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Inferno pistols can sometimes let you nuke something you are fighting in CC and then charge something new. That's kinda worthwhile.

Martel732 wrote:
Make melta double strength in melta range. This will cause more wounds, and force more saves. As it stands, melta can't force enough saves to be remotely worthwhile.

That is simple enough of a fix - it causes more successful hits to wound, makes it better at hurting what it is supposed to hurt, and doesn't balloon the number of wounds it causes per successful hit. tl;dr: I like that idea a lot.

Why is melts still str 8 even after removing the old melta rules?

Because GW can't do math.

My buddy lost 3 Plague Marines (including his Champion) because he decided to try to pop my rhino (using smoke) with some overcharged rapid fire shots. He had a lord and everything. Rolled 3 too many 1s and then kept them on the reroll. He will never overcharge his plasma again, he says.

At close range, the Meltagun is definitely superior. Under 12", the plasma gun needs to risk hurting itself and also (somewhat) needs rerollable 1s in order to mitigate (not negate!) the risk. Only after combining this reroll and the risk does the Plasma gun begin to be roughly equal to the meltagun. But if you're within 6" the meltagun is better and comes with no risk whatsoever and doesn't require support (unless you want to count the "thing" that helped the melta to get into range).

On guard, I think plasma is the way to go. The risk is mostly irrelevant because your dudes are cannon fodder and the meltagun needs precision, which the guardsmen lack. I don't see people giving their guardsmen special weapons, though. I see people using them as bare minimum troops to do nothing except screen their tanks, secure objectives, and provide CP.

 Kharneth wrote:
My buddy lost 3 Plague Marines (including his Champion) because he decided to try to pop my rhino (using smoke) with some overcharged rapid fire shots. He had a lord and everything. Rolled 3 too many 1s and then kept them on the reroll. He will never overcharge his plasma again, he says.

At close range, the Meltagun is definitely superior. Under 12", the plasma gun needs to risk hurting itself and also (somewhat) needs rerollable 1s in order to mitigate (not negate!) the risk. Only after combining this reroll and the risk does the Plasma gun begin to be roughly equal to the meltagun. But if you're within 6" the meltagun is better and comes with no risk whatsoever and doesn't require support (unless you want to count the "thing" that helped the melta to get into range).

On guard, I think plasma is the way to go. The risk is mostly irrelevant because your dudes are cannon fodder and the meltagun needs precision, which the guardsmen lack. I don't see people giving their guardsmen special weapons, though. I see people using them as bare minimum troops to do nothing except screen their tanks, secure objectives, and provide CP.

Under 12 inches plasma is better. In fact, only under 6 is melta better sometimes. In fact, your only really getting one extra wound through on average. Plasma has advanatages though, like having 2 shots, multiple profiles, and the ability to kill 2 guys, or put 4 wounds on 1 target.

2 shots of plasma at a leman Russ. You’ll hit with about 2 shots probably, wound with one, and get 2 wounds through.

Melta, you’ve already a 1/3 chance of missing, then you’ve a 1/2 chance of failing to wound. You then need to roll well and be closer to the damn thing than you can deep strike if you want to out preform plasma (4 dmg is better than 3.5 average).

Martel732 wrote:
Make melta double strength in melta range. This will cause more wounds, and force more saves. As it stands, melta can't force enough saves to be remotely worthwhile.

This is more of a modeling nitpick of mine, but shouldn't Multi-meltas have 2 shots? They have 2 melta "barrels", so in addition to having twice the range for being Heavy, they should have 2 shots.

 Jaxler wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:
My buddy lost 3 Plague Marines (including his Champion) because he decided to try to pop my rhino (using smoke) with some overcharged rapid fire shots. He had a lord and everything. Rolled 3 too many 1s and then kept them on the reroll. He will never overcharge his plasma again, he says.

At close range, the Meltagun is definitely superior. Under 12", the plasma gun needs to risk hurting itself and also (somewhat) needs rerollable 1s in order to mitigate (not negate!) the risk. Only after combining this reroll and the risk does the Plasma gun begin to be roughly equal to the meltagun. But if you're within 6" the meltagun is better and comes with no risk whatsoever and doesn't require support (unless you want to count the "thing" that helped the melta to get into range).

On guard, I think plasma is the way to go. The risk is mostly irrelevant because your dudes are cannon fodder and the meltagun needs precision, which the guardsmen lack. I don't see people giving their guardsmen special weapons, though. I see people using them as bare minimum troops to do nothing except screen their tanks, secure objectives, and provide CP.

