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Made in us
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Keeper of the Space Fleet Flame






Arlington, va

So this came up in my ongoing fanfic and it is one of those thing that's bugged me for a long time, why are marines riding around in Rhinos?

They're less well armored and armed than Chimeras, only carry 10 men, and generally don't seem worth hauling halfway around the galaxy to serve as a stable for the Emperor's elite. Plus since marines have drop pods and fliers why are they grinding through the mud at all, shouldn't they be an exclusively airborne army?

The real reason of course is they were the first plastic vehicle kit and have remained more or less the same over 30 years even while GW has rolled out bigger better kits. But that's not a good in universe explanation.

I've always been a fan of Marvel Comic's No Prize, a prize fans could win, not for pointing out errors but for coming up with a clever handwave to show there never was an error at all.

So...

Space Bradleys - Rhinos are light and poorly armored because they need to be transported by Thunderhawks (which function as Space C-130s+Space B-52s). The lack of firepower is easily explained by the fact the the ten marine on board are the firepower,the Rhino is just a taxi to get them there. Similarly the variants like the Predator, Vindicator etc are still light enough for air dropping while the Leman Russ etc are not.


(Props to Ironhands.com for the image and the scratch build)

Essential - The humble Rhino may play essential roles that its game stats do not reflect. For example Marines are logistically demanding. Sure you can drop a Marine naked on a planet and he'd be able to survive and fight using whatever local resources are available. But if want them at peak effectiveness in full armor you need to feed them their drugs, battlefield data, power, parts and everything else. I imagine Marines riding in a Rhino standing silently at attention, cables and tethers plugged into their armor feeding them everything from orbital images to drugs and medication, playing sacred hymns in their ears, to running simulations of the coming battle. All the while servo skulls, mechanical arms and those small robed servants we see in art scurry around their feet tending the armor, checking ammo levels etc. It would be tight quarters but this is an APC not a luxury limo.





Replaceable - Canonically Rhinos are a simple design that can be made on almost any Imperial world. So Marines can acquire Rhinos locally to replace battlefield loses. This is of course the opposite of the 'Essential' point but they can both work, just imagine there's a continuum, from bare metal boxes hastily painted in Chapter colors, to revered relic rhinos that can serve as a Marine's home from home. Game-wise it would make no difference just fluff and modeling.

Drivers - Who drives the Rhino has always been a tricky question (along with where does he fit). With only 1000 marines can you spare 10% of these superhumans to serve as bus drivers? My head canon is failed aspirants and crippled marines drive it (which is why you sometimes see the driver called a Brother in fiction or poking out of a hatch) but they are not full Battle Brothers and don't count towards the 1000. They're generally wired in but are not lobotomized like servitors. Some might be mostly human, others little more than a brain and spine in a bottle. Other Rhinos might be driven by serfs or ordinary brothers but the ones that go into battle will have near-Marine drivers.

What about the Space Hueys? - The introduction of the Storm Raven creates a problem since marines now have a flying tank with far better weapons than the Rhino or even the Razorback and Predator. (It's also very silly looking but that's another argument). Probably the best way to explain why Rhinos are still around is scarcity. Storm Ravens are much harder to build and maintain and if one is lost may take a decade or more to be replaced.
Plus they look stupid.



Hobbled - Space Marines were deliberately hobbled after the Heresy, capped at 1000 Brothers etc. Saddling them with Rhinos may be part of that.

Tradition - Similarly Marine doctrines were laid down at the end of the Heresy a different time. Fliers and heavier armor may have been in critically short supply, and once the Rhino (and variants) were codified it was hard to change things.

So that's my little list, personally the Bradley theory is my favorite. The need to airlift tanks is why the US has an aluminum APC and it would make sense for the Imperium.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/05 09:22:09


 
   
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Rampaging Chaos Russ Driver





You want an honest answer.
Abundance, Maintenance and Reliability

nearly all imperial armies technically use the Rhino.
Even the Arbites use it.
The Chimera is more difficult to maintain, therefore a bigger manpowerpool of engineers is required, contrary to the Rhino which is portrayed as extremely forgiving.
There is one thing that space marine chapters lack, and that is manpower, well specialist manpower, since Techmarines are relatively rare.
Also often times a Chapter has no homeworld and relies on it's barges for transportation, therefore equipment that is easy to fix and "good enough" takes precedence.
   
