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Made in vn
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It might just be me but I've noticed recently that GW has taken a rule from the Video games worlds books and potentially started cutting up rules to sell later on as DLC content (obviously it's not DLC as you can't download it. It's more BLC like, buy later content. But there isn't enough content to be a full expansion). For example, I'm noticing a remarkable number of units missing from these kill team previews. Units that are plastic and you would obviously expect to be there (Orgyns and Bulgryns for example). The recent Tyranids preview shows it has nothing to do with their size (as tyranid warriors are there) so I'm predicting we will see DLC style content where we're given the option to buy the options that are missing. We are basically getting day one DLC (just like the video game industry) already as GW has decided to not sell every factions rules (the command abilities mainly I belive) in the core rule book and has opted to make them exclusive to the units starter packs.

So, I'm wondering what you guys think? Are they cutting out rules to sell later? Is there any evidence either way? Is this good or bad (the gamers in the digital industry are highly against most DLC now)? And does this mean we might finally get a DLC season pass where we get all the rules we want for a monthly fee?
Discuss below!
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I think a better question is how long is GW going to charge for rules? So many other games have go to downloaded for free rules, and living rulebooks, and such.

I’d prefer that system. I don’t feel GW puts out such high quality rules I want to spend money on them. I also feel like I just want the rules, Not sure I want to spend money to subsidise the art industry that GW has.
   
Made in ca
Storm Guard




GW can make a profit off of printing rules due to the power of bulk discounts. Other game companies have a smaller audience and the profit on printed rulebooks is negligible or non-existent.

EG: GW has more leverage and can print 1million books at a lower cost per unit than a very small minis company that is looking to print 20k units. A company printing 20k codex-sized books, after labor(design/rules/fiction), printing, and shipping, is likely paying 15-25 dollars per book.

As always, its a matter of cost, not companies being nice. GW will continue to print rulebooks as long as it is profitable for them.

I think the expectation of 'free' rules is a downward spiral for gaming. 'free' means the manufacturer isn't incentivized to develop the backstory as well, nor art, or anything else that expands the gameworld.
   
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SirWeeble wrote:
GW can make a profit off of printing rules due to the power of bulk discounts. Other game companies have a smaller audience and the profit on printed rulebooks is negligible or non-existent.

EG: GW has more leverage and can print 1million books at a lower cost per unit than a very small minis company that is looking to print 20k units. A company printing 20k codex-sized books, after labor(design/rules/fiction), printing, and shipping, is likely paying 15-25 dollars per book.

As always, its a matter of cost, not companies being nice. GW will continue to print rulebooks as long as it is profitable for them.

I think the expectation of 'free' rules is a downward spiral for gaming. 'free' means the manufacturer isn't incentivized to develop the backstory as well, nor art, or anything else that expands the gameworld.


What kind of business propaganda have you been smoking? Some of the best lore ever created came out of free to play games, free rule and free books. Hell, it's not like Gw starts giving away models as well and they're likely to continue to sell the books just give the data sheets away. Look at AoS as a massive example from GW themselves! Hell, look at the Star Wars universe for the opposite - the more money that IP made the worse the lore and backgrounds got! The first two films were had more deoth and care with a fraction of the budget anything else after had.
   
Made in pl
Dakka Veteran




Isn't stuff like yearly CA, already something like a seson pass? All GW needs to do to have a full DLC/seson pass system is to split the year in to some sort of seson events. Each event would come with special rules in form of a book that would last for 4 months. Each 4 month the rules would switch, and it would not be legal to use the rules from the seson before. And GW could add spicy stuff like letting ad mecha run necron units, or an eldar+ultramarine soups. Add some seson relics, or stratagems, and people would be killing themselfs to get those event books.
   
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Grizzled MkII Monster Veteran





Mississippi

GW has been doling out add-ones for years already (see Space Hulk, Deathwing & Genestealer for one of the earliest examples).

I’m not fond of it, considering most is 90% rehashed from stuff that previously existed, but they have to break in it some manner to pay their bills - and make it affordable.

Would be nice though, if they’d go more toward having downloadable (extra) content for free, paper-printed if you want to pay. The AoS battlescrolls and the add-on for Shadow War are an example of what I’m talking about. I’d love if they went to an FFG-like model; you can go to their website and download the rule book for just about any of their games. And I think they have the likes of their cards for X-wing on the site somewhere (heck, WotC has every MtG card to view on their site - they’re still making tons of money).

It never ends well 
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




Umm when you get right down to it, Between 3d printing and electronic formats, all you can really sell in the future is a compelling universe. GW is already showing this. The Mini’s are good, but not the greatest. The Rules are okay, but not even close to great. The only real first class thing they have is the Fluff, the novels and universe.
   
