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Again, curiosity has gotten the better of me. I often hear folks on Dakka putting down the Land Raider, but I'm curious how many players are actually using them in their games (or are seeing them across the table being used by opponents).

For those using them, what are you using them for and have they been successful at that role?

For myself, I own each of the main variants (Base, Redeemer, Crusader, a Mark I and one I made from a pizza box back in the 80's). I don't usually use one (games tend to be too small), but the times I have it's a Crusader carrying Terminators aimed for enemy objective holders. I find it an okay model - it's generally so tough my opponent doesn't bother with trying to get rid of it and focuses on stuff that is easier to kill. Best game I had with it, I used it to rush and exterminate my opponent's Demon Prince Warlord and thus take the game-winning objective from him.

I used one back when 8th first dropped, but I learned quickly that they are just not competitively viable, for many of the same reasons that terminators are not viable. Too many points sunk into one package that isn't really hard to destroy if your opponent makes a real effort. Plus if a single Grot tags a fender it can't shoot. The Repulsor has kind of the same problem, minus the fender tagging (due to Fly keyword).

As mentioned above the main problem for me is getting locked in combat. Your paying alot of points for multiple heavy weapons on a transport that is designed to drive into the enemy. One infantry model can deny you the use of all that firepower very easily.
Plus if you bring anti tank weaponry it just isn't that easy to take down, lascannons are likely more effective against one than they are against flimsy dark elder vehicles half the time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Should be is to easy to take down

I love fielding mine but they’re so spendy points-wise that I only take it in ‘fun games’. Even against one of my regular gaming buddies it’s not much good as he play Eldar with fairly competitive builds.

I find the Crusader a bit more points-efficient purely because it’s cheaper! Puts out a lot of shots and can rinse infantry and light vehicles if paired with a Lieutenant and Captain/Master. But it’s still 300+ points tied up in one model.

Transport capacity is generally overcosted this edition when calculating cost of a vehicle. Land Raiders needs a good 50pts knocking off it, and some sort of assault deployment rule to help the people it's carrying get into melee faster, and to represent the advantage of the front hatch. Disembark after vehicle moves basically.

If I’m gonna field one I’d almost rather go the whole hog and field my Spartan. Very much a “feth you kill me first otherwise EIGHT LASCANNONS hahaha” metal box.

Oh, and a fall back and shoot, or shoot while in melee, wouldn't go amiss. You can take a Knight for about the same price as a LR after all!

The only lr that kinda worked for me was a grey knight crusader in a 1250 game because it has access to deepstrike and s5 ap1 mass bolters.

I have one gathering dust, it doesn't do enough for it's point cost.

I have used one LRC to carry my 7 men Wuflens before the 2017 CA dropped in. It was the only way to even gain a hope those Wuflen will reach combat. However, taking one of this is already another squad of 5 TH and SS Wuflen already. This shows how skewed its cost and benefit relationship is. After the CA gave Space Wolves Infantry outflank choice, I just gave up the LRC entirely.

I have 4 land raiders.
2 godhammers
1 crusader
1 redeemer

They are all trash.

I have 3 Repulsors - they are much better but still a little overpriced. Honestly I'd be happy with the replusor getting a 2+ save and a like it's brother and going down in price by about 20-30 base.

Land raiders need to go down by about 40-50 base and get a special rule that they can shoot while in close combat.

This isn't specific to land raiders but I think everything over 250 points should come stock with a 5++ save minimum. At 250 points you are drawing ap-4 weapons...Need more protection.

Have 3. Havent used them since 7th ed.
Echo all of whats been said about them.

Don't know what to do choose. I own one, but I keep changing my mind as to which army I want to use it with. So, I haven't painted it fully yet (and it probably needs to be stripped again and repainted). That said, I'm not sure which option to pick.