Under 12 inches plasma is better. In fact, only under 6 is melta better sometimes. In fact, your only really getting one extra wound through on average. Plasma has advanatages though, like having 2 shots, multiple profiles, and the ability to kill 2 guys, or put 4 wounds on 1 target.

2 shots of plasma at a leman Russ. You’ll hit with about 2 shots probably, wound with one, and get 2 wounds through.

Melta, you’ve already a 1/3 chance of missing, then you’ve a 1/2 chance of failing to wound. You then need to roll well and be closer to the damn thing than you can deep strike if you want to out preform plasma (4 dmg is better than 3.5 average).

Between 12" and 6" the plasma and melta are roughly equal when targeting vehicles/monsters (I'm ignoring infantry completely). Under 6" the meltagun becomes superior.

You're being very unfair with your statistics here. Rounding up for the plasma gun, assuming it'll hit with all its shots, ignoring the probability of rolling 1s, and giving the meltagun an average of 3.5 damage when in fact the average is higher when you get to the best out of 2d6. Let's assume you're BS 4+, like IG. A plasma gun can rapid fire to deal 2-4 s8 hits. 1 will hit and 1 will miss. 66% of that 1 will wound and will result in 1.32 wounds with likely only invulnerable saves. A meltagun will deal 0.5 hits and deal 0.3 wounds with only invulnerable saves. This becomes 1.16 if you only get the d6 damage, but becomes 1.32 if you roll a 4 or 1.66 if you roll a 5 for damage.

If you're targeting something with at least 4 or 5 wounds the melta and plasmagun are pretty similar in output, but the plasmagun comes with risks that result in dedicating a character aura to the unit. The real benefit of the plasma is that it has more opportunities to be effective and it has longer range. If you compare melta to plasma within 6" against a vehicle/monster than the meltagun is superior because it inflicts a bit more damage and requires no support/risk.

RE: "naked" Guard units...dislike them personally...I tend o go full hog on them, Hvy Weapon team, special wepon, 50/50 on a vox caster...Then again I am going with a heavy weapon intense army (17 of them) and I like the grenade launcher and flamers


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another thing, if you get a +1 you are immune to overheating, right? (I have a stratagem for that)

 Kharneth wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:
My buddy lost 3 Plague Marines (including his Champion) because he decided to try to pop my rhino (using smoke) with some overcharged rapid fire shots. He had a lord and everything. Rolled 3 too many 1s and then kept them on the reroll. He will never overcharge his plasma again, he says.

At close range, the Meltagun is definitely superior. Under 12", the plasma gun needs to risk hurting itself and also (somewhat) needs rerollable 1s in order to mitigate (not negate!) the risk. Only after combining this reroll and the risk does the Plasma gun begin to be roughly equal to the meltagun. But if you're within 6" the meltagun is better and comes with no risk whatsoever and doesn't require support (unless you want to count the "thing" that helped the melta to get into range).

On guard, I think plasma is the way to go. The risk is mostly irrelevant because your dudes are cannon fodder and the meltagun needs precision, which the guardsmen lack. I don't see people giving their guardsmen special weapons, though. I see people using them as bare minimum troops to do nothing except screen their tanks, secure objectives, and provide CP.

Under 12 inches plasma is better. In fact, only under 6 is melta better sometimes. In fact, your only really getting one extra wound through on average. Plasma has advanatages though, like having 2 shots, multiple profiles, and the ability to kill 2 guys, or put 4 wounds on 1 target.

2 shots of plasma at a leman Russ. You’ll hit with about 2 shots probably, wound with one, and get 2 wounds through.

Melta, you’ve already a 1/3 chance of missing, then you’ve a 1/2 chance of failing to wound. You then need to roll well and be closer to the damn thing than you can deep strike if you want to out preform plasma (4 dmg is better than 3.5 average).

Between 12" and 6" the plasma and melta are roughly equal when targeting vehicles/monsters (I'm ignoring infantry completely). Under 6" the meltagun becomes superior.

You're being very unfair with your statistics here. Rounding up for the plasma gun, assuming it'll hit with all its shots, ignoring the probability of rolling 1s, and giving the meltagun an average of 3.5 damage when in fact the average is higher when you get to the best out of 2d6. Let's assume you're BS 4+, like IG. A plasma gun can rapid fire to deal 2-4 s8 hits. 1 will hit and 1 will miss. 66% of that 1 will wound and will result in 1.32 wounds with likely only invulnerable saves. A meltagun will deal 0.5 hits and deal 0.3 wounds with only invulnerable saves. This becomes 1.16 if you only get the d6 damage, but becomes 1.32 if you roll a 4 or 1.66 if you roll a 5 for damage.

