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time to a little. as a dark angels player who hasnt yet played 8th edition with the new codex only the index. the dark angels are a really terrible codex. its as if someone at Games Workshop was actively out to make a terrible army. dare i say; the worst codex they possibly could.

for purposes of the discussion i will focus mainly on their unique HQ's and units as well as relics

HQ's:

asmodai is still a joke, Ezekiel has the rules he should of had since 6th bloody edition (and hes still under preforming so that should speak volumes), belial continues to be devalued to the point hes actively inferior to a generic captain ALWAYS now, Azreal is overcosted to gak, and sammael lost his 1 redeeming quality which was being the backbone of ravenwing only armies (as pure ravens are now defunct). the interrogator chaplain is still good, but the chaplain is only a good secondary. we have no good primary inside the dex outside of generic guys, and generic guys just means youd be better off in another codex (which i will rationale in a second). none of them outside of ezekiel and sam have any logistical synergies with anyone worth a damn but even those guys are on struggle street

relics:

the relics continue to flounder. the shroud of heroes keeps us from falling into 6th edition orky levels of uselessness here. but the heaven fall blade isnt that good, the eye of the unseen is bad, the storm bolter is mediocre, the foe smiter is okay but then you get to the lions roar and go "what are these kids thinking). the dark angels relics have 1 excellent relic, and the rest range from mediocre to terrible and you could get better from almost every other space marine army which actively slams using generic HQ's..

special units:

deathwing: i wont even entertain the idea of them being even niche useful, between the 7th edition unplayable-formations-wing and the over price and under preform of the deathwing you couldnt use them to build a mountain of melted plastic competently with them.

ravenwing: they had a good run but the nerfs to the dark talon, the breakup of the command squads, and the loss of spam all the bikes pretty much has slain ravenwing to the point they are only use is to prop up the rest of your units which are floundering in mediocrity (or worse if they were deathwing). they can only be in so many numbers and can only do so much.

this leaves us with the veterans, bless em they try. but the veterans continue to simply be a relic of a bygone age and we would be better served by sternguard and vanguard, or even if you just gave them all jump packs. jump pack veterans would probably save this unit from being otherwise a lousier version of units better in every other iteration they can be found by in other armies.

there are no redeeming qualities in the dark angels codex. and i am fairly convinced that this army was designed to eventually be the worst stand alone army in rotation at present. change my mind

Azrael is a force multiplier. He seems overcosted with smaller blobs, he's incredible with larger ones.

Relics aren't the best ever, but they're generally better than the core Space Marine ones. The Sword is decent, the shroud and Eye are both very good.

Psychic powers are significantly better than the core Marines list.

Warlord traits: there's some garbage in there, but that doesn't matter because Brilliant Strategist is awesome.

Strats:
Deep striking Plasma Inceptors with Weapons From the Dark Age. AMAZING.
Intractable - so useful to have as a tool.
Secret Agenda - ace.

I'm not going to sugar coat it, overall they are still marines and still suffer the same marine weaknesses. But they are clearly better in my opinion than all the vanilla Marine chapters other than Raven Guard. This puts them probably 3rd overall in Marines right now.

 ionusx wrote:
change my mind

You can't tell me what to do. You're not my real mother.

Dark angels right now are probably the best among marine codici, but i've yet to see the puppies in action, so they could be second best.

So far at least, it's the only marine faction that is getting some results in tourneys (As part of a soup, obviously).

They have incredibly good characters, with Azrael being probably the best chapter master around. For his cost, what he does is a complete steal. Many DA armies are built around him.
Belial is strictly better than a captain in terminator armor.
Sammael is, simply put, awesome. Even in lists that have close to no ravenwing, he gets played together with the talon master (another excellent model).
The interrogator chaplains are actually one of the worst choices there, so i think that you are reading the faction in the wrong way.

They have some really good psypowers, with access to a double hit penalty on a target. With darkshroud, this makes it the only marine faction that can put a target to -3 to hit (-4 with relic, but you have to align some stars for that).

The heavenfall sword is one of the best melee relics around.
The chapter trait is decent, but comboes well with plasma, which is the bread and butter of DA.

They have Weapons of the Dark Age, which alone takes the faction one tier higher than any other marine army.

Deathwing does have some problems, but the DW Knights are in any case considered to be the best terminators available to the imperium, and the only ones that you can deploy without completely gimping your army.

Ravenwing attack bikes and black knights cost quite a bit, but are still bikes with access to Weapons of the Dark Age and that can claim a 4++ (without penalties due to Speed of the Raven). Dark Talons are an A tier model, but that is common knowledge.


DA bottom codex? Never going to happen, Vanilla marines will always be one step behind DA.