SG

Have 3, would never use one outside of a casual game where I'm handicapping myself. Like the monolith, GW designers put these overpriced and undergunned vehicles on a pedestal for some reason. Probably nostalgia glasses but these things need a rework from the top down as they face an environment where high strength multi-damage weapons are the norm.

 ServiceGames wrote:
Don't know what to do choose. I own one, but I keep changing my mind as to which army I want to use it with. So, I haven't painted it fully yet (and it probably needs to be stripped again and repainted). That said, I'm not sure which option to pick.

SG

The clear best option is to take a 4 las LR. Getting close with a tank that can't fallback and shoot is not wise. Best to think of it more like a bunker you can't shoot out of than a transport. If Centurions weren't so freaking over-costed they would synergize well with the LR because they can get out and shoot with no penalty. Then you'd had 10 LC and 3d3 missle launchers coming out of those 4 models. Wanna know whats crazy though? Those 4 models cost over 800 points. LOL.

I have one unbuilt with a Crusader sprue added later. Probably going to build it as a Deathwing Crusader (only other choices are regular Greenwing, Grey Knights, Deathwatch, or Iron Warrriors). Don't expect I'll use it much, but don't want it languishing in a box forever either.

What would fix the Land Raider?

Some sort of Steel-Behemoth-esque combat ability to shoot/fall back and shoot?

Or is it worse than that?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
What would fix the Land Raider?

Some sort of Steel-Behemoth-esque combat ability to shoot/fall back and shoot?

Or is it worse than that?

It needs that ability, but at the current price I don't think it would be enough for it to see play.

Stux wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
What would fix the Land Raider?

Some sort of Steel-Behemoth-esque combat ability to shoot/fall back and shoot?

Or is it worse than that?

It needs that ability, but at the current price I don't think it would be enough for it to see play.

What would? Enhanced durability? Enhanced firepower? Enhanced speed? Enhanced transport capacity/options?

Lowering the cost is the easiest fix.

 Crimson wrote:
Lowering the cost is the easiest fix.

It is the easiest fix, but I'd like to look at it theoretically, just to investigate. Instead of "fixing" the Land Raider by simply making it so cheap that its flaws disappear relative to it's price, lets investigate it's flaws so we can avoid committing them in the future? We may perhaps end up discovering a flaw in the core rules, for example, that affects Vehicles specifically.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Lowering the cost is the easiest fix.

It is the easiest fix, but I'd like to look at it theoretically, just to investigate. Instead of "fixing" the Land Raider by simply making it so cheap that its flaws disappear relative to it's price, lets investigate it's flaws so we can avoid committing them in the future? We may perhaps end up discovering a flaw in the core rules, for example, that affects Vehicles specifically.

I agree with Unit. So many discussions around the viability of certain units centre on 'making them cheaper'. That's not really a fix for the problem, though. The issue, and it has been an issue for a few editions, is that Landraiders don't actually DO much. They're a 300 point taxi that will never make its points back and isn't enough of a force multiplier to pick over anything else.

If we keep just saying 'make marines cheaper' you've basically turned them into a horde army and taking away from their character. Marines need reworking. A lot of reworking.

Don't own one, and have only ever faced them in my FLAGS trademarked "Unlimited Points Mega Battles."

Well, one thing that sticks out that others have mentioned is locking it in close combat. Vehicles of Rhino size and larger ought to be able to use their bigger guns against distant targets even if surrounded by infantry, and I would think be trying to dissuade surrounding troops with the pintle weapons (or flat running troops in the way over). Something the size and power of the Land Raider should have the steel behemoth rule - allowing it to back up and blast anything that attempts to lock it in melee.

I feild mine alot I got a pretty casual meta but god dam for it's cost it sucks. Your paying around 300 points for a 10 man tac squads worth of shots and transports in general for marines don't really make sense anymore when you can just put more dudes on the table.

They used to be what? 240 to 250 points in 7th? And even then, they didn't see a ton of play.