If you're targeting something with at least 4 or 5 wounds the melta and plasmagun are pretty similar in output, but the plasmagun comes with risks that result in dedicating a character aura to the unit. The real benefit of the plasma is that it has more opportunities to be effective and it has longer range. If you compare melta to plasma within 6" against a vehicle/monster than the meltagun is superior because it inflicts a bit more damage and requires no support/risk.

If you need something to be 6 inches away to do its job and it’s on a shooting unit, odds are it’s bad. You can’t deep strike close enough to use melta where it’s better than plasma, so it’s pretty trash.

Something to consider - one of the things that made Melta useful in older editions was that you could often deep strike such units near to their targets (e.g. via Drop Pods).

If a unit wasn't deep striking, it would probably have been given Plasma or Grav.

As it stands, you simply can't deep strike units into melta range. Hence, there's no longer any way to counteract the short range.


So, what if we removed 'melta range' entirely? Instead, against Vehicles and Monsters, Meltaguns automatically roll 2d6 for damage and pick the highest result (regardless of range).

Now deep strike can actually bring them into optimal range of their targets.

 Jaxler wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:
My buddy lost 3 Plague Marines (including his Champion) because he decided to try to pop my rhino (using smoke) with some overcharged rapid fire shots. He had a lord and everything. Rolled 3 too many 1s and then kept them on the reroll. He will never overcharge his plasma again, he says.

At close range, the Meltagun is definitely superior. Under 12", the plasma gun needs to risk hurting itself and also (somewhat) needs rerollable 1s in order to mitigate (not negate!) the risk. Only after combining this reroll and the risk does the Plasma gun begin to be roughly equal to the meltagun. But if you're within 6" the meltagun is better and comes with no risk whatsoever and doesn't require support (unless you want to count the "thing" that helped the melta to get into range).

On guard, I think plasma is the way to go. The risk is mostly irrelevant because your dudes are cannon fodder and the meltagun needs precision, which the guardsmen lack. I don't see people giving their guardsmen special weapons, though. I see people using them as bare minimum troops to do nothing except screen their tanks, secure objectives, and provide CP.

Under 12 inches plasma is better. In fact, only under 6 is melta better sometimes. In fact, your only really getting one extra wound through on average. Plasma has advanatages though, like having 2 shots, multiple profiles, and the ability to kill 2 guys, or put 4 wounds on 1 target.

2 shots of plasma at a leman Russ. You’ll hit with about 2 shots probably, wound with one, and get 2 wounds through.

Melta, you’ve already a 1/3 chance of missing, then you’ve a 1/2 chance of failing to wound. You then need to roll well and be closer to the damn thing than you can deep strike if you want to out preform plasma (4 dmg is better than 3.5 average).

Between 12" and 6" the plasma and melta are roughly equal when targeting vehicles/monsters (I'm ignoring infantry completely). Under 6" the meltagun becomes superior.

You're being very unfair with your statistics here. Rounding up for the plasma gun, assuming it'll hit with all its shots, ignoring the probability of rolling 1s, and giving the meltagun an average of 3.5 damage when in fact the average is higher when you get to the best out of 2d6. Let's assume you're BS 4+, like IG. A plasma gun can rapid fire to deal 2-4 s8 hits. 1 will hit and 1 will miss. 66% of that 1 will wound and will result in 1.32 wounds with likely only invulnerable saves. A meltagun will deal 0.5 hits and deal 0.3 wounds with only invulnerable saves. This becomes 1.16 if you only get the d6 damage, but becomes 1.32 if you roll a 4 or 1.66 if you roll a 5 for damage.

If you're targeting something with at least 4 or 5 wounds the melta and plasmagun are pretty similar in output, but the plasmagun comes with risks that result in dedicating a character aura to the unit. The real benefit of the plasma is that it has more opportunities to be effective and it has longer range. If you compare melta to plasma within 6" against a vehicle/monster than the meltagun is superior because it inflicts a bit more damage and requires no support/risk.

If you need something to be 6 inches away to do its job and it’s on a shooting unit, odds are it’s bad. You can’t deep strike close enough to use melta where it’s better than plasma, so it’s pretty trash.

I agree. Meltaguns are ineffective because their range is too short and Multimeltas are ineffective because they aren't assault weapons.

