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JmOz01 wrote:
I am having a real hard time wrapping my brain around why meltaguns are better than plasma guns (based on price) for IG.

I currently have 20 special weapons in my army list...because of some psychoses of mine I have an inclination to put 4 of each in. But as I look at meltaguns I feel that the plasma gun is so much better and cheaper. So I ask, what am I missing. Experience is more important to me than math btw...

You're not missing anything. Plasma guns are currently outperforming meltaguns.

In short, plasma has the versatility of being used against a variety of targets to great effect and has typical range. Meltaguns are dedicated vehicle/monster/character slayers. The way to get the most out of your meltaguns is to make sure they are shooting at vehicles or monsters.

The meltagun has some advantages over the plasma gun:
Meltaguns come with no risk; they do not overheat.
Meltaguns do d6 damage instead of 1 or 2. On average this means you're dealing 3-4 damage per unsaved wound.
Really, the only points justification for taking a meltagun is getting those half-range shots in (6") where you roll 2d6 for damage and pick the highest. Meltaguns can reliably deal 4-5 wounds up close.

If you don't have a reliable plan to get within 6" of an enemy vehicle or monster, you'll probably have more luck with your plasma.

OP, ask yourself this:

Does my list have enough to counter vehicles and monsters?

The choice between Plasma and Melta also comes down to your army composition as a whole. As an Imperial Guard player, you have a lot of options for anti-tank weaponry. If you're already fielding sufficient anti-tank weapons than you're probably better off getting all Plasma. If you have a lack of anti-tank than the extra power from a meltagun over a plasma gun might be more important to you.

If you really just want to use all of the special weapons, find which of your units would be able to use the meltaguns to the greatest effect. I think your rough riders is the right choice, however as has already been stated, BS 4+ isn't going to do your meltaguns any favors. You'll need 2 meltaguns if you want to get a single hit, but 4 meltaguns on a rough rider squad should be able to take down a vehicle.

My buddy lost 3 Plague Marines (including his Champion) because he decided to try to pop my rhino (using smoke) with some overcharged rapid fire shots. He had a lord and everything. Rolled 3 too many 1s and then kept them on the reroll. He will never overcharge his plasma again, he says.

At close range, the Meltagun is definitely superior. Under 12", the plasma gun needs to risk hurting itself and also (somewhat) needs rerollable 1s in order to mitigate (not negate!) the risk. Only after combining this reroll and the risk does the Plasma gun begin to be roughly equal to the meltagun. But if you're within 6" the meltagun is better and comes with no risk whatsoever and doesn't require support (unless you want to count the "thing" that helped the melta to get into range).

On guard, I think plasma is the way to go. The risk is mostly irrelevant because your dudes are cannon fodder and the meltagun needs precision, which the guardsmen lack. I don't see people giving their guardsmen special weapons, though. I see people using them as bare minimum troops to do nothing except screen their tanks, secure objectives, and provide CP.

 Jaxler wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:
My buddy lost 3 Plague Marines (including his Champion) because he decided to try to pop my rhino (using smoke) with some overcharged rapid fire shots. He had a lord and everything. Rolled 3 too many 1s and then kept them on the reroll. He will never overcharge his plasma again, he says.

At close range, the Meltagun is definitely superior. Under 12", the plasma gun needs to risk hurting itself and also (somewhat) needs rerollable 1s in order to mitigate (not negate!) the risk. Only after combining this reroll and the risk does the Plasma gun begin to be roughly equal to the meltagun. But if you're within 6" the meltagun is better and comes with no risk whatsoever and doesn't require support (unless you want to count the "thing" that helped the melta to get into range).

On guard, I think plasma is the way to go. The risk is mostly irrelevant because your dudes are cannon fodder and the meltagun needs precision, which the guardsmen lack. I don't see people giving their guardsmen special weapons, though. I see people using them as bare minimum troops to do nothing except screen their tanks, secure objectives, and provide CP.

Under 12 inches plasma is better. In fact, only under 6 is melta better sometimes. In fact, your only really getting one extra wound through on average. Plasma has advanatages though, like having 2 shots, multiple profiles, and the ability to kill 2 guys, or put 4 wounds on 1 target.

2 shots of plasma at a leman Russ. You’ll hit with about 2 shots probably, wound with one, and get 2 wounds through.

Melta, you’ve already a 1/3 chance of missing, then you’ve a 1/2 chance of failing to wound. You then need to roll well and be closer to the damn thing than you can deep strike if you want to out preform plasma (4 dmg is better than 3.5 average).