This dude still living in 5th edition I see.


DA are freaking awesome. they have a LOT of good unique units, good strats, good relics, good traits, good psyker powers

And much of it feths over the "meta" picks.

"this HQ with a 6 inch 4++ bubble sucks"

umm wut?

BrianDavion wrote:
"this HQ with a 6 inch 4++ bubble sucks"

umm wut?

Yeah, he's so good!

I can't argue against this, we all know dark angels are the worst and need to be removed from the game.

 Stux wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
"this HQ with a 6 inch 4++ bubble sucks"

umm wut?

Yeah, he's so good!

I mean seriously, that's proably the best HQ aura in the game, save maybe Gulliman's

 ionusx wrote:
time to a little. as a dark angels player who hasnt yet played 8th edition with the new codex only the index. the dark angels are a really terrible codex. its as if someone at Games Workshop was actively out to make a terrible army. dare i say; the worst codex they possibly could.

there are no redeeming qualities in the dark angels codex. and i am fairly convinced that this army was designed to eventually be the worst stand alone army in rotation at present. change my mind

So you haven't played it yet you are convinced it is the worst codex out there.

The Dark Angels are Space Marines, so they suffer the baseline design problems that all Space Marines have in this edition. Marines seemed alright in July 2017, but once all the other books rolled out it was clear that they need a rethink. Park that for now.

HQ - The move from Index to Codex saw Azrael's buff get reigned in slightly with his 4++ aura no longer helping vehicles. Otherwise Azrael is one of the best HQs out there. He is at the centre of an effective Dark Angels build. Samael on Sableclaw actually improved dramatically from the Index to the Codex. He can also be centrepiece of a very effective Ravenwing build. The Talonmaster is an absolute gem and he was a gift from the Codex. Chaplains are a bit "meh" but with Grim Resolve morale is not as much an issue for Dark Angels and Sammael and Azrael are aleady buffing the heck out lists. Belial has done fine work, but he is different in 8th Ed compared to 6th, for instance, and you need to get past old editions. Our Warlord Traits and Relics are fine - a Heavenfall Blade on a Talonmaster has been a nasty surprise to many. We didn't get a Slamguinius, and that's OK since I doubt he will remain in his abused form much longer in this edition of GW meta-activism.

Troops. Marines are Marines. The Codex gave us Grim Resolve which lets us take larger squads without as much fear as other Marines. Rerolling 1s when staying still is great for most Troops (and heavy support for that matter). Again, this was a Codex buff compared to the Index.

Elites. The Deathwing were wobbly in the Index and did not really improve with the Codex (they got cheaper due to cuts to powerfists though). They were rendered virtually unplayable in competitive circles by other Codex (Custodes, Eldar, Dark Eldar) that came out later. Terminators need a relook by GW - nothing specific to the Deathwing. I'd love for Deathwing to be competitive again. Aggressors, though, buffed by Azrael are a solid crowd control unit.

Fast Attack. The Ravenwing are just fine, and the Strategem in the Codex makes a Black Knight list very effective running with Sammael and the Talonmaster. 8th Edition means that you cannot make Ravenwing Troops anymore but the Detachment system means that you should not be short of CPs. I ran a effective tournament Ravenwing list that had three cheap Scout squads. The Darkshroud is a great piece of kit.Might as well talk about the Dark Talon. The Big FAQ hit it hard when all it needed was the Rule of 3. Its still a great flyer.

Heavy Support. The Dark Angels do gunline very well with Grim Resolve (a Codex gift). The Weapons From the Dark Age strategem is absolutely devastating on Hellblasters or Devastator Plasma Cannons. This came from the Codex.

Bottom Line - I would take Dark Angels against any Space Marine list. We didn't get the Blood Angels Slamguinius, but I don't think that he will be around much longer in his current form. Our Codex did not bring in the same level of power bump that the Drukhari, Custodes and Aeldari received, but the Dark Angels are far from terrible. Our Codex improved some things from the Codex and gave us some nicely thought out Strategems.

Honestly I didn't bother to read after saying Azrael is terrible.

How you, OP, convince me why Azrael is terrible.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Honestly I didn't bother to read after saying Azrael is terrible.

How you, OP, convince me why Azrael is terrible.

Or how about he explains what makes grey knights better?

They're strong enough for fun and casual games, definitely not competitive without the usual soup. I think Space Wolves are much stronger, but you can do some nasty stuff with Dark Angels. They're super heavily based around characters - which make them pretty annoying to play against. If you want a plasma-shooting castle....Dark Angels will do it.

Also the general re-roll '1's to shoot when stationary is extremely strong. I think their spells generally suck.

