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This is a problem I have been told a few people have with the game and it's the amount of doomsday weapons.

What I mean with doomsday weapons are the guns and units in the game that have either

1. Ridiculous damage output (I'm talking taking down your knights and stompas on turn 1).
2. Stupid high S high D and high AP weapons that there is zero defence against them unless you have an invulnerable save.
3. Crazy mortal wound givers where there is little you can do to protect expensive troops.

I personally see them ones in a while but tend to have more of a spam meta in my area than a doomsday weapon meta so i was wondering how true this is? And how many of these weapons and units are in the game?

List of suggested units weapons:
Necron Doomsday Cannon
Rapier laser destroyer
volcano cannon

So, captn slamguinius is a doomsday weapon, because he can take down a knight in one turn ?

I think the forge world rapier laser destroyers qualifies. A friend brought 3 to a 40k game. It costed about 100-150 pts and could do 3d6 dmg on a 5+ (enough to oneshot a land raider)

The appropriately named Necron Doomsday Cannon is a Heavy D6, S10, D6 Damage weapon, so technically capable of doing 36 wounds in a turn. Volcano Cannons would probably also count.

 p5freak wrote:
So, captn slamguinius is a doomsday weapon, because he can take down a knight in one turn ?

Slamguinius is not a doomsday weapon. He's a universe ending "why isn't every blood Angel got this load out, we would have defeated choas years ago" weapon.

 lolman1c wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
So, captn slamguinius is a doomsday weapon, because he can take down a knight in one turn ?

Slamguinius is not a doomsday weapon. He's a universe ending "why isn't every blood Angel got this load out, we would have defeated choas years ago" weapon.

To be fair, that would require the entire Blood Angels leadership to fall to the black rage which. Has its problems.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
So, captn slamguinius is a doomsday weapon, because he can take down a knight in one turn ?

Slamguinius is not a doomsday weapon. He's a universe ending "why isn't every blood Angel got this load out, we would have defeated choas years ago" weapon.

To be fair, that would require the entire Blood Angels leadership to fall to the black rage which. Has its problems.

Meh... we can deal with that after onenof them punches Khorne himself in the face.

Hmm... Would that even work against Khorne? The other chaos gods sure, maybe, but I feel that an entire chapter of Space Marines becoming insane murder machines who know of nothing other than smashing their enemies with a big hammer is like a party to Khorne.

In theory the death strike missiles are supposed to be.

Gitdakka wrote:
I think the forge world rapier laser destroyers qualifies. A friend brought 3 to a 40k game. It costed about 100-150 pts and could do 3d6 dmg on a 5+ (enough to oneshot a land raider)

Make him show you the book as its only 3d6 damage on a 6+ not 5+.

But to answer the question of the doomsday weapons, every player is capable of building their own doomsday weapon by misplays.

Be it a 0 point plasma pistol or the double double shooting catachan spearhead. If it sounds OP shenanigans ask ti see the rules, they maybe trying to cheat, but GW does writing isn't the easiest either.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Hmm... Would that even work against Khorne? The other chaos gods sure, maybe, but I feel that an entire chapter of Space Marines becoming insane murder machines who know of nothing other than smashing their enemies with a big hammer is like a party to Khorne.

It doesn't matter. The meme will be what destroys him.

You could buy an entire lascannon heavy weapon squad for the cost of a rapier.

A volcano cannon on the other hand...

Lol, doomsday ark. Contrary to the name, it is far from the knight annihilating terror suggested. Sure, it's theoretically capable of putting 56 wounds onto a knight with all guns blazing, but the reality is it averages less than 6 and that's assuming the knight gets within 12" and has the most basic 5++ inv.

In my experience, volcano cannon is legitness. That thing just deletes whatever it wants. Certainly gives the Titan's guns a run for their money.

Volcano Cannon counts.

As for the actual question: Doomsday weapons are solidly "meh" imo. The great irony is that a Volcano Cannon will wink a Knight or even badly-rolling Warhound out of existence in one volley, but even a 5 man squad of troops are relatively safe.

I'd say a doomsday weapon isn't so much a single gun as it is an entire package. The Volcano Cannon is good, but the Shadowsword is much better, only in part because of the volcano cannon. 30 Heavy Bolter shots and 4 Lascannons also contribute to making the Shadowsword into a doomsday weapon for sure, but then you're paying lots of points to be very vulnerable to selfsame doomsday weapons...

Wich highlights a "problem" with 8th edition. I say "problem" because it's really hard to quantify.

There are no guns/abilities really good at clearing chaff.

 Earth127 wrote:
Wich highlights a "problem" with 8th edition. I say "problem" because it's really hard to quantify.

There are no guns/abilities really good at clearing chaff.

