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I think Melta is overlooked at the moment. Overcharged plasma has taken its glory but if you ONLY take plasma you are making yourself weak vs all the -1 to hit shenanigans.

I'm making a scions battalion with 4 plasma, 2 melta and 4 hot shots. I feel like the meltaguns can contribute well if pointed at the right kind of target... something with lots of wounds, no invulnerable and a 3+ save. Leman Russes for example.

Meltaguns are anti-imperium. Which makes no sense given that its the imperium fielding them.

Melta is not overlooked. It's not used b/c it has crappy return.

Martel732 wrote:
Meltaguns are anti-imperium. Which makes no sense given that its the imperium fielding them.

I agree with you in execution, but thematically it does make sense. Imperials hate those ex-Imperials the most after all.

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Meltaguns are anti-imperium. Which makes no sense given that its the imperium fielding them.

I agree with you in execution, but thematically it does make sense. Imperials hate those ex-Imperials the most after all.

Aren't they also the second most common enemy as well?

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Meltaguns are anti-imperium. Which makes no sense given that its the imperium fielding them.

I agree with you in execution, but thematically it does make sense. Imperials hate those ex-Imperials the most after all.

I don't care about the thematics. Being hamstrung vs Xenos is dumb from a game standpoint.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Meltaguns are anti-imperium. Which makes no sense given that its the imperium fielding them.

I agree with you in execution, but thematically it does make sense. Imperials hate those ex-Imperials the most after all.

Aren't they also the second most common enemy as well?

Not in practice.

 Silentz wrote:
I feel like the meltaguns can contribute well if pointed at the right kind of target... something with lots of wounds, no invulnerable and a 3+ save. Leman Russes for example.

The problem is that their advantage against even that perfect target at half range is fairly small: an extra 0.5 average damage and a -1 save modifier. In exchange for that small benefit you get a gun that is much weaker against everything else, and weaker against the ideal target if you deep strike (and you are deep striking with storm troopers). This is something where you just have to do the math instead of trying to trust your intuition that melta is supposed to be good against vehicles.

Plasma needs to cost more and go down in strength.
Melta probably needs to cost less but it's stats aren't realy the problem, it's costed like it's 7th edition.
Flamers also need some work but thats off topic.

Infantry spam sucks, giving 50 point units the ability to one shot 200 point vehicals is the definition of imbalance.

It just makes having an invulnerable saves mandatory for playability.

If you want to up the damage avarage change it from d6 to 2d3 damage.
and maybe +1 to wound at half range

Ice_can wrote:
Infantry spam sucks, giving 50 point units the ability to one shot 200 point vehicals is the definition of imbalance.

No, it's fine. Those 50-point units can only one-shot a vehicle with extreme luck and from suicidally close range. It's entirely fair that if you can work hard and set up the perfect conditions for an anti-tank unit to attack a tank the result is a dead tank.

 lolman1c wrote:
I like the melta gun. It's next to useless but it looks cool in my army!

Yes, I too, am very fond of oversized hair dryer of doom.

 Peregrine wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Infantry spam sucks, giving 50 point units the ability to one shot 200 point vehicals is the definition of imbalance.

No, it's fine. Those 50-point units can only one-shot a vehicle with extreme luck and from suicidally close range. It's entirely fair that if you can work hard and set up the perfect conditions for an anti-tank unit to attack a tank the result is a dead tank.

Not exactly a challange when you can rush forward and blow up the transport to get to survive the explosion and oh free shooting. At 1.5 ich

Admittedly the above is exploiting GW pants plasma rules.

But give SM bikers the ability to delete a tank per turn with each melta gun and ravenwing bikers would be insane.

The rwal solution is to leave them as maxing out at 6 wounds but take the opportunity cost into consideration when pointing melta. In infantry it's probably 5points range on bikes and vehicals 15 point range. Points can be unit specific, weapon stats can't.

So what I am hearing, is that my gut instinct is right....

Martel732 wrote:
Meltaguns are anti-imperium. Which makes no sense given that its the imperium fielding them.

Melta is not overlooked. It's not used b/c it has crappy return.

Why are they anti Imperium?

But another thing to recall is that historically, most of what the Imperium fights is Orks and itself.

Because Imperial targets are the only ones where they are getting their full -4 AP. Everyone else has invulns out the ass.

Martel732 wrote:
Because Imperial targets are the only ones where they are getting their full -4 AP. Everyone else has invulns out the ass.