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Norwich

Reliability and adaptability is the mainstay of the rhino, it does exactly what it’s meant to do and that is deliver troops to where they are needed, the main firepower of marines is in there infantry (tabletop doesn’t show this well).

Also when you consider the original chassis was designed as a standard template to be adapted to anything from a farm vehicle to a tank, it’s pretty impressive.

   
Made in ca
Chaplain with Hate to Spare





the Rhino and Chimera aren't really things that can be compared, the Rhino is an APC, the Chimeria is an IFV, differant tools for differant jobs. The rhino is a cheap reliable platform to haul troops into the field with min imal cost and fuss, the Chimeria meanwhile is intended as a mobile fireplatform. the Chimeria is better compared to the Razorback.

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Decrepit Dakkanaut






 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Plus since marines have drop pods and fliers why are they grinding through the mud at all, shouldn't they be an exclusively airborne army?


Two reasons:

1) Airborne is great, until your enemy puts up a modern integrated air defense network and SAM batteries shoot down all of your aircraft before they get anywhere near their targets. Space marines don't have the sheer numbers of the IG/Navy and can't fight a war of attrition to get a strike through, even a single pod being shot down would be a huge blow to a chapter. The Rhino allows a marine force to land over the horizon and move in on the ground, maintaining relevance even when the target has AA defenses.

2) Airborne forces struggle with endurance in combat. Pods are a one-shot weapon, and transport aircraft can't stay with a squad for long before they run out of fuel. A Rhino can provide mobility out of combat and haul around extra ammunition, repair kits, etc, to keep a squad fighting for a much longer time.

This focus on out-of-combat roles is why the Rhino is so basic. It doesn't need guns or heavy armor or anything like that, adding them would just reduce its ability to perform its main tasks. See the Razorback as an example, it carries a support weapon for the squad but it's still poorly armored compared to a real tank and sacrifices considerable transport capacity to do it. This makes it a compromise design that is not effective at either role (and only good on the tabletop because GW screwed up the point costs).

What about the Space Hueys? - The introduction of the Storm Raven creates a problem since marines now have a flying tank with far better weapons than the Rhino or even the Razorback and Predator. (It's also very silly looking but that's another argument). Probably the best way to explain why Rhinos are still around is scarcity. Storm Ravens are much harder to build and maintain and if one is lost may take a decade or more to be replaced.
Plus they look stupid.


IMO the best answer to the newer space marine aircraft is that it's an attempt to avoid a civil war. Marines want aircraft of their own, the Imperium doesn't want any faction to be independent, the compromise is to give the space marines some terrible aircraft (while hyping them up as sacred ancient designs) so they'll STFU and go away. Fluff-wise it has paper armor like other aircraft, and its weapons probably suffer from limited ammunition supply like real-world gunships. Out of universe the answer is that GW never should have made these models in the first place, and it's best to consider them non-canon.

And of course the flyers have the problems mentioned above. A Storm Raven sounds great until you realize it has no ability to hide while it's flying high above the ground and a flight of Barracudas is inbound on an intercept course. At best your "tank" had to run away and leave the infantry without support, and the most likely outcome is that the Storm Raven is shot down and a whole squad of marines (plus a priceless relic of the chapter if it's carrying a dreadnought) is now dead.

Hobbled - Space Marines were deliberately hobbled after the Heresy, capped at 1000 Brothers etc. Saddling them with Rhinos may be part of that.


This is probably part of it too. Rhinos aren't bad at their job, so it's not like they're being crippled with a trash unit, but they don't get to have units that are better at different roles. Space marines have to have transport vehicles, but they don't have to have tanks that can go up against a LRBT squadron and expect to win. The Rhino fills the required transport role without creating the danger of a space marine chapter winning a tank battle without support from IG allies.

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Also something to consider is that rhino's aren't marines primary ways of getting around. Thunderhawks and drop pods are. And in HH period stormbirds(which were favoured over cruder thunderhawks)

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The bit about the ubiquity of the Rhino is something GW should pick up. Right now Marines and Sisters are the only ones who can use it, maybe Inquisition but they don't have any sort of codex.

Putting it in the IG book would be an interesting add, if the points were low enough.

 
   
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Rampaging Chaos Russ Driver





 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
The bit about the ubiquity of the Rhino is something GW should pick up. Right now Marines and Sisters are the only ones who can use it, maybe Inquisition but they don't have any sort of codex.