Well, more chaff is always good. My Daemonettes are fantastic at it, but as 7pt units with a 5++, they probably count as chaff themselves. Plus? My Daemonettes themselves die in droves to chaff, while things like Volcano Cannons and Knights aren't scary at all.

I think this is what you get when you ask for the game to be "more about infantry" which is a cry I've heard since ~5th edition or so.

I do believe the pendulum a little too much in the other way.

Also by my defniition a unit that can come out to less than 10 pts/model can be used as horde/chaff.

I know that's generous.

 Earth127 wrote:
I do believe the pendulum a little too much in the other way.

Also by my defniition a unit that can come out to less than 10 pts/model can be used as horde/chaff.

I know that's generous.

Perhaps. I don't mind chaff being a bit important. I think the best army (command points aside) would be 60 Daemonettes in 3 units of 20, with everything else being elites/fa/big monsters. The problem is I am forced to run 90 Daemonettes if I want to have enough CP to do anything :/

Hahaa... oh man... I talk about Doomsday weapons because a lotmof the most expensive models you'd expect to be tanks are blown of the table. Watched this dude buy a warhound titan spend like half a year painting and building it then he was finally ready to bring it to the game. He put it down and the dude 1 shot killed him with a few anti titan weappns... he didn't even get to shoot a single gun! He was almost in tears. £400 and half a year of his life well spent I'd say. XD

 lolman1c wrote:
Hahaa... oh man... I talk about Doomsday weapons because a lotmof the most expensive models you'd expect to be tanks are blown of the table. Watched this dude buy a warhound titan spend like half a year painting and building it then he was finally ready to bring it to the game. He put it down and the dude 1 shot killed him with a few anti titan weappns... he didn't even get to shoot a single gun! He was almost in tears. £400 and half a year of his life well spent I'd say. XD

Sometimes this happens, though.

I have quite a few Forge World Models and a whole regiment of Baneblades. Big models getting routinely one-shot is the encouragement not to bring big models. Or, if you are bringing them, to bring lots and double down; at least one or two can do something, once.

"Doomsday weapons" aren't that much of an issue, I find; I have no problem with giant anti-tank weapons existing that throw d6-damage wounds straight through tanks' armour. I get much more annoyed when I'm told that my big expensive model, unit, etc. takes twenty or thirty shots from a D2 or Dd3 weapon.

Imagine how much more annoyed the player with the Warlord would be if it had gone down to a battery of infantry plasma guns.

A relic spartan assault tank has 8 lascannons. A relic falchion super heavy tank destroyer has a twin volcano cannon and 8 lascannons. But its highly unlikely you will see the falchion in a 2k game because it costs 1018 pts. The spartan is only 497.

I insist that slamguinius gets on your list because he can kill a knight in one turn on his own, without help from other units

 p5freak wrote:
A relic spartan assault tank has 8 lascannons. A relic falchion super heavy tank destroyer has a twin volcano cannon and 8 lascannons. But its highly unlikely you will see the falchion in a 2k game because it costs 1018 pts. The spartan is only 497.

I insist that slamguinius gets on your list because he can kill a knight in one turn on his own, without help from other units

How so? I count at most 16 damage. that doesnt factor in hitting on 3s and and wounding on 4s

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
Hahaa... oh man... I talk about Doomsday weapons because a lotmof the most expensive models you'd expect to be tanks are blown of the table. Watched this dude buy a warhound titan spend like half a year painting and building it then he was finally ready to bring it to the game. He put it down and the dude 1 shot killed him with a few anti titan weappns... he didn't even get to shoot a single gun! He was almost in tears. £400 and half a year of his life well spent I'd say. XD

Sometimes this happens, though.

I have quite a few Forge World Models and a whole regiment of Baneblades. Big models getting routinely one-shot is the encouragement not to bring big models. Or, if you are bringing them, to bring lots and double down; at least one or two can do something, once.

Then what's the point selling them and letting them in normal games? It's like having free candy and then punishing people for taking it.

 lolman1c wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
Hahaa... oh man... I talk about Doomsday weapons because a lotmof the most expensive models you'd expect to be tanks are blown of the table. Watched this dude buy a warhound titan spend like half a year painting and building it then he was finally ready to bring it to the game. He put it down and the dude 1 shot killed him with a few anti titan weappns... he didn't even get to shoot a single gun! He was almost in tears. £400 and half a year of his life well spent I'd say. XD

Sometimes this happens, though.

I have quite a few Forge World Models and a whole regiment of Baneblades. Big models getting routinely one-shot is the encouragement not to bring big models. Or, if you are bringing them, to bring lots and double down; at least one or two can do something, once.

Then what's the point selling them and letting them in normal games? It's like having free candy and then punishing people for taking it.

What do you mean what's the point? The point is to allow people to field them, for better or worse. This is like asking "what's the point in allowing Mono-Slaanesh daemons, because they always lose!".