None of that negates the fact that meltagun beats the plasmagun at damaging vehicles within 6". You don't want to do improper probability when you're comparing weapons, especially if you already have a preference. A rapid firing overcharged plasma gun on a space marine is going to deal 1.78 damage (assuming no saves) to a t7 foe (with no rerolling) and has a 16% chance to kill itself in the process. A single meltagun on a space marine shooting within 6" is going to deal 1.78 damage (assuming no saves) to a t7 foe (with no rerolling) if it rolls a 3.5 for damage (which is impossible). On a 4, 5, or 6 the meltagun is better and on a 1, 2, or 3 it is worse. 2d6 pick the highest will likely have at least 1 4+.

Plasmagun is certainly the better choice, AND it's cheaper. But it's not better at doing what the meltagun does. It's the outside circumstances that make plasma better. You can't deep strike within 6", but you can within 12". You can't move a vehicle and then disembark with your meltagun.

 vipoid wrote:
Something to consider - one of the things that made Melta useful in older editions was that you could often deep strike such units near to their targets (e.g. via Drop Pods).

If a unit wasn't deep striking, it would probably have been given Plasma or Grav.

As it stands, you simply can't deep strike units into melta range. Hence, there's no longer any way to counteract the short range.


So, what if we removed 'melta range' entirely? Instead, against Vehicles and Monsters, Meltaguns automatically roll 2d6 for damage and pick the highest result (regardless of range).

Now deep strike can actually bring them into optimal range of their targets.

That would only remove one of the last parts of positining in 8th and favour the alpha strike and letality of the game.

I don't disagree Melta needs buffs. But I don't believe thats the way. The doubling your S in melta range of Martel is something I like more.

 Kharneth wrote:
My buddy lost 3 Plague Marines (including his Champion) because he decided to try to pop my rhino (using smoke) with some overcharged rapid fire shots. He had a lord and everything. Rolled 3 too many 1s and then kept them on the reroll. He will never overcharge his plasma again, he says.

Excelent. The more people who put superstition and once in a blue moon events into decision the easier time others have winning.

At close range, the Meltagun is definitely superior. Under 12", the plasma gun needs to risk hurting itself and also (somewhat) needs rerollable 1s in order to mitigate (not negate!) the risk. Only after combining this reroll and the risk does the Plasma gun begin to be roughly equal to the meltagun. But if you're within 6" the meltagun is better and comes with no risk whatsoever and doesn't require support (unless you want to count the "thing" that helped the melta to get into range).

On guard, I think plasma is the way to go. The risk is mostly irrelevant because your dudes are cannon fodder and the meltagun needs precision, which the guardsmen lack. I don't see people giving their guardsmen special weapons, though. I see people using them as bare minimum troops to do nothing except screen their tanks, secure objectives, and provide CP.

It does not roughly equal. It exceeds it as long as we aren't talking about 2+ save vehicles. Not common niche. And rerolls are so common you could say automatic. Meanwhile melta, short of very few units like ravenwing bikers, will never get to 6" if opponent doesn't want to. The 6" range is bigger risk than overheat so your no risk whatsoever is platantly false. Getting within 6" is death sentence orde.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
I don't disagree Melta needs buffs. But I don't believe thats the way. The doubling your S in melta range of Martel is something I like more.

At least then it would have some scenario where it gets more damage than plasma. Albeit you will never really get to that situation but hey at least something.

I don't know, having 2d6 pick the highest damage all the time might be a good solution. For the current cost, at least.
It gives Melta the same effectiveness no matter the range (as long as it is in range), but Plasma will still be more versatile.

The Alpha strike issue is already addressed by the beta rule that you wouldn't be able to drop in turn 1

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Still won't force enough saves. Useless. I don't think there's any change you can make to make it worth its current point cost, except make it ignore invulnerable saves.

Martel732 wrote:
Still won't force enough saves. Useless.

What saves? A Melta's ideal targets would not have a save. AP -4 effectively ignores 3+ armour. But 2 shot Multi-meltas sound like a great idea.
RE: invulnerable saves are call as such for a reason and most are only 5+, or on units with no really armour save, so Autocannons are better anyway.

That's one thing I like about 8th, most weapons seem to have a purpose. Plasma just happens to be the only one that is multi-purpose.

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Most melta targets have invulns now. Only the crappy Imperials are left out in the cold.

Thats the reason I hate when people say "Oh, this super heavy/vehicle isn't thougt enough. Give him a invul!"

No. The game needs less invulnerable saves, no more.

Well, IK codex just dropped. That's not the way its going.

tneva82 wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:
My buddy lost 3 Plague Marines (including his Champion) because he decided to try to pop my rhino (using smoke) with some overcharged rapid fire shots. He had a lord and everything. Rolled 3 too many 1s and then kept them on the reroll. He will never overcharge his plasma again, he says.