Putting it in the IG book would be an interesting add, if the points were low enough.


Well it certainly would need a drop in the price department to around 40 ish? Also what about the diverse variants, for Guard i would love one with bs 4+ and a Heavy stubber instead of a stormbolter
   
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 Peregrine wrote:

IMO the best answer to the newer space marine aircraft is that it's an attempt to avoid a civil war. Marines want aircraft of their own, the Imperium doesn't want any faction to be independent, the compromise is to give the space marines some terrible aircraft (while hyping them up as sacred ancient designs) so they'll STFU and go away.


Legions were split in to autonomous chapters to make treason easier to deal with, there were no restrictions on equipment or vehicles. Space Marine fleets are very strong, very capable in their own right compared to the Imperial Navy.

Also, SOP is that Marines from the reserve companies operate the vehicles.
   
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 Ginsu33 wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:

IMO the best answer to the newer space marine aircraft is that it's an attempt to avoid a civil war. Marines want aircraft of their own, the Imperium doesn't want any faction to be independent, the compromise is to give the space marines some terrible aircraft (while hyping them up as sacred ancient designs) so they'll STFU and go away.


Legions were split in to autonomous chapters to make treason easier to deal with, there were no restrictions on equipment or vehicles. Space Marine fleets are very strong, very capable in their own right compared to the Imperial Navy.

Also, SOP is that Marines from the reserve companies operate the vehicles.


If it's Marines driving then why can't the driver get out? Surely another 700lb dude in power armor would be more useful than a guy running the tape deck while he waits for his buddies to come back.

 
   
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Someone needs to operate the one or 2 storm bolters on the roof
   
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If it's Marines driving then why can't the driver get out? Surely another 700lb dude in power armor would be more useful than a guy running the tape deck while he waits for his buddies to come back.


It has to be not just a marine but a regular infantry member of a tactical squad who happens to also drive a rhino on the occasions they use armored vehicles instead of aircraft. It’s because all they are used for is marine delivery systems.

You answered your own question. It would be pointless to have an armored company of marines in tanks or a navy inflatables in strike cruisers. They might be a little bit better trained and a bit higher tech than the guard armored companies and navy squadrons, but not the same way a marine is better than a guardsman or storm trooper. So for marines, a ship or tank is just an infantry tool the same way a hand held lascannon is, or a drop pod. You could have a tactical squad in some kind of predicament, pinned down and trying to rush some well defended position, and Lars with the lascannon just can’t get it done. Well, Jim from tactical squad 4 happens to have a lascannon that can shoot while moving 55km/h and makes him immune to shoota fire. It has to be infantry all the time, to the extent that the armor and space ships are integrated right into the infantry squads. It’s not enough to be a specialist in supporting marines, the crew have to be specialist knowing marines, and as infantry marines they have special equipment. Some have meltabombs, some have an suspected, some have a battery of planetary bombardment cannons.

What’s more yes the 700 lb guy inside probably does get out and fight a fair amount, because it’s not like they’re in a tank company where if something goes wrong there are a wall of 20 other tanks around to keep up the cavalry charge and sweep past, or a stable of support vehicles and personnel to come save the crew and recover the tank. It’s literally a few inches of duralloy between the crew and the battle with no rear area depot to retire to.

They are canonically marines operating the vehicles, members of tactical squads according to 2e codex: ultramarines and all the subsequent sources that support same are kind of window dressing. The rules for Space Marine the original 6mm titanicus game also gave them nine normal squads, one command squad, and ten rhinos, just the same amount as the missing ten tactical marines.
   
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 Ginsu33 wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:

IMO the best answer to the newer space marine aircraft is that it's an attempt to avoid a civil war. Marines want aircraft of their own, the Imperium doesn't want any faction to be independent, the compromise is to give the space marines some terrible aircraft (while hyping them up as sacred ancient designs) so they'll STFU and go away.


Legions were split in to autonomous chapters to make treason easier to deal with, there were no restrictions on equipment or vehicles. Space Marine fleets are very strong, very capable in their own right compared to the Imperial Navy.

Also, SOP is that Marines from the reserve companies operate the vehicles.