DAs are middle ground, they are not great, but not terrible either.
Azrael and Sammael are excellent (the latter better in Sableclaw), and i think Asmodai works well with Deathwing Knights (+1 attack, reroll hits in assault) but it still comes to delivery since Land Raiders and Stormraven too much of a magnet.

Ravenwing can work, but they are not easy and knights are expensive. dark Talons still good at 200pts. They were ridiculous at 160pts, but i think the sweet spot would have been 180.

Deathwing are terminators, nuff said. At least Knights are decent.

I actually prefer a Master in terminator armour over Belial. I can give him a storm shield and power sword (upgrade to heavenfall blade) plus master of maneuver to reroll charges. he's pretty cheap.

Relics are mostly poor, but heavenfall blade and shroud are good. Traits are actually decent in right mix, but not sure why Guard strategist gets to roll for each CP rather than single strat like the DA one.

And of course, Hellblasters or Inceptors with WftDA are dangerous.

I have to believe that this is a troll post, so I really shouldn't post here because don't feed the trolls, but here goes anyway.

Dark Angels are probably the best Marines, although like others have said Marines in general aren't very good. They have certain unique abilities, units, and stratagems that give them some punch that standard Marines lack. I'll do what a couple of the above posters have done and talk about the different aspects of the army:
HQ: Azrael is possibly the best HQ in the whole game as far as utility. He gives two very solid buffs (reroll hits and 4++) and unlike some support characters he can be really nasty in CC as well. Sammael in his speeder is a great horde control HQ and can buff Ravenwing. The other named HQs are kind of lackluster, although Ezekiel would be good if we had access to better spells. The Ravenwing Talonmaster is probably the best non-unique HQ we have, as he's kind of a lesser Sammy Speeder as well as having Lieutenant buffs (reroll 1's to wound), plus he lets nearby Ravenwing ignore cover bonuses. Our captains are no worse than generic SM ones; they only seem poor in comparison with the broken BA Smashcaptain.
Troops: No better or worse than other SM ones, although our Grim Resolve helps mitigate morale issues with larger squads. Scouts are still the best choice for competitive play.
Elites: Terminators are bad, but ours are less bad than regular SM ones, and we have Belial to make them better. We lack Sternguard and Vanguard vets, but you don't exactly see a lot of those in competitive vanilla SM lists either, right?
Fast Attack: Bikes are nowhere near as good as they were in 7th edition, but they aren't the worst either. Attack Bikes and Land Speeders are absolute trash, and to me Black Knights are overcosted for what they do, but they aren't terrible either thanks to good stratagems and access to good buffs. The Darkshroud is solid gold for any DA list; -1 to hit is such a powerful mechanic. In my opinion, one of the most criminally underrated units in our codex is Scout Bikes. They are cheaper than regular bikes and actually get more shooting, even if they are slightly less durable and lack the Ravenwing keyword. I use them a lot.
Heavy Support: Thanks to Weapons from the Dark Age, Hellblasters are terrifying when used by Dark Angels. Devastators are not bad either, especially since they stand still a lot and thus benefit from Grim Resolve. Our tanks are no worse than other SM tanks, as they are the exact same.
Flyers: Dark Talons are amazing, even after the nerf from the big FAQ. Let's admit it, they were broken before. Nephilims are crappy, but if they got a price drop they might be okay. Stormravens have taken too many hits from the nerf bat, but still aren't terrible.
Relics: Heavenfall blade is really good on a Talonmaster or other character with a decent melee statline. Shroud of Heroes is pretty solid too. The other relics are kind of meh, though.
Warlord Traits: Brilliant Strategist is the best due to how powerful CP recycling is (could get nerfed in the next FAQ). Rapid Maneuver is good also if you run melee units (i.e. Deathwing Knights). Other traits are not that good.
Stratagems: Weapons from the Dark Age is what really puts us ahead of vanilla Marines, but Intracable is another huge utility one, making us less susceptible to being shut down by CC.

In short, Dark Angels are probably the best Marines, although that isn't saying a whole lot. Space Wolves might be almost as good, but honestly I think the boys in green are still better. A pure DA list isn't going to win a GT anytime soon, but pure lists rarely do anyway.

Spoletta wrote:
Dark angels right now are probably the best among marine codici, but i've yet to see the puppies in action, so they could be second best.

So far at least, it's the only marine faction that is getting some results in tourneys (As part of a soup, obviously).

They have incredibly good characters, with Azrael being probably the best chapter master around. For his cost, what he does is a complete steal. Many DA armies are built around him.
Belial is strictly better than a captain in terminator armor.
Sammael is, simply put, awesome. Even in lists that have close to no ravenwing, he gets played together with the talon master (another excellent model).
The interrogator chaplains are actually one of the worst choices there, so i think that you are reading the faction in the wrong way.