SG

I would field a LR over a Monolith all day and night , even tho the LR is damn overcosted.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Stux wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
What would fix the Land Raider?

Some sort of Steel-Behemoth-esque combat ability to shoot/fall back and shoot?

Or is it worse than that?

It needs that ability, but at the current price I don't think it would be enough for it to see play.

What would? Enhanced durability? Enhanced firepower? Enhanced speed? Enhanced transport capacity/options?

In addition to Steel Behemoth to protect it from getting locked in combat, I'd also give it the ability to allow units to disembark after movement instead of before, as a rule for its Assault Ramp. I'd also give the same rule to Stormravens who also struggle a bit at the moment.

I appreciate why you don't want to reduce points much, I feel the same way about regular marines. If you drop points too much it devalues them. However I feel there is still room for maneuvering down on the Land Raider before we get to that problem. It's currently only a little less than a Baneblade and about the same as the cheapest Knight loadouts. I don't think it belongs in that category. 300 makes more sense to me, whilst still being significantly higher than a fully kitted predator.

We could look at durability too, as I still don't think the fixes I've suggested so far make the unit all that great even at 300. It's already fantastic against small arms, but drops pretty quickly to heavy weapons. Which is fine, except with how many Lascannons people spam it still feels like they go down a bit too quick. Invulns don't really help as a 5+ is basically irrelevant and a 4+ I feel is too strong. It's a really fine balance. Instead I'd suggest a rule (incidentally one I'd also give to Terminators) where if the model has more than 1 wound, a single attack cannot reduce it to 0 wounds. Basically while you're above 1, it will always take at least two attacks to down it. That might be enough.

 ServiceGames wrote:
They used to be what? 240 to 250 points in 7th? And even then, they didn't see a ton of play.

SG

IMO they were alot better last edition. Since you needed something like grav/lance like rule or S8+ to even hurt them and their transport ability was better.

Stux wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Stux wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
What would fix the Land Raider?

Some sort of Steel-Behemoth-esque combat ability to shoot/fall back and shoot?

Or is it worse than that?

It needs that ability, but at the current price I don't think it would be enough for it to see play.

What would? Enhanced durability? Enhanced firepower? Enhanced speed? Enhanced transport capacity/options?

In addition to Steel Behemoth to protect it from getting locked in combat, I'd also give it the ability to allow units to disembark after movement instead of before, as a rule for its Assault Ramp. I'd also give the same rule to Stormravens who also struggle a bit at the moment.

I appreciate why you don't want to reduce points much, I feel the same way about regular marines. If you drop points too much it devalues them. However I feel there is still room for maneuvering down on the Land Raider before we get to that problem. It's currently only a little less than a Baneblade and about the same as the cheapest Knight loadouts. I don't think it belongs in that category. 300 makes more sense to me, whilst still being significantly higher than a fully kitted predator.

We could look at durability too, as I still don't think the fixes I've suggested so far make the unit all that great even at 300. It's already fantastic against small arms, but drops pretty quickly to heavy weapons. Which is fine, except with how many Lascannons people spam it still feels like they go down a bit too quick. Invulns don't really help as a 5+ is basically irrelevant and a 4+ I feel is too strong. It's a really fine balance. Instead I'd suggest a rule (incidentally one I'd also give to Terminators) where if the model has more than 1 wound, a single attack cannot reduce it to 0 wounds. Basically while you're above 1, it will always take at least two attacks to down it. That might be enough.

"A little less than a Baneblade" means 158 points cheaper (Baneblade stock is 458), so meh.

And your proposed rule is a bit extreme - first of all, it doesn't do much, as I think the only single attack that can kill a Land Raider is a Shadowsword or perhaps the new Knight maybe. I think the bigger problem ( and this is a point I harp on all the time) is the ridiculously high lethality of Warhammer 40k, right now. I know that's unfixable, but just to make sure I understand:
Your basic premise is that the problem with the Land Raider is its durability?