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2nd ed it had a blast marker, which was devastating vs vehicles.

I'd give it 2d6 pick highest at all ranges, and straight 2d6 damage in half range. That would be a scary gun, but still one that asks a lot of positioning to make it work to its full potential.

Damage mods aren't the fix. The current implementation has a huge chance to doing nothing at all, which is the problem.

Martel732 wrote:
2nd ed it had a blast marker, which was devastating vs vehicles.

Oh wow. I started in 4th.

Martel732 wrote:
Damage mods aren't the fix. The current implementation has a huge chance to doing nothing at all, which is the problem.

Same as a Lascannon.

Martel732 wrote:
2nd ed it had a blast marker, which was devastating vs everything.

Fixed. Multimelta shooting from rhino's top door was ... a blast

The Legend of Melta was born somewhere in the 3rd to 7th edition days when it had a pretty decent chance of a one-shot kill inside melta range. Now I am a big fan of 8th but the change to the toughness/wounds system away from the AP/damage chart approach means that it's really difficult to recreate those types of weapons. Melta guns are still useful but they will do a max of 6 wounds in a game where most vehicle targets have 10 or more wounds.

This means a unit like a squad of Fire Dragons that could reliably kill a vehicle in one volley in older editions (and was often overkill because it could only fire at one target) can still kill a vehicle pretty handily in this edition because they're shooting 5 of the things at one target, typically.

Other units like a Blood Angels assault squad or a marine bike squad where you could usually only take 2 meltas could still kill vehicles alright in those older editions but have a much harder time in 8th because they just do not generate enough wounds to kill a big target.

Unfortunately the cost of the various melta weapons does not seem to have been adjusted to reflect this change.

Potential fix then:
Melta = Assault 1, or Assault D3 at half range
Multi-melta = Heavy D3, or Heavy D6 (or 2D3) at half range

Always D6 damage regardless of range (cuz, c'mon you are get moar dakka to reflect that extra damage).
So it will basically work like Rapidfire, but keep the properties of Assault and Heavy respectively

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I will say that I have had really good luck with my Chaos Bikers with 2 Melta Guns and a Combi Melta.

But this has been the exception rather than the rule for my experiences with Melta. Chaos Bikers have a number of advantages that help them use Melta effectively. Mainly what it comes down is they have incredible options for force multipliers in their codex. Prescience helps them land their shots, Warp Time and a huge movement stat helps them get into that 6 inch range. In terms of Stratagems, Veterans of the Long War makes their Melta Guns more reliable against high toughness targets, and also makes the combi-bolters on the bikes a credible threat to t7 and below, and of course they can mark Slaanesh which opens up the Endless Cacophony Strategem if they need a second shooting phase to bring something down.

I prefer the melta guns on the bikes to plasma because I don't have to worry about overheating on 1s against negative to hit modifiers, and their blistering speed gives them an easier time sliding into that 6 inch range. The Combi Bolters on the bikes are nice vs Infantry even if the melta guns do not have a good target anyway. And they can split fire. Bikes are a very versatile and good unit.

that said, Raptors thoroughly let me down with Melta Guns, and have since switched to Plasma. Not being able to Deep Strike into Melta's optimal range makes Overcharged Plasma stronger and more reliable with 4 damage if both Plasma bursts land on target. Still, if there is a lot of Craftworld Eldar in your meta, Melta is much stronger. Wave Serpents make a mockery of Plasma, god help you if they have vectored engines and use lightning reflexes. Suddenly those overcharged Plasma Guns are overheating on 1, 2 and 3. And just to pour salt on the wound, Serpent Shields reduce the damage of your Overcharged Plasma to a measley 1 damage. Which means you are relegated to firing non overcharged plasma at that Serpent. A Melta has no danger of killing its user, and if its in melta range you've got 2d6 take the highest to help circumvent that -1 damage from Serpent Shield.

 Galef wrote:
Potential fix then:
Melta = Assault 1, or Assault D3 at half range
Multi-melta = Heavy D3, or Heavy D6 (or 2D3) at half range

Always D6 damage regardless of range (cuz, c'mon you are get moar dakka to reflect that extra damage).
So it will basically work like Rapidfire, but keep the properties of Assault and Heavy respectively

-

My sisters would be happy to see this.

I will say that I have one massive concern with all this melta sucks and must be brought into line with plasma.

8th edition already favours cheap bodies, making more and more weapons better against multi wound models, just adds to the push to bring the biggest number of the cheapest model and some charictors.

I get the melta doesn't fit its supposed niche, but given how unwilling GW are to make big scary things properly hard to kill giving cheap infantry more ways to kill 300-400 point models with 50point units feels like the last nail in the coffin for 8th edition as it becomes hoard edition.

I like the melta gun. It's next to useless but it looks cool in my army!

Honestly, an easy way to fix plasma is have that balance of risk vs reward. On a natural 1 the user has to make an armour save, no rerolls for both.

Probably a lazy fix but it was what we used to do.

Easy fix: make melta double strength within half range, on top of any increased damage. The problem with melta is that 50% chance to fail to wound, make it more reliable at delivering that 2D6 damage and it has much more of a purpose compared to plasma.

Got no problem with meltas.
I'd be happy to take them in equal measure.
Every special weapon has its own special job. So limiting yourself to 1 choice is just poor planning and poor list building.

ValentineGames wrote:
Every special weapon has its own special job.

