don't play with such a strict ruling, but it's important to understand which rules are house rules and which rules are strictly RAW.

Yes, it really should be cleared up in a FAQ. It might be that GW thinks "Don't be silly, it should be obvious you don't have to", but what they wrote doesn't make it obvious, and it wouldn't be obvious to people who haven't started with several previous editions. They really should have a clarifying note somewhere. There shouldn't be any problems playing it the way you are, realizing it's really a house rule you're using even if most people are playing by the same house rule.

nekooni wrote:
The rule is written badly, and strictly speaking you'd have to fire All weapons at one target or EACH weapon at a different target.

"Unless otherwise stated, each model in the unit attacks with all of the ranged weapons it is armed with.", Page179, Choose unit to shoot with. I'm not quite sure how this rule is badly written? It seems pretty clear cut to me. Would love to hear other intepretations of this part though and form a personal opinion thereafter.

 Nighttail wrote:

nekooni wrote:
The rule is written badly, and strictly speaking you'd have to fire All weapons at one target or EACH weapon at a different target.

"Unless otherwise stated, each model in the unit attacks with all of the ranged weapons it is armed with.", Page179, Choose unit to shoot with. I'm not quite sure how this rule is badly written? It seems pretty clear cut to me. Would love to hear other intepretations of this part though and form a personal opinion thereafter.

Well you see, all doesn't mean all, it means some.

But to be fair nekooni is referring to a different issue than the one at hand. https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/754650.page

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Well you see, all doesn't mean all, it means some.
But to be fair nekooni is referring to a different issue than the one at hand. https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/754650.page

Ah, fair enough. I'd say on that note that one can choose to fire for instance two weapons at one target and one at another. Though I'll agree that the rule itself is somewhat muddy.

The underlying issue to me seems to that strict Rules As Writen is not how the designer's play the game so don't feel it needs FAQ'd. 
I get the impression that they explain the rules verbally instead of writing it out then seeing how the play testers interpret the pure RAW.

Which is a totally flawed testing method but it explains a lot of their terible RAW vrs RAI/Rules as they always used to be.

Ice_can wrote:
The underlying issue to me seems to that strict Rules As Writen is not how the designer's play the game so don't feel it needs FAQ'd. 
I get the impression that they explain the rules verbally instead of writing it out then seeing how the play testers interpret the pure RAW.

Which is a totally flawed testing method but it explains a lot of their terible RAW vrs RAI/Rules as they always used to be.

Literally nobody plays 100% RAW. It\s flat out impossible. Game would halt into infinite block. So anybody claiming they play 100% RAW is by definition flat out lier.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Yes, you do, if you decide to fire, that is. It's all or nothing.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/757932.page#10003112

 Elbows wrote:
While I'm not sure where this is addressed (or if it is), no one is ever forced to fire weapons during a Shooting phase.

Sorry but this is blatantly incorrect. If you fire anything, you have to fire EVERYTHING. Please don't muddy the waters with incorrect answers.

Don't muddy every thread on Dakka with your banal crusade of righteousness? Fair trade.

tneva82 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
The underlying issue to me seems to that strict Rules As Writen is not how the designer's play the game so don't feel it needs FAQ'd. 
I get the impression that they explain the rules verbally instead of writing it out then seeing how the play testers interpret the pure RAW.

Which is a totally flawed testing method but it explains a lot of their terible RAW vrs RAI/Rules as they always used to be.

Literally nobody plays 100% RAW. It\s flat out impossible. Game would halt into infinite block. So anybody claiming they play 100% RAW is by definition flat out lier.

So far I've only found 2 situations that could cause the game to break, and the easy solution is to just not do them.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Nighttail wrote:

nekooni wrote:
The rule is written badly, and strictly speaking you'd have to fire All weapons at one target or EACH weapon at a different target.

"Unless otherwise stated, each model in the unit attacks with all of the ranged weapons it is armed with.", Page179, Choose unit to shoot with. I'm not quite sure how this rule is badly written? It seems pretty clear cut to me. Would love to hear other intepretations of this part though and form a personal opinion thereafter.

Well you see, all doesn't mean all, it means some.

But to be fair nekooni is referring to a different issue than the one at hand. https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/754650.page

The issue is that GW propably intended for you to choose if and when you fire your one use weapons. And the rules as written do not support that. I'd call that badly written.

Oh, I fully agree it's badly written. I fully agree that ALL of the examples listed in my signature, both the unfixed and the now removed and fixed ones, are/were badly written. That is what errata is for. What me thinking or you thinking they are badly written doesn't change is what the rule says though, otherwise you can, with equal footing, also argue that it's "badly written" that Marines only have 1 wound instead of 30.

This whole thread has basically been sent up with Mod Alerts.

Temporary lock while I sort this out.

-=Edit, Addendum=- The question has been answered, both with "by RAW:yes, by the way people play it: no".

The two groups are NOT going to see eye to eye. I'd delete this thread, but I want to leave it up as a warning to others.

Also, just a reminder, that there is an Ignore function for posters you don't like. Alternately, you can just skip reading their posts.