Between 12" and 6" the plasma and melta are roughly equal when targeting vehicles/monsters (I'm ignoring infantry completely). Under 6" the meltagun becomes superior.

You're being very unfair with your statistics here. Rounding up for the plasma gun, assuming it'll hit with all its shots, ignoring the probability of rolling 1s, and giving the meltagun an average of 3.5 damage when in fact the average is higher when you get to the best out of 2d6. Let's assume you're BS 4+, like IG. A plasma gun can rapid fire to deal 2-4 s8 hits. 1 will hit and 1 will miss. 66% of that 1 will wound and will result in 1.32 wounds with likely only invulnerable saves. A meltagun will deal 0.5 hits and deal 0.3 wounds with only invulnerable saves. This becomes 1.16 if you only get the d6 damage, but becomes 1.32 if you roll a 4 or 1.66 if you roll a 5 for damage.

If you're targeting something with at least 4 or 5 wounds the melta and plasmagun are pretty similar in output, but the plasmagun comes with risks that result in dedicating a character aura to the unit. The real benefit of the plasma is that it has more opportunities to be effective and it has longer range. If you compare melta to plasma within 6" against a vehicle/monster than the meltagun is superior because it inflicts a bit more damage and requires no support/risk.

 Jaxler wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:
My buddy lost 3 Plague Marines (including his Champion) because he decided to try to pop my rhino (using smoke) with some overcharged rapid fire shots. He had a lord and everything. Rolled 3 too many 1s and then kept them on the reroll. He will never overcharge his plasma again, he says.

At close range, the Meltagun is definitely superior. Under 12", the plasma gun needs to risk hurting itself and also (somewhat) needs rerollable 1s in order to mitigate (not negate!) the risk. Only after combining this reroll and the risk does the Plasma gun begin to be roughly equal to the meltagun. But if you're within 6" the meltagun is better and comes with no risk whatsoever and doesn't require support (unless you want to count the "thing" that helped the melta to get into range).

On guard, I think plasma is the way to go. The risk is mostly irrelevant because your dudes are cannon fodder and the meltagun needs precision, which the guardsmen lack. I don't see people giving their guardsmen special weapons, though. I see people using them as bare minimum troops to do nothing except screen their tanks, secure objectives, and provide CP.

Under 12 inches plasma is better. In fact, only under 6 is melta better sometimes. In fact, your only really getting one extra wound through on average. Plasma has advanatages though, like having 2 shots, multiple profiles, and the ability to kill 2 guys, or put 4 wounds on 1 target.

2 shots of plasma at a leman Russ. You’ll hit with about 2 shots probably, wound with one, and get 2 wounds through.

Melta, you’ve already a 1/3 chance of missing, then you’ve a 1/2 chance of failing to wound. You then need to roll well and be closer to the damn thing than you can deep strike if you want to out preform plasma (4 dmg is better than 3.5 average).

Between 12" and 6" the plasma and melta are roughly equal when targeting vehicles/monsters (I'm ignoring infantry completely). Under 6" the meltagun becomes superior.

You're being very unfair with your statistics here. Rounding up for the plasma gun, assuming it'll hit with all its shots, ignoring the probability of rolling 1s, and giving the meltagun an average of 3.5 damage when in fact the average is higher when you get to the best out of 2d6. Let's assume you're BS 4+, like IG. A plasma gun can rapid fire to deal 2-4 s8 hits. 1 will hit and 1 will miss. 66% of that 1 will wound and will result in 1.32 wounds with likely only invulnerable saves. A meltagun will deal 0.5 hits and deal 0.3 wounds with only invulnerable saves. This becomes 1.16 if you only get the d6 damage, but becomes 1.32 if you roll a 4 or 1.66 if you roll a 5 for damage.

If you're targeting something with at least 4 or 5 wounds the melta and plasmagun are pretty similar in output, but the plasmagun comes with risks that result in dedicating a character aura to the unit. The real benefit of the plasma is that it has more opportunities to be effective and it has longer range. If you compare melta to plasma within 6" against a vehicle/monster than the meltagun is superior because it inflicts a bit more damage and requires no support/risk.

If you need something to be 6 inches away to do its job and it’s on a shooting unit, odds are it’s bad. You can’t deep strike close enough to use melta where it’s better than plasma, so it’s pretty trash.

I agree. Meltaguns are ineffective because their range is too short and Multimeltas are ineffective because they aren't assault weapons.