I play mono-Slaanesh daemons, and they lose a lot, but I still have fun playing them. Badness or goodness of a unit doesn't correlate to how much fun that unit is to run for some people.

mhalko1 wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
A relic spartan assault tank has 8 lascannons. A relic falchion super heavy tank destroyer has a twin volcano cannon and 8 lascannons. But its highly unlikely you will see the falchion in a 2k game because it costs 1018 pts. The spartan is only 497.

I insist that slamguinius gets on your list because he can kill a knight in one turn on his own, without help from other units

How so? I count at most 16 damage. that doesnt factor in hitting on 3s and and wounding on 4s

4 attacks base.
+1 for Death Company Stratagem.
+1d3 for another Strat.
X2, for the Fight Again Strat.

For anywhere from 12-16 attacks, at 4 damage each.
Hitting on 3s, wounding on 3s, rerolling 1s to-hit, and a 6+ save gives you an average of...

1 attack
7/9 hits
14/27 wounds
35/81 unsaved
140/81 damage per attack, or 1.73 average damage per attack

Meaning it takes...

13.87 attacks on average to kill a Knight, or with all the Strats used, they kill a Knight with average rolls.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Earth127 wrote:
Wich highlights a "problem" with 8th edition. I say "problem" because it's really hard to quantify.

There are no guns/abilities really good at clearing chaff.

Well, more chaff is always good. My Daemonettes are fantastic at it, but as 7pt units with a 5++, they probably count as chaff themselves. Plus? My Daemonettes themselves die in droves to chaff, while things like Volcano Cannons and Knights aren't scary at all.

I think this is what you get when you ask for the game to be "more about infantry" which is a cry I've heard since ~5th edition or so.

well keep ion mind not all infantry IS Chaff, and that people who wanted more infantry generally where not talking about chaff (which everuyone took anyway because with the troop tax people just loaded up on the cheapest troops they could take) When people talk about making infantry useful what they mean is "I wanna take a chaos marine squad and have it contribute" not "I wanna take cultists"

BrianDavion wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Earth127 wrote:
Wich highlights a "problem" with 8th edition. I say "problem" because it's really hard to quantify.

There are no guns/abilities really good at clearing chaff.

Well, more chaff is always good. My Daemonettes are fantastic at it, but as 7pt units with a 5++, they probably count as chaff themselves. Plus? My Daemonettes themselves die in droves to chaff, while things like Volcano Cannons and Knights aren't scary at all.

I think this is what you get when you ask for the game to be "more about infantry" which is a cry I've heard since ~5th edition or so.

well keep ion mind not all infantry IS Chaff, and that people who wanted more infantry generally where not talking about chaff (which everuyone took anyway because with the troop tax people just loaded up on the cheapest troops they could take) When people talk about making infantry useful what they mean is "I wanna take a chaos marine squad and have it contribute" not "I wanna take cultists"

Right, but the only way infantry are useful in 40k with it's simplified rules-set is as bullet soaks. In other rules-sets, typically infantry can:
1) Dig into terrain and become almost impossible to kill.
2) Go into any terrain, even terrain that other units cannot pass through.
3) Close with and assault the enemy in situations where other unit types are unable or unwilling to go.
4) Have better durability in aggregate (a team of 6 guys is harder to wipe completely out than 1 tank, for example).
These things are what makes them better than, say, tanks.

In 40k, this means:
1) Meh, doesn't really exist, except as stratagems. Cover giving +1 to saves works on everyone, not just Infantry, and helps bullet-soaks as much as or more than elite infantry.
2) Units easily ignore terrain in 40k's movement phase. Fly units take this role from infantry and do so better to boot.
3) Elite Infantry are good at this (e.g. Khorne Berzerkers) but so are vehicles/monsters/non-infantry units (Custodes Jetbikes, Defilers, Hive Tyrants).
4) This is only true for bullet-soak guys, and is what makes them bullet soaks.

So in other words, 40k doesn't really have anything that sets infantry apart and gives them their own role that isn't overlapped by something else, except being bullet soaks. Asking for infantry to be relevant in 40k means removing the things that games with "relevant" infantry don't have:
1) If you added a mechanic to dig in and otherwise be tough on objectives, infantry will be relevant for this again, but bullet-soaks will still be better.
2) If you removed units that Fly and reduced the ability for other speedy units to go "around" terrain, than infantry marching on foot through terrain might become relevant again, though this, again, also helps bullet-soaks.
3) If you remove assaulty monsters and vehicles and whatnot, assault will be only open to Infantry, forcing elite infantry into the assault role. You lose a lot of flavour from 40k though (e.g. the iconic Space Marine Dreadnought, Imperial Knights).
4) Elite infantry will always be worse than bullet-soaks at soaking bullets, and rightfully so.

What about the squat macro cannon, fitted to the Leviathan super heavy transport?

Does that count