They have some really good psypowers, with access to a double hit penalty on a target. With darkshroud, this makes it the only marine faction that can put a target to -3 to hit (-4 with relic, but you have to align some stars for that).

The heavenfall sword is one of the best melee relics around.
The chapter trait is decent, but comboes well with plasma, which is the bread and butter of DA.

They have Weapons of the Dark Age, which alone takes the faction one tier higher than any other marine army.

Deathwing does have some problems, but the DW Knights are in any case considered to be the best terminators available to the imperium, and the only ones that you can deploy without completely gimping your army.

Ravenwing attack bikes and black knights cost quite a bit, but are still bikes with access to Weapons of the Dark Age and that can claim a 4++ (without penalties due to Speed of the Raven). Dark Talons are an A tier model, but that is common knowledge.


DA bottom codex? Never going to happen, Vanilla marines will always be one step behind DA.

for the cost of belial you can have a captain with jump pack in artificers with a heavenfall blade and a storm shield and a storm bolter and you will SAVE points and have functionally the same baseline barring dueling knife, you can replace his sword if you want another weapon for added utility, nevermind replacing his gun. and all you sacrificed was a 2+ armor in exchange for a 3+ invul and you picked up free points to do it. in previous editions belial had the advantage of free weapons (even then i argued against it as for less points you could again build a better belial in the same melee weapons) but now he doesnt even have that.

azreal costs a kings ransom in points and while his AoE buff is nice i dont look at just that. the sword of secrets is gak, his lions roar suffers from being a plasma gun that tries to actively kill him mid game, his baseline is only average and hes a foot marine who cannot deepstrike without a drop pod or fly transport, and who cannot keep up with other ground units youd normally want him around like ravenwings as an example because he only moves 6 and they move base 12. nevermind the fact that a chapter master somehow cant get better saves then a captain despite wearing stalwart fething protector and bearing the lions helm. he exists functionally as a PFG as he always has except now he costs exponentially more then he used too. and im aware that 8th jacked the prices on everything but in 7th he got a huge points jack and then they jacked him up further. somebody get this man a gun that doesnt kill him 25% of the time and we might have a conversation.

then we get to sam. sam will always be "good" hes a plasma cannon that can practically be everywhere and he somehow is almost better then both azreal and belial at dueling in melee (which speaks volumes of their present melee output). but without an army that moves like he does and only a precious few squads to make do. he can only be in so many places and do so much to prop up they otherwise mediocre units around him.

nobody has still picked a fight with me over veterans, guess we all agree thats a relic of a bygone age. good.

I do agree with you on the Lion's Wrath weapon for Azrael, same for the plasma cannon on Corvex and the relic Lion's Roar. These are all relics and should just have one profile for overcharging that does not kill the bearer. I never overcharge with Sammy and would not do so with Azrael.

I've wanted to use veterans, mostly to accompany a champion who is excellent value.

Grim Resolve is one of the better Chapter Tactics out of all of them - basically immune to morale (reroll with ATSKNF and at worst, lose one model) and a free captain buff on infantry/dreads. Saves points taking a cheap captain to baby sit the gun line which can be put elsewhere.

OP, you are correct. Burn your models, the fewer Dark Angel models in the world the better. Free yourself from such hideousness.

Nooo, drive to Niagara and give them to me.

I'll Mat Ward them into Falls Fallen Who Fell.

In all honesty, OP, are you high off your rocker? Of all of the Space Marine armies, Dark Angel have among the highest competitive win rates, superseded only by Blood Angels. They're at around a 40% winrate, with blood angels iirc occupying a 41% win rate. With Knight allies or a Guard CP farm you're looking at a 50%+ winrate for either DA or BA.

If you're getting your ass kicked it's because either you're playing a monocodex army in an area where the local meta resembles tourneys (making any monocodex army besides Ynnari/Dark Eldar/Death Guard a bad idea), or you're doing something wrong with your lists and deployment. Azrael is a great HQ choice because he's a useful CP tax, and can make something like a blob of guardsmen or ogryns into a terrifying poxwalker-esque horde that ensures he doesn't die.

And better saves? Azrael has a 2+/4++ save, which is better than any generic Company Master can get without terminator armor. And why the hell would you ever overcharge any plasma weapon on any HQ, ever?

As for Veterans, they are pretty much a waste of points and serve no purpose beyond the amusing of giving them all combi-plasma guns with stormshields. But otherwise they are pretty much useless, especially now that Hellblasters exist and do everything Company Veterans do - but for less points and arguably greater durability.