Or Quantum Shielding. That's a harsh one to face...

Imperium, Chaos (Space marines, not demons), Tau and Orks. All of those are good targets for melta. Even Tyranids and their big bugs.

The only ones that have invulnerables everywhere are those pesky Eldars, Dark Eldars, Imperial Knights ,Demons and Necrons with their strange rules.

Of course, if your meta is 90% of those in the second list, Melta will be useless. But thats the same as if every opponent you are facing are orks, tyranids, and tau with Hordes. All your anti tank won't be worth a damm.

Melta doesn't even do that impressive of an amount of damage even when it works. A lascannon will have done much more damage due to many more shot opportunities.

Melta sucks vs CSM. They have invulns all over the place. Esp those plague crawlers.

Do you think drop Meltagun cost by 5 points and automatically maximize the damage at half range (instead of roll 2d6, pick best) would be enough?

I like doubling is strength. more 2d6 pick the highest is good enough for damage output. The problem is wounding the target.

How many other weapons double the strength on a given condition? I am afraid of the crazy idea the design team could have setting this precedent (if it IS a precedent, correct me if I am wrong).

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
How many other weapons double the strength on a given condition? I am afraid of the crazy idea the design team could have setting this precedent (if it IS a precedent, correct me if I am wrong).

Many meele weapons do it. Shooting ones, I don't know. But it is not like theres any other weapon with something similar to the melta rule.

Damn. Besides standard Hot shots, I only have Melta and Volley Scions since I don't care for the Plasma Scion pose and that's the only Plasma gun in the kit...

I kind of feel like that's a problem with my guard. None of the other special weapons feel great to use compared to Plasma.

 Kelligula wrote:
Damn. Besides standard Hot shots, I only have Melta and Volley Scions since I don't care for the Plasma Scion pose and that's the only Plasma gun in the kit...

I kind of feel like that's a problem with my guard. None of the other special weapons feel great to use compared to Plasma.

It's more a problem with plasma being way better than it should be for its points.

Plasma is good, ok... but to be honest, Grav, Flamers and Melta suck. If you nerf plasma people won't start using the other weapons.

 Galas wrote:
Plasma is good, ok... but to be honest, Grav, Flamers and Melta suck. If you nerf plasma people won't start using the other weapons.

Sure they will. Those weapons are still better than a basic lasgun/bolter/whatever that the model would otherwise be armed with, so if plasma is no longer a good choice people will have to take those other weapons.

No we don't.

Swap the points of plasma and melta around and people might actually have a decision to make right now it's so imbalanced other options may aswell not exsist.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Plasma is good, ok... but to be honest, Grav, Flamers and Melta suck. If you nerf plasma people won't start using the other weapons.

Sure they will. Those weapons are still better than a basic lasgun/bolter/whatever that the model would otherwise be armed with, so if plasma is no longer a good choice people will have to take those other weapons.

No, because 3 Storm Bolters or Combi-Bolters is better than the Flamer. Unless you're seriously suggesting that those weapons be bumped up in price, of course.

And Grav Guns are bad whereas Grav Cannons are not. The weapon is bad, not the rules.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
No, because 3 Storm Bolters or Combi-Bolters is better than the Flamer. Unless you're seriously suggesting that those weapons be bumped up in price, of course.

But that's not a valid comparison. You can't take 3 storm bolters vs. 1 flamer because you're ignoring the cost of the carrier and limits on how many models can take upgrade weapons. If I have an IG infantry squad I can take one special weapon and one heavy weapon. If I can't take a plasma gun anymore I'm still going to take a melta/flamer/whatever because any special weapon is better than the lasgun it replaces.

Ice_can wrote:
Swap the points of plasma and melta around and people might actually have a decision to make right now it's so imbalanced other options may aswell not exsist.

See this is weird. Put aside your experience and look at the statline.

Rapid Fire 1 - S7, AP-3 D1 or S8 AP-3 D2 but your model can die
or
Assault 1 - S8 AP-4 Dd6, roll twice pick the best dmg

Doesnt feel like the 2nd option should be cheaper than the first.

24" on the plasma is great tho.

 Silentz wrote:
Put aside your experience and look at the statline.

Except when you do that and do the math on the stat line plasma wins 95% of the time and melta only has a small advantage in the rare situations where it comes out ahead at all. Put aside your intuition about what things should do and look at the math, because the math is all that matters. Melta is a much less effective weapon and should be cheaper.