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Thousand Sons have about 60% winrate, the highest of the bunch and there are quite a few of them there to negate any skewing.
If you are still in doubt, ignore the Smite spam: bring Magnus to a friendly game against an unsuspecting opponent and you auto-win. It happens so regularly in Youtube Battle Reports. Bringing 3 big Dark Reaper squads or Guilliman surrounded by Hellblasters is cheese, but having Magnus winning the game on his own is rarely considered such.
bibotot wrote: So I have no idea why people complain so much about the Guards, Dark Eldar and Yunnari, when the true broken faction is the Thousand Sons.
This is the list of factions and their performance at the NOVA open. I know the Guards won 1st place, but look.
Thousand Sons have about 60% winrate, the highest of the bunch and there are quite a few of them there to negate any skewing.
If you are still in doubt, ignore the Smite spam: bring Magnus to a friendly game against an unsuspecting opponent and you auto-win. It happens so regularly in Youtube Battle Reports. Bringing 3 big Dark Reaper squads or Guilliman surrounded by Hellblasters is cheese, but having Magnus winning the game on his own is rarely considered such.
Your scenario is not a friendly but a rather unfriendly game. Only play with reasonable people and avoid WAAC jerks.
bibotot wrote: So I have no idea why people complain so much about the Guards, Dark Eldar and Yunnari, when the true broken faction is the Thousand Sons.
This is the list of factions and their performance at the NOVA open. I know the Guards won 1st place, but look.
Thousand Sons have about 60% winrate, the highest of the bunch and there are quite a few of them there to negate any skewing.
If you are still in doubt, ignore the Smite spam: bring Magnus to a friendly game against an unsuspecting opponent and you auto-win. It happens so regularly in Youtube Battle Reports. Bringing 3 big Dark Reaper squads or Guilliman surrounded by Hellblasters is cheese, but having Magnus winning the game on his own is rarely considered such.
Your analysis doesn't make sence to me
You say you looked at 481 lists but only 237 primary detachments and 370 secondary detachments? None of that adds up
Also it's hardly way above the number of factiona with 50-60% rates
Looks like someone doesn't know that avarge of sample sizes is prone to destabilisation, if there is a big difference between the size of each sample.
If you have 5 1ksons players in a 500man event, and one gets to top 20, the avarge win rate of a 1ksons player will make them seem to be gods of w40k.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
If you want to point fingers at the Sons' Codex, then point them at Ahriman, Daemon Princes and Tzaangor blobs. Magnus is autowin? What kind of meta are you frollicking in? My local scene is pretty damn fluffy, and even here at the moment, bringing magnus means you're betting on getting 1st turn. The game is dominated by knights, and attempts to counter knights: both knights and their counters work real well on Magnus. The guy just folds unless you can get glamour & weaver on him, and he only really makes sense in a double primarch list in competitive 40k I think. Magnus comes in dead last place in terms of the 3 primarchs.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/05 17:31:48
grouchoben wrote: Magnus comes in dead last place in terms of the 3 primarchs.
Slightly OT, but this is patently false. Mortarion is the worst primarch. He is not a force multiplier like RG (his reroll can be granted by a Demon Prince for fewer points), and he is woefully behind Magnus in the psychic department. Mortarion is generally more survivable with DR, but Magnus can get a 3++
We mortals are but shadows and dust...
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Playing Magnus is far from auto-win, even in 'friendly' games. He can so easily be removed turn-1, and then you're down a quarter of your points for the rest of the game.
TS are upper mid tier IMO. In a soup scenario they can make really brutal lists.
Magnus dies turn 1 without going first. If he goes first he probably makes up his points turn 1. So it's best to leave him out of it.
Ahriman and DP are amazing though. Not sure the best meatsheild for these guys but it is probably DG nurglings.
DGTS lists are friggen brutal.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
fe40k wrote: If your opponent can't 1round a Magnus, they can't 1round the innumerable other threats that share similar statlines.
They deserve to lose.
That sounds harsh to say, but 40k is not a forgiving game - it's hardly even balanced at all.
That depends how, who, and where you play. Many players ask for not comp games and dont play like you described, not everyone is a tournament player, actually many are not.
fe40k wrote: If your opponent can't 1round a Magnus, they can't 1round the innumerable other threats that share similar statlines.
They deserve to lose.
That sounds harsh to say, but 40k is not a forgiving game - it's hardly even balanced at all.
Doesn't speak well of the status of the game if 1 shotting primarch sized models is not just possible but essential though...