There are some restrictions, mostly on spaceships and heavier equipment. During the GC SM had all ship types, now they are no longer supposed to have ships specialized in void combat, with BFG having a few SM frigate entries were it is noted that the Imperial Navy complains that the design is infringing on their role. Of course we have the special 'cool' exceptions like the Space Wolves who can somehow operate an entire GC level battlefleet crewed by a chapter only slightly larger than the rule with low pop feral world serfs.

Also SM fleets may be strong, but pound for pound Imperial Navy ships are much stronger as they were designed with void combat in mind. Although because its a game, this isn't always shown very well.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/07/06 07:19:23


Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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the space wolf fleet is stupid big for a modern day chapter but is hardly GC sized.

That said I agree it's rediculas. I can't see how they could maintain it. I mean I could see MAYBE the Ultramarines managing that size of a fleet because they have all of Ultramar to draw from but...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/06 07:39:45


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BrianDavion wrote:
the space wolf fleet is stupid big for a modern day chapter but is hardly GC sized.

That said I agree it's rediculas. I can't see how they could maintain it. I mean I could see MAYBE the Ultramarines managing that size of a fleet because they have all of Ultramar to draw from but...

They have around 40 cruiser level ships and up iirc. That is on the level of the Primarch led expeditionary fleets in the HH series. That's what I meant by GC level. Its at least 3-4 times the size of a regular Chapter's fleet, approaching smaller Legion level.

Yeah besides it being stupid because if every ship has at least 1 Marine on board it means with frigates included like 1/5th of the Chapter is likely always stuck on crew duty. But just the fact that an almost Deathworld like Fenris can sustain such amounts of crews and serfs is just silly. The Ultramarines would indeed be more believable as they have a significant base to draw from.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/06 07:52:33


Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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 Disciple of Fate wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
the space wolf fleet is stupid big for a modern day chapter but is hardly GC sized.

That said I agree it's rediculas. I can't see how they could maintain it. I mean I could see MAYBE the Ultramarines managing that size of a fleet because they have all of Ultramar to draw from but...

They have around 40 cruiser level ships and up iirc. That is on the level of the Primarch led expeditionary fleets in the HH series. That's what I meant by GC level. Its at least 3-4 times the size of a regular Chapter's fleet, approaching smaller Legion level.

Yeah besides it being stupid because if every ship has at least 1 Marine on board it means with frigates included like 1/5th of the Chapter is likely always stuck on crew duty. But just the fact that an almost Deathworld like Fenris can sustain such amounts of crews and serfs is just silly. The Ultramarines would indeed be more believable as they have a significant base to draw from.



on the other hand, the fleet listings for other chapters seemed under strength in some ways, I know that they listed thunderhawk gunship numbers that just seemed too low.

I notice the 8th edition codices seem to not give fleet numbers, proably a smart move.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/06 09:51:31


Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
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Yes, numbers was never really the strong suit of GW. But the standard fleet size seems to be 1-3 battle barges and a strike cruiser for each company. In plenty Black Library books the existence of SM frigates seems all but forgotten.

Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Always thought the Rhino was ok, heavier frontal armour than a Chimera, weaker flank armour - its not meant to fight and survive up close, it offers protection on the way in with the frontal armour - marines get out, rhino backs off to lurk nearby.

On the chapter numbers.. I always took it as 1,000 battle brothers, there are likely three times that in addition in the chapter in non-direct combat roles, they have the augmentation and basic training to be able to handle garrison duties, lead the various auxiliary forces, vehicle crews, maintenance crews, pilots etc
   
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Eye of Terror

The simplest reason for the ubiquity of the Rhino would be supply chain.

The Rhino chassis is also used for Razorbacks, Predators and other vehicles in use by Space Marines. The fact they have a chassis that can be used for transport, support and weapons platforms sets it apart from other vehicles. You need less machinery to maintain it, you need less specialized knowledge about different chassis to operate it.

There's an economy to operating any military enterprise and Space Marine chapters are no different. Sure, they could invest in larger vehicles with better weapons, but they are monks. They aren't always going to make decisions based on efficiency, there are some decisions that will come down to faith. They have a book that says use a Rhino, so they are going to use a Rhino.

Let's call this the dumb marine theory of chapter logistics. If every chapter in the Imperium uses the same vehicles, the cost to maintain all of those vehicles in aggregate goes down. This means the Fringe Marines chapter gets the same toys as the Ultramarines even though they fight on backwards planet on the extreme fringes of the Universe.