Excelent. The more people who put superstition and once in a blue moon events into decision the easier time others have winning.

At close range, the Meltagun is definitely superior. Under 12", the plasma gun needs to risk hurting itself and also (somewhat) needs rerollable 1s in order to mitigate (not negate!) the risk. Only after combining this reroll and the risk does the Plasma gun begin to be roughly equal to the meltagun. But if you're within 6" the meltagun is better and comes with no risk whatsoever and doesn't require support (unless you want to count the "thing" that helped the melta to get into range).

On guard, I think plasma is the way to go. The risk is mostly irrelevant because your dudes are cannon fodder and the meltagun needs precision, which the guardsmen lack. I don't see people giving their guardsmen special weapons, though. I see people using them as bare minimum troops to do nothing except screen their tanks, secure objectives, and provide CP.

It does not roughly equal. It exceeds it as long as we aren't talking about 2+ save vehicles. Not common niche. And rerolls are so common you could say automatic. Meanwhile melta, short of very few units like ravenwing bikers, will never get to 6" if opponent doesn't want to. The 6" range is bigger risk than overheat so your no risk whatsoever is platantly false. Getting within 6" is death sentence orde.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
I don't disagree Melta needs buffs. But I don't believe thats the way. The doubling your S in melta range of Martel is something I like more.

At least then it would have some scenario where it gets more damage than plasma. Albeit you will never really get to that situation but hey at least something.

I already did the math and posted it. Meltaguns are superior against vehicles (regardless of armor) when they are within 6".

Rerolls are far from automatic. It's easy to say that they're automatic when you play an army that can take a unit of 4 plasma guns, stick them next to a character and call it a day. It's very different when you're looking at a force where you want to sprinkle some special weapons here and there. When you have 4 independent units that all want a single special weapon, you're not going to grab 4 plasma guns and run around overcharging everything because you have free rerolling 1s.

I keep hearing Plasma guns are better, but what's actually being said is plasma guns with character support are better and we're ignoring the fact that we'll still lose guys. Every time I've had an enemy shoot me with their 4 plasma guns rerolling 1s with their character one of them dies. That's with the rerolls and no modifiers. The meltagun will never die unless your opponent chooses to kill it.

Plasma guns are better, I'm not denying that, but they do not out-damage plasma guns when they are within 6" of a vehicle. If you're getting rerolls on 1s with your plasma guns than surely the meltaguns deserve the same buff. You can't claim that plasma guns are more worth their points and then neglect to factor in the 40-100 points it costs for the rerolls.

Only marines care about rerolls on plasma.

 Galas wrote:
Thats the reason I hate when people say "Oh, this super heavy/vehicle isn't thougt enough. Give him a invul!"

No. The game needs less invulnerable sabes, no more.

So much this.

Martel732 wrote:
Well, IK codex just dropped. That's not the way its going.

GW should start to give super heavies more wounds, better saves and better T. But when they have capped themselves at T8, saves for superheaveis at 3+, and wounds at 24-28 (Ignoring the Stompa) then of course they can only make things more survivable with invulnerable saves.

Superheaveis with T9 and T10 would make a Melta that doubles his S in melta range much more usefull, for example. And more vehicles with 2+ would make the -4P of the melta relevant.

That's all very true. But for what currently exists in the game, the pricing on melta is insane.

Oh yeah, I agree with that.

And I agree too with Galef. The fact that it has two barrels, its called "multi"-melta, and it only shoots 1 proyectile its a failure at a fundamental level.

Multimelta was a blast back in the day.

Martel732 wrote:
Multimelta was a blast back in the day.

So you are saying it really should be D3 shots? I agree.

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Yeah, it should probably have D3 shots especially at is current cost.

When was the multimelta a blast weapon? I don't remember that from any of the editions I've played.

For the multimelta rationale, this is my thought:

Melta clearly is more powerful when you're closer to your target. I really appreciated how the Space Marine video game used meltaguns like shotguns with a spread that made it so they dealt more damage from closer distances. With this rationale, the multimelta does not shoot twice because that's not the function of the additional barrel. The multimelta instead has increased range because the additional barrel is amplifying the heat that is shot out. More heat will allow it to travel a further distance. It's still one, brief explosion of intense heat traveling over a short distance, but with the added barrel and added heat, the effect is carried further before it dissipates.

Otherwise, you'd be talking about twin meltaguns which would have 2 shots but would be the same range as the regular meltagun.