None of that negates the fact that meltagun beats the plasmagun at damaging vehicles within 6". You don't want to do improper probability when you're comparing weapons, especially if you already have a preference. A rapid firing overcharged plasma gun on a space marine is going to deal 1.78 damage (assuming no saves) to a t7 foe (with no rerolling) and has a 16% chance to kill itself in the process. A single meltagun on a space marine shooting within 6" is going to deal 1.78 damage (assuming no saves) to a t7 foe (with no rerolling) if it rolls a 3.5 for damage (which is impossible). On a 4, 5, or 6 the meltagun is better and on a 1, 2, or 3 it is worse. 2d6 pick the highest will likely have at least 1 4+.

Plasmagun is certainly the better choice, AND it's cheaper. But it's not better at doing what the meltagun does. It's the outside circumstances that make plasma better. You can't deep strike within 6", but you can within 12". You can't move a vehicle and then disembark with your meltagun.

tneva82 wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:
My buddy lost 3 Plague Marines (including his Champion) because he decided to try to pop my rhino (using smoke) with some overcharged rapid fire shots. He had a lord and everything. Rolled 3 too many 1s and then kept them on the reroll. He will never overcharge his plasma again, he says.

Excelent. The more people who put superstition and once in a blue moon events into decision the easier time others have winning.

At close range, the Meltagun is definitely superior. Under 12", the plasma gun needs to risk hurting itself and also (somewhat) needs rerollable 1s in order to mitigate (not negate!) the risk. Only after combining this reroll and the risk does the Plasma gun begin to be roughly equal to the meltagun. But if you're within 6" the meltagun is better and comes with no risk whatsoever and doesn't require support (unless you want to count the "thing" that helped the melta to get into range).

On guard, I think plasma is the way to go. The risk is mostly irrelevant because your dudes are cannon fodder and the meltagun needs precision, which the guardsmen lack. I don't see people giving their guardsmen special weapons, though. I see people using them as bare minimum troops to do nothing except screen their tanks, secure objectives, and provide CP.

It does not roughly equal. It exceeds it as long as we aren't talking about 2+ save vehicles. Not common niche. And rerolls are so common you could say automatic. Meanwhile melta, short of very few units like ravenwing bikers, will never get to 6" if opponent doesn't want to. The 6" range is bigger risk than overheat so your no risk whatsoever is platantly false. Getting within 6" is death sentence orde.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
I don't disagree Melta needs buffs. But I don't believe thats the way. The doubling your S in melta range of Martel is something I like more.

At least then it would have some scenario where it gets more damage than plasma. Albeit you will never really get to that situation but hey at least something.

I already did the math and posted it. Meltaguns are superior against vehicles (regardless of armor) when they are within 6".

Rerolls are far from automatic. It's easy to say that they're automatic when you play an army that can take a unit of 4 plasma guns, stick them next to a character and call it a day. It's very different when you're looking at a force where you want to sprinkle some special weapons here and there. When you have 4 independent units that all want a single special weapon, you're not going to grab 4 plasma guns and run around overcharging everything because you have free rerolling 1s.

I keep hearing Plasma guns are better, but what's actually being said is plasma guns with character support are better and we're ignoring the fact that we'll still lose guys. Every time I've had an enemy shoot me with their 4 plasma guns rerolling 1s with their character one of them dies. That's with the rerolls and no modifiers. The meltagun will never die unless your opponent chooses to kill it.

Plasma guns are better, I'm not denying that, but they do not out-damage plasma guns when they are within 6" of a vehicle. If you're getting rerolls on 1s with your plasma guns than surely the meltaguns deserve the same buff. You can't claim that plasma guns are more worth their points and then neglect to factor in the 40-100 points it costs for the rerolls.

When was the multimelta a blast weapon? I don't remember that from any of the editions I've played.

For the multimelta rationale, this is my thought:

Melta clearly is more powerful when you're closer to your target. I really appreciated how the Space Marine video game used meltaguns like shotguns with a spread that made it so they dealt more damage from closer distances. With this rationale, the multimelta does not shoot twice because that's not the function of the additional barrel. The multimelta instead has increased range because the additional barrel is amplifying the heat that is shot out. More heat will allow it to travel a further distance. It's still one, brief explosion of intense heat traveling over a short distance, but with the added barrel and added heat, the effect is carried further before it dissipates.

Otherwise, you'd be talking about twin meltaguns which would have 2 shots but would be the same range as the regular meltagun.

Martel732 wrote:
2nd ed it had a blast marker, which was devastating vs vehicles.

Oh wow. I started in 4th.