Neither does said Primarch being able to waltz across the board into your deployment zone and destroy his own points worth of stuff in 1 round either, but here we are.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/06 04:32:47
Xenomancers wrote: Ahriman and DP are amazing though. Not sure the best meatsheild for these guys but it is probably DG nurglings.
DGTS lists are friggen brutal.
TS/alpha legion have a solid base, cultists on the alpha legion side being -1 to hit as screens.
Typically Ahriman on a disk, a TS prince, and chaff to start the TS half, a jump-sorcerer with combi-weapon (warp shells), amped-up slaanesh prince, and 1+ units of slaanesh oblits or similar on the other side.
Brings 13CPs and optional regen, mortal wounds and death hex, some big hitters, 60+ screening bodies, and at around 1000pts plenty of room to build up with.
Or they have a faction with little ranged firepower and an opponent who has made at least a token effort of screening the guy, or they came in expecting a 'friendly' game and were confronted by Magnus, Mortarion, Ahriman, and friends - so i'd say 'deserve' isn't the right word.
mokoshkana wrote: Slightly OT, but this is patently false. Mortarion is the worst primarch. He is not a force multiplier like RG (his reroll can be granted by a Demon Prince for fewer points), and he is woefully behind Magnus in the psychic department. Mortarion is generally more survivable with DR, but Magnus can get a 3++
You seems to think it's a closed book by saying 'Magnus has better psychic powers'. I mean, yeah, of course he does! He's the Crimson f'ing King. He gets an extra cast, 1d6 smites and +2.
However, Morty absolutely brutalises enemy infantry with phosphex/reaping, unlike Magnus; he has a very tasty baked-in MW aura, and blows up for extra MW goodness; he nerfs nearby units; has a nice range attack; and has DR which on such a tough unit, really makes him a different proposition - he essentially has 24 wounds to Magnus' 17. That makes Morty about 45% harder to kill than Magnus on T1.
Now, you may think these benefits fall short of Magnus' big USP, namely his +2 cast and super smite. I disagree, and think the only time you'll see Magnus doing well in a competitive list right now is alongside bigger threats (i.e. morty or a big knight). And I think that's pretty well supported by recent tournament data. That's fine, we disagree. But there ain't nothing patent about it.
Arachnofiend wrote: Thousand Sons by themselves are a solid mid-tier army, nothing spectacular. Only that Tzeentch/Nurgle abomination list pushes them to top tables.
May I ask what makes these two armies an "abomination" when paired together? I play against Tzeetch quite a lot but there is no Nurgle players in my area. So, I am very interested in how these two armies work together so I can "potentially" pre-pare for it if someone does run it.
Arachnofiend wrote: Thousand Sons by themselves are a solid mid-tier army, nothing spectacular. Only that Tzeentch/Nurgle abomination list pushes them to top tables.
May I ask what makes these two armies an "abomination" when paired together? I play against Tzeetch quite a lot but there is no Nurgle players in my area. So, I am very interested in how these two armies work together so I can "potentially" pre-pare for it if someone does run it.
I call it an abomination because Tzeentch and Nurgle are directly opposed chaos gods, which means they like each other about as much as say, the Drukhari and Tau do. It's a pretty simple idea; Tzeentch brings the best psychic dakka with Ahriman and the KSons Daemon Princes and Nurgle brings the best screens with Nurglings. Magnus and Mortarion are individually fairly vulnerable in a meta tuned to fight knights, but if you run both of them they are a much more significant threat.
Arachnofiend wrote: Thousand Sons by themselves are a solid mid-tier army, nothing spectacular. Only that Tzeentch/Nurgle abomination list pushes them to top tables.
What ? An army that can do 40MW per turn at 24", with all the psychic buffs they can have (re-roll 1s, +1 or even +2 to psychic powers with magnus or a stratagem), is just mid tier ?
Yeah, they're a strong army with some great tricks. But Thousand Sons by themselves do not compete with the entirety of the Imperium, or the entirety of Chaos, or the entirety of Aeldari, so they're mid-tier.
Arachnofiend wrote: Thousand Sons by themselves are a solid mid-tier army, nothing spectacular. Only that Tzeentch/Nurgle abomination list pushes them to top tables.
What ? An army that can do 40MW per turn at 24", with all the psychic buffs they can have (re-roll 1s, +1 or even +2 to psychic powers with magnus or a stratagem), is just mid tier ?
Yup those 40 cultists/guardsmen/gants are definitely dead!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/10 08:54:01
Arachnofiend wrote: Thousand Sons by themselves are a solid mid-tier army, nothing spectacular. Only that Tzeentch/Nurgle abomination list pushes them to top tables.