Made in vn
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine





Karol wrote:
Isn't stuff like yearly CA, already something like a seson pass? All GW needs to do to have a full DLC/seson pass system is to split the year in to some sort of seson events. Each event would come with special rules in form of a book that would last for 4 months. Each 4 month the rules would switch, and it would not be legal to use the rules from the seson before. And GW could add spicy stuff like letting ad mecha run necron units, or an eldar+ultramarine soups. Add some seson relics, or stratagems, and people would be killing themselfs to get those event books.


As someone who is way more into gaming than 40k and grew up watching the industry and environment transform this wouldn't surprise me. I seriously was one of those people who was like "I can buy extra content? Wow! Awesome! " as I was used to having to buy it physically from the store. Then, as time went on, I quickky saw a lot of this stuff wasn't extra content at all and was base game stuff that was remove for profit. I think a great example of this would be Star Wars Battlefront 1 (not 2, that games Sin is far far worse). I hope this doesn't happen to 40k but I'm already seeing hints at it... but I could be wrong.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 lolman1c wrote:
It might just be me but I've noticed recently that GW has taken a rule from the Video games worlds books and potentially started cutting up rules to sell later on as DLC content (obviously it's not DLC as you can't download it. It's more BLC like, buy later content. But there isn't enough content to be a full expansion). For example, I'm noticing a remarkable number of units missing from these kill team previews. Units that are plastic and you would obviously expect to be there (Orgyns and Bulgryns for example). The recent Tyranids preview shows it has nothing to do with their size (as tyranid warriors are there) so I'm predicting we will see DLC style content where we're given the option to buy the options that are missing. We are basically getting day one DLC (just like the video game industry) already as GW has decided to not sell every factions rules (the command abilities mainly I belive) in the core rule book and has opted to make them exclusive to the units starter packs.

So, I'm wondering what you guys think? Are they cutting out rules to sell later? Is there any evidence either way? Is this good or bad (the gamers in the digital industry are highly against most DLC now)? And does this mean we might finally get a DLC season pass where we get all the rules we want for a monthly fee?
Discuss below!


I think it's pretty clear GW has been "inspired" by DLC and "Free to Play' type practices. Look at Necromunda. Underhive doesn't contain what just about everyone seems to agree is the 'core" experience of the game, 3d terrain and campaign progression -those were left out and put into Gang War so players could pay twice for the same product, and since then they've been drip-feeding the gangs and rules. Then there's their preoccupation with boxed sets, which do contain better value, generally, than when the items are sold separately, but are still poor value, and, to get that less-poor value, you have to spend more money than you may want to, because selling individual kits for a fair price is anathema to them. It's buy now, buy often, and buy high. And don't forget the KT boxes with "exclusive" cards!
   
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 Stormonu wrote:
GW has been doling out add-ones for years already (see Space Hulk, Deathwing & Genestealer for one of the earliest examples).

I’m not fond of it, considering most is 90% rehashed from stuff that previously existed, but they have to break in it some manner to pay their bills - and make it affordable.

Would be nice though, if they’d go more toward having downloadable (extra) content for free, paper-printed if you want to pay. The AoS battlescrolls and the add-on for Shadow War are an example of what I’m talking about. I’d love if they went to an FFG-like model; you can go to their website and download the rule book for just about any of their games. And I think they have the likes of their cards for X-wing on the site somewhere (heck, WotC has every MtG card to view on their site - they’re still making tons of money).


I'm with you but I would argue this stuff is not DLC, it's more an expansion pack. Like a new game mode or something. DLC in my mind is ripping things out of the base game and selling it extra like units that should have been there, skills thatbshouldnhave been there, etc...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Reemule wrote:
Umm when you get right down to it, Between 3d printing and electronic formats, all you can really sell in the future is a compelling universe. GW is already showing this. The Mini’s are good, but not the greatest. The Rules are okay, but not even close to great. The only real first class thing they have is the Fluff, the novels and universe.


now now... let's not give them too much credit. We all know the fans made 40k the game it is... BL and the codex fluff normally reads like a hormone fulled teenagers who just read LoTR while watching startship troopers and taking cocain. Some of it is okay but it ain't no War and Peace.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/11 18:20:42


 
   
Made in us
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Mississippi

‘Should have been in the core book” though, is an opinion. Fact is, whether it is new content, core rules doled out piecemeal or regurgitation GW has to pay for it in some way some how. It just sounds like most of us aren’t happy in the way it’s being partitioned.

In the end, I think there’s plenty of ways GW could break that content out to for the betterment of their customers, but GW has ALWAYS been more focused on how they can squeeze a dime out of their customers.

It never ends well 
   
Made in vn
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 Stormonu wrote:
‘Should have been in the core book” though, is an opinion. Fact is, whether it is new content, core rules doled out piecemeal or regurgitation GW has to pay for it in some way some how. It just sounds like most of us aren’t happy in the way it’s being partitioned.