Except they really don't. Plasma is the clear winner in most situations, and melta has a very small advantage in a small number of situations. The higher damage is offset by the lower rate of fire, meaning you need to get within 6" to have any advantage and even there the advantage is small. Essentially you're paying extra points to avoid losing models to rolling 1s (assuming you have no buffs to remove that problem, which is a very generous assumption), but since you have to get so close to your target you're probably losing them next turn anyway. So when you have a choice between a weapon that is better almost all of the time vs. a weapon that occasionally has a slight advantage but mostly just sucks you always take plasma and ignore the other options.

In addition to rebalancing melta, plasma probably also needs to be looked at. Making melta better might not help that much since plasma's biggest strength is that it's a general-purpose weapon that's too good at all of the things it tries to do. Reducing the Strength or AP of plasma might be a good start. S7 is incredibly powerful compared to S6 in 8th edition. Plasma also demonstrates one of the core issues with 8th edition at the moment, which is the prevalence of re-rolls. Reduce those and overheating is actually a drawback.

I do think plasma is too good, and meltaguns are pretty expensive (could use a couple point drop). Even 15 points instead of 17 (which is too close to 20 for a lascannon/brightlance which is 3x/4x the range and similar damage)

My main beef is the slaughter of the Multimelta....while I hate Heavy D3 normally, the Multi-Melta should be Heavy D3 to represent the fact that historically it was a short range blast version of the lascannon (similar damage back in the day). It was half or less of the range, but gave you a template. I'd even be fine with Multmeltas being shorter range, but give them a vague multi-hit opportunity.

 Galef wrote:
Potential fix then:
Melta = Assault 1, or Assault D3 at half range
Multi-melta = Heavy D3, or Heavy D6 (or 2D3) at half range

Really like this idea, as it is a decent buff that makes that half range nastier and also helps with the invulnerable save problem.

The other option is to make it ignore invuln saves and cause D3+3 damage. That's the only way it's worthwhile with a low RoF.

 Peregrine wrote:

ValentineGames wrote:
Every special weapon has its own special job.

and melta has a very small advantage in a small number of situations

Ah...well I have come to learn while on this forum that the tiniest of advantages is actually blown out of all proportion and makes whatever it is the greatest choice in the entire world.

So by DakkaDakka logic...the Melta gun is the single greatest weapon in the game because of that.
Awesome!

Martel732 wrote:
The other option is to make it ignore invuln saves and cause D3+3 damage. That's the only way it's worthwhile with a low RoF.

I don't think it should ignore Invul entirely. Maybe it gives a -1 penalty to Invul and at half range a -2 Penalty?

It needs to be ignore because drukhari and knights exist. Otherwise, i'll go back to high rof guns.

Martel732 wrote:
It needs to be ignore because drukhari and knights exist. Otherwise, i'll go back to high rof guns.

Only Mortal Wounds should ignore Invuls. I don't think Melta should do MWs, unless it is on a to-wound roll of 6 (maybe 5+ against Vehicles) or something like that

I still hold that they just need a Rapidfire-like mechanic that gives them more shots at half range (instead of more damage), but still keeps the Assault/Heavy type

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Nah, it doesn't need more shots. Those shots just need to not suck.

I'm content with the Multi-Melta having D3 shots akin to small blasts though.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Nah, it doesn't need more shots. Those shots just need to not suck.

Expensive single shot weapons will always "suck" no matter how powerful they are because you only get 1 chance to hit, 1 chance to wound and 1 change to get past the enemy save.
If Meltas are supposed to do more damage up close, the best way to do this is to give them more chances to succeed, rather than just give them a bigger pay-off in the limited times they do succeed.

Or, make them so cheap you can spam them over Plasma.

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I disagree. They shouldn't have multiple shots, because that is a big part about what distinguishes them mechanically.

I think I better way to do it would be to allow re-rolls to wound in half range, on top of making damage more consistent at all ranges.

They should also be brought down to Plasma cost.

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It needs to be ignore because drukhari and knights exist. Otherwise, i'll go back to high rof guns.

Only Mortal Wounds should ignore Invuls. I don't think Melta should do MWs, unless it is on a to-wound roll of 6 (maybe 5+ against Vehicles) or something like that

I still hold that they just need a Rapidfire-like mechanic that gives them more shots at half range (instead of more damage), but still keeps the Assault/Heavy type

-

Melta wounds would not spill over like mortal wounds, so the mechanic would be distinct. I think ignoring invulns would be a great niche for melta. It would still suck vs hordes.

A lot of this is more of a 'plasma needs to be addressed' than meltas in particular. Either by points for plasma weapons going up, or plasma getting a bump in strength. Plasma being S6 base / S7 overcharged would definitely swing it towards its proper role as an anti-infantry weapon, leaving Meltas and Lascannons with a better anti-vehicle slot.

Still doesn't make melta weapons great, but it does mean they're not completely overshadowed in their role. Really Plasma being such an everything killer has been a big problem for a while in this game - having it reduced to only doing 1 damage on either profile might be the best solution and promote more of a weapons mix.

Means Primaris are even more screwed but we know they need more anti-tank options.

Nerfing plasma won't make me take more melta. I just won't take either. Melta sucks independent of anything else existing in the game.

Martel732 wrote:
Nerfing plasma won't make me take more melta. I just won't take either. Melta sucks independent of anything else existing in the game.

People often forget that hitting one thing doesn't make you take the other thing.