The fact that vehicle is sub-optimal is besides the point. The Imperium is a bureaucracy and certain considerations must be made for the bureaucracy to survive. If you've ever read Catch-22, remember Minderbinder and his chocolate covered cotton balls?

That's what the Rhino is in 40k. A chocolate cover cotton ball everyone loves because they are told to love it.

   
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I think the shape of the Rhino is what makes it useful. Narrow enough to go most places (unlike a Land Raider), small enough to fit inside landing craft and use cover to best advantage on the way to the target. Aircraft make dodgy transports if the enemy has enough Anti-Air or Air-to-Air defenses.

   
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 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
So this came up in my ongoing fanfic and it is one of those thing that's bugged me for a long time, why are marines riding around in Rhinos?

They're less well armored and armed than Chimeras, only carry 10 men, and generally don't seem worth hauling halfway around the galaxy to serve as a stable for the Emperor's elite. Plus since marines have drop pods and fliers why are they grinding through the mud at all, shouldn't they be an exclusively airborne army?

The real reason of course is they were the first plastic vehicle kit and have remained more or less the same over 30 years even while GW has rolled out bigger better kits. But that's not a good in universe explanation.

I've always been a fan of Marvel Comic's No Prize, a prize fans could win, not for pointing out errors but for coming up with a clever handwave to show there never was an error at all.

So...

Space Bradleys - Rhinos are light and poorly armored because they need to be transported by Thunderhawks (which function as Space C-130s+Space B-52s). The lack of firepower is easily explained by the fact the the ten marine on board are the firepower,the Rhino is just a taxi to get them there. Similarly the variants like the Predator, Vindicator etc are still light enough for air dropping while the Leman Russ etc are not.


(Props to Ironhands.com for the image and the scratch build)

Essential - The humble Rhino may play essential roles that its game stats do not reflect. For example Marines are logistically demanding. Sure you can drop a Marine naked on a planet and he'd be able to survive and fight using whatever local resources are available. But if want them at peak effectiveness in full armor you need to feed them their drugs, battlefield data, power, parts and everything else. I imagine Marines riding in a Rhino standing silently at attention, cables and tethers plugged into their armor feeding them everything from orbital images to drugs and medication, playing sacred hymns in their ears, to running simulations of the coming battle. All the while servo skulls, mechanical arms and those small robed servants we see in art scurry around their feet tending the armor, checking ammo levels etc. It would be tight quarters but this is an APC not a luxury limo.





Replaceable - Canonically Rhinos are a simple design that can be made on almost any Imperial world. So Marines can acquire Rhinos locally to replace battlefield loses. This is of course the opposite of the 'Essential' point but they can both work, just imagine there's a continuum, from bare metal boxes hastily painted in Chapter colors, to revered relic rhinos that can serve as a Marine's home from home. Game-wise it would make no difference just fluff and modeling.

Drivers - Who drives the Rhino has always been a tricky question (along with where does he fit). With only 1000 marines can you spare 10% of these superhumans to serve as bus drivers? My head canon is failed aspirants and crippled marines drive it (which is why you sometimes see the driver called a Brother in fiction or poking out of a hatch) but they are not full Battle Brothers and don't count towards the 1000. They're generally wired in but are not lobotomized like servitors. Some might be mostly human, others little more than a brain and spine in a bottle. Other Rhinos might be driven by serfs or ordinary brothers but the ones that go into battle will have near-Marine drivers.

What about the Space Hueys? - The introduction of the Storm Raven creates a problem since marines now have a flying tank with far better weapons than the Rhino or even the Razorback and Predator. (It's also very silly looking but that's another argument). Probably the best way to explain why Rhinos are still around is scarcity. Storm Ravens are much harder to build and maintain and if one is lost may take a decade or more to be replaced.
Plus they look stupid.



Hobbled - Space Marines were deliberately hobbled after the Heresy, capped at 1000 Brothers etc. Saddling them with Rhinos may be part of that.

Tradition - Similarly Marine doctrines were laid down at the end of the Heresy a different time. Fliers and heavier armor may have been in critically short supply, and once the Rhino (and variants) were codified it was hard to change things.

So that's my little list, personally the Bradley theory is my favorite. The need to airlift tanks is why the US has an aluminum APC and it would make sense for the Imperium.