In the end, I think there’s plenty of ways GW could break that content out to for the betterment of their customers, but GW has ALWAYS been more focused on how they can squeeze a dime out of their customers.


It's an interesting business practice which has already screwed them over before when they almost became bankrupt between 6th and 7th. But it's funny to see them almost following a trend that in the gaming world has become a stigma that is already almost dead.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/11 18:26:05


 
   
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Bird from Hell






SirWeeble wrote:
I think the expectation of 'free' rules is a downward spiral for gaming. 'free' means the manufacturer isn't incentivized to develop the backstory as well, nor art, or anything else that expands the gameworld.


This is not true at all. Those things drive model sales, take away the fluff/art/etc and nobody buys the game. The shift is not to "let's do this all for charity", it's "everyone pirates the rules anyway, let's give the rules/fluff away to make people buy the real product".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Reemule wrote:
Umm when you get right down to it, Between 3d printing and electronic formats, all you can really sell in the future is a compelling universe. GW is already showing this. The Mini’s are good, but not the greatest. The Rules are okay, but not even close to great. The only real first class thing they have is the Fluff, the novels and universe.


The problem is that the fluff is inherently tied to those electronic formats. If you're just reading the fluff at home, without buying miniatures and playing games, you can easily pirate a copy of the fluff book. 3d printing, on the other hand, is much farther away from being a threat. Current consumer-level printers aren't anywhere near capable of duplicating real models, and that is not likely to change in the near future. GW's best strategy is to use the easily-pirated stuff as marketing material and make their money on the miniatures that people have to buy.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/11 19:37:38


There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in ca
Storm Guard




 lolman1c wrote:

What kind of business propaganda have you been smoking? Some of the best lore ever created came out of free to play games, free rule and free books. Hell, it's not like Gw starts giving away models as well and they're likely to continue to sell the books just give the data sheets away. Look at AoS as a massive example from GW themselves! Hell, look at the Star Wars universe for the opposite - the more money that IP made the worse the lore and backgrounds got! The first two films were had more deoth and care with a fraction of the budget anything else after had.


The 'business propaganda' I've been smoking is called "I've actually worked for a tabletop gaming company."

They were making very little money on the printed books, so putting them out for free served the purpose of 'hopefully' drawing people to the game since the rules were free - and it wasn't much of a sacrifice. If they were making decent money off of the books, they would not have given them away for free. However, the development of the free rules used copy-pasted lore and recycled art from older books.

Citing massive IPs from industry leaders doesn't really help your position. The majority of tabletop games are run by small companies.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/11 21:00:22


 
   
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Bird from Hell






SirWeeble wrote:
However, the development of the free rules used copy-pasted lore and recycled art from older books.


IOW, just like GW's current books, except you don't have to pay for them.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran






The DLC model is exactly why I'm avoiding AoS 2nd ed.

Here's a check list of items before you even start accumulating models for the army:

1. Core book
2. Malign sorcery box
3. Generals handbook
4. Faction Battletome
5. Faction specific eternal spells
   
Made in us
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets





Didn't we already bypass this phase with 7th edition?
   
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Mississippi

 oni wrote:
The DLC model is exactly why I'm avoiding AoS 2nd ed.

Here's a check list of items before you even start accumulating models for the army:

1. Core book
2. Malign sorcery box
3. Generals handbook
4. Faction Battletome
5. Faction specific eternal spells


Or, y’know, play with the downloadable PDF rules and PDFwarscrolls for free.

I have no problem with GW having multiple levels you can delve into the game at, as befits your budget. I do, however, have a problem with people thinking you HAVE to have everything to get started.

It never ends well 
   
Made in pl
Dakka Veteran




Well if your army good stuff is in one book, the rules of the game in another, the points in a third, and the army rules in the 4th, they kind of are obligatory.
   
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Member of the Malleus




Would people rather GW just stop changing the rules entirely, and just save all the changes for another edition in 3-5 years?
   
Made in kr
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller






your mind

Flaw of corporate capitalism is that transactions create fees which beancounters mistake for wealth so companies try to increase thw numbers of transactions which results in a maximally inefficient system that generates the least good for the most cost

   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





Would you prefer they had made codexes to accommodate the scores of other units or keep everything in one book?


[im]https://imgur.com/kEUzFF0.png[im]

http://insighthammer.com/ 
   
Made in gb
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!





GW realised they can have you pay for patches and people will praise them for it, so.
   
Made in us
Water-Caste Negotiator




NY

I'm most concerned about the exclusive cards. I don't want to pay extra for terrain I don't want to get and duplicates of the models I already have for faction rules supplementing what's in the core. Or telling other players core book only, when the exclusive stuff was available at release and adds personality to the team.
   