What ? An army that can do 40MW per turn at 24", with all the psychic buffs they can have (re-roll 1s, +1 or even +2 to psychic powers with magnus or a stratagem), is just mid tier ?
Their damage output is big, but points intensive and if you can clear their screens (which arn't as numerous as guard or as tough as nurgle those charictors die fast. You can also screw them with a Clexus or a few key denials. Its a stong army with a couple of countrr play's. Right now thats mid tier, thats unfortunately how wonky balance is.
fe40k wrote: If your opponent can't 1round a Magnus, they can't 1round the innumerable other threats that share similar statlines.
They deserve to lose.
That sounds harsh to say, but 40k is not a forgiving game - it's hardly even balanced at all.
That depends how, who, and where you play. Many players ask for not comp games and dont play like you described, not everyone is a tournament player, actually many are not.
In 8th edition you need to bring enough weapons that are good at killing daemons or vehicle, because otherwise those models will walk all over you. It really doesn't matter if you are facing are knights and daemon primarchs or an Iron Warriors army fielding a defiler, a predator, a forgefiend and a pair of hellbrutes.
If you don't bring the tools to handle your opponent's models, it's not your opponent's fault.
mokoshkana wrote: Slightly OT, but this is patently false. Mortarion is the worst primarch. He is not a force multiplier like RG (his reroll can be granted by a Demon Prince for fewer points), and he is woefully behind Magnus in the psychic department. Mortarion is generally more survivable with DR, but Magnus can get a 3++
You seems to think it's a closed book by saying 'Magnus has better psychic powers'. I mean, yeah, of course he does! He's the Crimson f'ing King. He gets an extra cast, 1d6 smites and +2.
However, Morty absolutely brutalises enemy infantry with phosphex/reaping, unlike Magnus; he has a very tasty baked-in MW aura, and blows up for extra MW goodness; he nerfs nearby units; has a nice range attack; and has DR which on such a tough unit, really makes him a different proposition - he essentially has 24 wounds to Magnus' 17. That makes Morty about 45% harder to kill than Magnus on T1.
Waitwaitwait. If you don't get turn 1, the Mortarion won't be doing any of those things. In fact, even if he does get turn 1, you need to have a warp-time sorcerer from another book or at least a Nurgle Tree near to have any chance of doing those things. Both Wartime and Miasma don't get Magnus' +2 to cast, so the chance of them failing is higher. Even if you do get to charge on turn 1, you'll probably get stuck in a screen since you barely reach your opponent's deployment zone with warp time.
Meanwhile, Magnus can cast Warptime on himself with little chance to fail and lower chance to get countered and then move 32" across the board (max 24" for Mortarion)
If you do get turn 1 with Magnus, he has a higher chance to succeed his -1 to hit as well, and 3++ makes his 18 wounds (not 17!) have a high chance to last just as long as Mortarion's 18.
In my experience, both die when roughly 500 points of anti-tank looks their way, supported by a stratagem or two.
Basically Mortarion will start doing things turn 2 unless supported with another ~100 points, while Magnus can reliably smash something of his choosing turn 1 with no help at all.
This makes Magnus the better primarch IMO, since you can just plug&play him in any list, while Mortarion forces you to support him.
The reason why they make such a good duo is that you can get Mortarion with most of Magnus' advantages, and even if you one-round Magnus to cut off Mortarion's support, you still have Mortarion surviving turn 1.
Now, you may think these benefits fall short of Magnus' big USP, namely his +2 cast and super smite. I disagree, and think the only time you'll see Magnus doing well in a competitive list right now is alongside bigger threats (i.e. morty or a big knight). And I think that's pretty well supported by recent tournament data. That's fine, we disagree. But there ain't nothing patent about it.
Note that super-smite with +2 averages out to more damage than Mortarions aura unless there are more than 4 units within 7" of him.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/10 11:05:00
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Arachnofiend wrote: Yeah, they're a strong army with some great tricks. But Thousand Sons by themselves do not compete with the entirety of the Imperium, or the entirety of Chaos, or the entirety of Aeldari, so they're mid-tier.
Apples and oranges.
You compare TSons to Blood Angels, or Guard, or Crons - not to the entirety of the Imperium, because the TSons have excellent allying options of their own on that front.
So two ranks - how they place amongst the stand alone (for what it's worth), and as part of a soup.
Hey Jidmah, fair enough. I'll chalk you down on the 'Maggie' list. I don't think taking a sorcerer is that much of a hard limit on list building, especally if you're running a Sons/DG combo. As for 1st turn, well, if you don't get it, Magnus is a goner every time in my experience. Morty is much likelier to survive. But as I said, you can make an argument either way.
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