You can't send drop pods into a siege war, unless the defences are close to being broken and you want marines in the fortress. They will fight on many parts of a world, are they to drop pod, go back up to be drop podded again on another battle on the world... they can all go into thunderhawks, there aren't enough. Marines are already armoured like tanks, they don't need as much protection as guardsmen, but chimeras are only tougher in the game, rhinos are made out of ceremite. They are an STC construct and therefore extremely reliable and can be adapted into many other types of tanks. They are also easier to make and more can be made than land raiders. Nor does every tactical situation warrant extreme armoured protection. Not all transports are transporting models in the heat of battle either, many are used to drive between already conquered battle fields, many are probably also used for scouting, or for dropping marines off for surveillance of battle fields or fortified positions etc. like special forces do, you aren't going to risk a valuable land raider getting destroyed on a scouting mission. A land speeder has bad armour, does that make that bad...

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/07/06 19:08:51


 
   
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U.k

Basically they don’t need anything fancy they just need a metal box to get them safely from a to b. They are dangerous enough. Also 40k doesn’t work like the real world, marines looking at chimeras and saying “we should use those they are better than the rhino” is a sin. It’s close to heresy. They use rhinos and bolters because they always have ab they are holy. Development and improvement is heresey (unless it sell models- I’m looking at you, you new dangled razorback).

Originally vehicles were crewed by techmarines and servitors. U just had to count Techmarine outside the normal 1000 marines. I would love to see rhinos back in guard armies. In fact might even make the spare one I have up as a command tank. No school like the old school.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/06 19:20:37


 
   
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Andykp wrote:
Basically they don’t need anything fancy they just need a metal box to get them safely from a to b. They are dangerous enough. Also 40k doesn’t work like the real world, marines looking at chimeras and saying “we should use those they are better than the rhino” is a sin. It’s close to heresy. They use rhinos and bolters because they always have ab they are holy. Development and improvement is heresey (unless it sell models- I’m looking at you, you new dangled razorback).

Originally vehicles were crewed by techmarines and servitors. U just had to count Techmarine outside the normal 1000 marines. I would love to see rhinos back in guard armies. In fact might even make the spare one I have up as a command tank. No school like the old school.


Space marines use them because they work. Machines are not sacred to Astartes, only to the Mechanicum. Explain in one way how they don't work, you can't otherwise they wouldn't use them in the lore. The OP thinks they are good just based on how they look and their armour rules.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/06 19:28:55


 
   
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 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Andykp wrote:
Basically they don’t need anything fancy they just need a metal box to get them safely from a to b. They are dangerous enough. Also 40k doesn’t work like the real world, marines looking at chimeras and saying “we should use those they are better than the rhino” is a sin. It’s close to heresy. They use rhinos and bolters because they always have ab they are holy. Development and improvement is heresey (unless it sell models- I’m looking at you, you new dangled razorback).

Originally vehicles were crewed by techmarines and servitors. U just had to count Techmarine outside the normal 1000 marines. I would love to see rhinos back in guard armies. In fact might even make the spare one I have up as a command tank. No school like the old school.


Space marines use them because they work. Machines are not sacred to Astartes, only to the Mechanicum. Explain in one way how they don't work, you can't otherwise they wouldn't use them in the lore. The OP thinks they are good just based on how they look and their armour rules.


Machines themselves are not sacred, but DOCTRINE is. When people talk about holding hard to the codex thats what they mean, Doctrine. not tacitcis but orginization, what inventory is used etc.

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in gb
Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut






BrianDavion wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Andykp wrote:
Basically they don’t need anything fancy they just need a metal box to get them safely from a to b. They are dangerous enough. Also 40k doesn’t work like the real world, marines looking at chimeras and saying “we should use those they are better than the rhino” is a sin. It’s close to heresy. They use rhinos and bolters because they always have ab they are holy. Development and improvement is heresey (unless it sell models- I’m looking at you, you new dangled razorback).

Originally vehicles were crewed by techmarines and servitors. U just had to count Techmarine outside the normal 1000 marines. I would love to see rhinos back in guard armies. In fact might even make the spare one I have up as a command tank. No school like the old school.


Space marines use them because they work. Machines are not sacred to Astartes, only to the Mechanicum. Explain in one way how they don't work, you can't otherwise they wouldn't use them in the lore. The OP thinks they are good just based on how they look and their armour rules.