Made in ca
Chaplain with Hate to Spare





I think looking at video games is going the wrong direction here. I suspect GW is taking a lot of leads from RPGs as well, which have a constant stream of new rules etc to make them money. Might be why I find this stuff less objectionable, I remember buying 2 d&d 3rd edition rule books every month

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in vn
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SirWeeble wrote:
 lolman1c wrote:

What kind of business propaganda have you been smoking? Some of the best lore ever created came out of free to play games, free rule and free books. Hell, it's not like Gw starts giving away models as well and they're likely to continue to sell the books just give the data sheets away. Look at AoS as a massive example from GW themselves! Hell, look at the Star Wars universe for the opposite - the more money that IP made the worse the lore and backgrounds got! The first two films were had more deoth and care with a fraction of the budget anything else after had.


The 'business propaganda' I've been smoking is called "I've actually worked for a tabletop gaming company."

They were making very little money on the printed books, so putting them out for free served the purpose of 'hopefully' drawing people to the game since the rules were free - and it wasn't much of a sacrifice. If they were making decent money off of the books, they would not have given them away for free. However, the development of the free rules used copy-pasted lore and recycled art from older books.

Citing massive IPs from industry leaders doesn't really help your position. The majority of tabletop games are run by small companies.


Oh my! The "I worked for a place so I obviously know more than you could ever know" argument. Well I'm a historian so let me use a reverse argument and tell you I know more about everything that has ever happened in human history more than you and relate that knowledge to wargaming and suddenly I now know more than you. but no, seriously, GW writers were payed a fortune throuh 4th to 7th editions and their writing sucked! It was some of the worst fluff I had ever read outside of fan fiction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
I think looking at video games is going the wrong direction here. I suspect GW is taking a lot of leads from RPGs as well, which have a constant stream of new rules etc to make them money. Might be why I find this stuff less objectionable, I remember buying 2 d&d 3rd edition rule books every month


This is not about new rules (this reply also relates to a few new comments up top). Things like new editions and entire new factions are not DLC, they're expansion packs. DlC is buying an entire starter box (like the orkmkill team) for a single page of rules. GW has always played catch up now for the past 10+ years looking at talented teams who figured it out before they did so it's not beyond reason to see a few marketing people go "My kid just asked for £300 to spend on Fortnight Skins! Why can't we do this!"

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/12 06:11:21


 
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran




 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Didn't we already bypass this phase with 7th edition?


Lol, this.

People remember webstore-exclusive super-formations and 15 Euro Warhammer Digital rules for Belakor, etc.. ?

If anything, GW seems to be going backwards on this. Not to mention they cut back a lot of FAQ release frequency, precisely because people complained about it.

Is it perfect? No, and they'll demand money for it as long as the market is willing to pay for it. But we've been at place far worse than this.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/12 06:11:36


 
   
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Sunny Side Up wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Didn't we already bypass this phase with 7th edition?


Lol, this.

People remember webstore-exclusive super-formations and 15 Euro Warhammer Digital rules for Belakor, etc.. ?

If anything, GW seems to be going backwards on this. Not to mention they cut back a lot of FAQ release frequency, precisely because people complained about it.

Is it perfect? No, and they'll demand money for it as long as the market is willing to pay for it. But we've been at place far worse than this.



I did hear 5hough that the marketing department has basically taken over the entire 40k dev team like genestealers (trying to find the source of where i heard that at the moment) so maybe it will get worse again. I think we should keep an eye out for it and keep tabs on gw.
   
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Necromunda is a perfect example of "DLC".
Chapter approved for 8th is too.
GW are the EA of wargaming. Milk that cash cow!
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut






 oni wrote:
The DLC model is exactly why I'm avoiding AoS 2nd ed.

Here's a check list of items before you even start accumulating models for the army:

1. Core book
2. Malign sorcery box
3. Generals handbook
4. Faction Battletome
5. Faction specific eternal spells


Apparently that big game I played last weekend using ... none of these was all a dream, then? Those things are all items you can add after you start playing (with the possible exception of the Core book and General's handbook if you want to get into competitive play straight away.

Mind you, this has been a thing since D&D came out. For example, with Warhammer, in 3rd edition, you could work out points using the lists of points values for creatures and equipment in the rulebook, but you'd really want Warhammer Armies - a separate book that covered all the army lists (so unlike a Codex or Battletome now, most players would only need about a tenth of the content ) D&D sells the core rules, the bestiary and expanded rules separately; compartmentalisation to save some players money, or a cash grab? you choose.

Sometimes expansions are forced by the practicalities of production - additional material that couldn't be completed in time for printing deadlines or because there was too much material for the page count but not enough for the next page count up, so it's held back until there's enough for a separate book.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/12 08:12:23


 
   
 
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