Machines themselves are not sacred, but DOCTRINE is. When people talk about holding hard to the codex thats what they mean, Doctrine. not tacitcis but orginization, what inventory is used etc.


Wrong many chapters that are not dogmatic still employ rhinos on the same level, like the space wolves they don't pay any attention to the codex. Plus many chapters don't employ certain arsenal because it doesn't meet their MO. Space wolves, blood angels and dark angels do not use a wide array of SM stuff.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/06 21:03:53


 
   
Made in ca
Chaplain with Hate to Spare





 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Andykp wrote:
Basically they don’t need anything fancy they just need a metal box to get them safely from a to b. They are dangerous enough. Also 40k doesn’t work like the real world, marines looking at chimeras and saying “we should use those they are better than the rhino” is a sin. It’s close to heresy. They use rhinos and bolters because they always have ab they are holy. Development and improvement is heresey (unless it sell models- I’m looking at you, you new dangled razorback).

Originally vehicles were crewed by techmarines and servitors. U just had to count Techmarine outside the normal 1000 marines. I would love to see rhinos back in guard armies. In fact might even make the spare one I have up as a command tank. No school like the old school.


Space marines use them because they work. Machines are not sacred to Astartes, only to the Mechanicum. Explain in one way how they don't work, you can't otherwise they wouldn't use them in the lore. The OP thinks they are good just based on how they look and their armour rules.


Machines themselves are not sacred, but DOCTRINE is. When people talk about holding hard to the codex thats what they mean, Doctrine. not tacitcis but orginization, what inventory is used etc.


Wrong many chapters that are not dogmatic still employ rhinos on the same level, like the space wolves they don't pay any attention to the codex. Plus many chapters don't employ certain arsenal because it doesn't meet their MO. Space wolves, blood angels and dark angels do not use a wide array of SM stuff.


much of that SM astuff they don't use is new. the rhino dates back to the great crusade. "it was good eneugh for the primarch it's good eneugh for us" don't assume a chapter that isn't codex compliant isn't equally dogmatic in it's own way. there's also logistics to take in mind. sure a chapter COULD use something differant but the rhino is there, it's got lots of spare parts, etc. it's good eneugh for what it's needed for, and when a heavier transport IS needed. they have land raiders.

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in gb
Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut






BrianDavion wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Andykp wrote:
Basically they don’t need anything fancy they just need a metal box to get them safely from a to b. They are dangerous enough. Also 40k doesn’t work like the real world, marines looking at chimeras and saying “we should use those they are better than the rhino” is a sin. It’s close to heresy. They use rhinos and bolters because they always have ab they are holy. Development and improvement is heresey (unless it sell models- I’m looking at you, you new dangled razorback).

Originally vehicles were crewed by techmarines and servitors. U just had to count Techmarine outside the normal 1000 marines. I would love to see rhinos back in guard armies. In fact might even make the spare one I have up as a command tank. No school like the old school.


Space marines use them because they work. Machines are not sacred to Astartes, only to the Mechanicum. Explain in one way how they don't work, you can't otherwise they wouldn't use them in the lore. The OP thinks they are good just based on how they look and their armour rules.


Machines themselves are not sacred, but DOCTRINE is. When people talk about holding hard to the codex thats what they mean, Doctrine. not tacitcis but orginization, what inventory is used etc.


Wrong many chapters that are not dogmatic still employ rhinos on the same level, like the space wolves they don't pay any attention to the codex. Plus many chapters don't employ certain arsenal because it doesn't meet their MO. Space wolves, blood angels and dark angels do not use a wide array of SM stuff.


much of that SM astuff they don't use is new. the rhino dates back to the great crusade. "it was good eneugh for the primarch it's good eneugh for us" don't assume a chapter that isn't codex compliant isn't equally dogmatic in it's own way. there's also logistics to take in mind. sure a chapter COULD use something differant but the rhino is there, it's got lots of spare parts, etc. it's good eneugh for what it's needed for, and when a heavier transport IS needed. they have land raiders.


And much of it is not new, so that point is irrelevant. ""it was good eneugh for the primarch it's good eneugh for us"" that is just your opinion. Space Wolves don't use many things that 30k wolves did and of which they still have access to. Yes they are dogmatic in their own way but you were saying they take rhinos because of the codex astarted, their dogmatism in other ways is irrelevant to taking rhinos. "sure a chapter COULD use something differant but the rhino is there, it's got lots of spare parts, etc. it's good eneugh for what it's needed for, and when a heavier transport IS needed. they have land raiders." this just proves my point. You are saying the only reason they take them is dogmatism, but you just repeated my original point which you contradicted in your reply to me.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/07/07 00:51:55


 
   
Made in fi
Confessor Of Sins




 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Space marines use them because they work. Machines are not sacred to Astartes, only to the Mechanicum.


Machines are often quite a bit sacred to the Marines, though not always just because of the machine but also because of who used it to do what where. They pray to their guns and armors so they'll not fail in battle. Ancient armors and weapons are refurbished and used again, gifted to marines that earn the right to use this or that hero's gauntlets, breast plate or chain sword. Good marines risk their lives to recover a wrecked Rhino because it's theirs and has been for ten thousand years, transporting countless squads into glorious battle.

The design itself might not be "sacred" to them but they will react like violent religious fanatics if you scratch the Rhino that carried Captain Facesmasher's Command Squad into the legendary battle where he died!
   
Made in gb
Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut






Spetulhu wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Space marines use them because they work. Machines are not sacred to Astartes, only to the Mechanicum.


Machines are often quite a bit sacred to the Marines, though not always just because of the machine but also because of who used it to do what where. They pray to their guns and armors so they'll not fail in battle. Ancient armors and weapons are refurbished and used again, gifted to marines that earn the right to use this or that hero's gauntlets, breast plate or chain sword. Good marines risk their lives to recover a wrecked Rhino because it's theirs and has been for ten thousand years, transporting countless squads into glorious battle.

The design itself might not be "sacred" to them but they will react like violent religious fanatics if you scratch the Rhino that carried Captain Facesmasher's Command Squad into the legendary battle where he died!


Yeah personal machines they do, not machines as a whole. Can you give an example of marines recovering wrecked rhino's, they do that with land raiders so they can fix them because they are limited. Even if they found them sacred, they wouldn't use them if they weren't good or efficient, they'd just keep them as heirloom in their chapter houses/fortresses etc. like they do with all the other relics.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/07 00:51:09


 
   
Made in de
Lesser Daemon of Chaos





Mobility (that means speed but also terrain-crossing-ability) is important factor of SM warfare. Strike fast and hard. Without fast ground vehicle they have a very limited operating range once they where deployed from orbit.

Relying on air support is dangerous and a nightmare logistically (fuel efficiency is poor, also weather conditions can force a stop to it, you just cant land everywhere). Thunderhawks dont go to places underground, or in the streets of some city or factory complex.
Rhino provides mobility right there and then, without waiting 20min for a lift. And also provides carrying capacity for weapons and ammo and whatever else they need.
How do you fight a numerical superior enemy? By lots of ammunition for starters. Where does this ammo come from? Well, it needs to be transported to the ground and from there to where it's actually needed at the time. The only other solution is that marines have to be employed as super-human mules for rear echelon duties... not very efficient use of manpower i say.

The only thing that needs serious handwaving (or is outright impossible) is how 10 marines actually can fit inside a Rhino and yet regular people also beeing able to use it. I tried fitting marine 3D models into 3D Rhinos scaled to FW size dimensions... 6 in the cargo compartment is already a tight fit (they have to hunch down). To fit 10 marines into the design we got, it has to be quite a bit larger than what FW gives us. That means for humans trying to use it, it would be like a 8-10 yo child trying to drive a normal car. And conversely-maybe 16-20 normal humans would fit inside because of how spacious marines are with their armor and backpack. Still trying to find a good solution for scale there. I'm considering settling on the explanation that there must be 2 versions: 1 Rhino for astartes, 1 Rhino for regular humans. Just like Dark Heresy came up with the Bolter existing in different types - "human bolter" and "astartes bolter".

This differentiation between astartes and human Rhino also makes it more paletable that some Rhinos in SM hands have survived 10.000 years of constant use without getting blown up at some point. They are just better armored than your average human rhino or chimera and therefore survive enemy fire better.

From realistic standpoint - Rhino is much much more mobile over a Chimera in rough terrain because the suspension has more travel. In a Chimera as passenger/ crew you would be shaken like crazy and the drive train would capitulate eventually from driving too fast in rought terrain because of poor suspension design. And the crew would be exausted from beeing jerked and bumped around all the time (possibly even with back injuries after short time).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/07 03:17:27



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