As a codex marine player- i WISH i had some of the tools DA have available at their disposal.

I dont get how DA, BA and SW can say a thing about their codex when each one is basically Codex space marines plus a feth-tonne of awesome extra units, relics, stratagems etc.

Seriously, If dark angels are terrible, what does that make vanilla, none UM marines?

Process wrote:
As a codex marine player- i WISH i had some of the tools DA have available at their disposal.

I dont get how DA, BA and SW can say a thing about their codex when each one is basically Codex space marines plus a feth-tonne of awesome extra units, relics, stratagems etc.

Seriously, If dark angels are terrible, what does that make vanilla, none UM marines?

But we don't get centurions

 Stux wrote:

Process wrote:
As a codex marine player- i WISH i had some of the tools DA have available at their disposal.

I dont get how DA, BA and SW can say a thing about their codex when each one is basically Codex space marines plus a feth-tonne of awesome extra units, relics, stratagems etc.

Seriously, If dark angels are terrible, what does that make vanilla, none UM marines?

But we don't get centurions

they're absurdly over priced this edition sadly :(

BrianDavion wrote:

 Stux wrote:

Process wrote:
As a codex marine player- i WISH i had some of the tools DA have available at their disposal.

I dont get how DA, BA and SW can say a thing about their codex when each one is basically Codex space marines plus a feth-tonne of awesome extra units, relics, stratagems etc.

Seriously, If dark angels are terrible, what does that make vanilla, none UM marines?

But we don't get centurions

they're absurdly over priced this edition sadly :(

Yeah, i totally agree with you!

Legitimate significant things DA's don't get from the SM book:

Raven Guard trait and strat.
Guilliman.

 Stux wrote:

Process wrote:
As a codex marine player- i WISH i had some of the tools DA have available at their disposal.

I dont get how DA, BA and SW can say a thing about their codex when each one is basically Codex space marines plus a feth-tonne of awesome extra units, relics, stratagems etc.

Seriously, If dark angels are terrible, what does that make vanilla, none UM marines?

But we don't get centurions

I mean, at their current cost.... nobody gets centurions.

 ionusx wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Dark angels right now are probably the best among marine codici, but i've yet to see the puppies in action, so they could be second best.

So far at least, it's the only marine faction that is getting some results in tourneys (As part of a soup, obviously).

They have incredibly good characters, with Azrael being probably the best chapter master around. For his cost, what he does is a complete steal. Many DA armies are built around him.
Belial is strictly better than a captain in terminator armor.
Sammael is, simply put, awesome. Even in lists that have close to no ravenwing, he gets played together with the talon master (another excellent model).
The interrogator chaplains are actually one of the worst choices there, so i think that you are reading the faction in the wrong way.

They have some really good psypowers, with access to a double hit penalty on a target. With darkshroud, this makes it the only marine faction that can put a target to -3 to hit (-4 with relic, but you have to align some stars for that).

The heavenfall sword is one of the best melee relics around.
The chapter trait is decent, but comboes well with plasma, which is the bread and butter of DA.

They have Weapons of the Dark Age, which alone takes the faction one tier higher than any other marine army.

Deathwing does have some problems, but the DW Knights are in any case considered to be the best terminators available to the imperium, and the only ones that you can deploy without completely gimping your army.

Ravenwing attack bikes and black knights cost quite a bit, but are still bikes with access to Weapons of the Dark Age and that can claim a 4++ (without penalties due to Speed of the Raven). Dark Talons are an A tier model, but that is common knowledge.


DA bottom codex? Never going to happen, Vanilla marines will always be one step behind DA.

for the cost of belial you can have a captain with jump pack in artificers with a heavenfall blade and a storm shield and a storm bolter and you will SAVE points and have functionally the same baseline barring dueling knife, you can replace his sword if you want another weapon for added utility, nevermind replacing his gun. and all you sacrificed was a 2+ armor in exchange for a 3+ invul and you picked up free points to do it. in previous editions belial had the advantage of free weapons (even then i argued against it as for less points you could again build a better belial in the same melee weapons) but now he doesnt even have that.

azreal costs a kings ransom in points and while his AoE buff is nice i dont look at just that. the sword of secrets is gak, his lions roar suffers from being a plasma gun that tries to actively kill him mid game, his baseline is only average and hes a foot marine who cannot deepstrike without a drop pod or fly transport, and who cannot keep up with other ground units youd normally want him around like ravenwings as an example because he only moves 6 and they move base 12. nevermind the fact that a chapter master somehow cant get better saves then a captain despite wearing stalwart fething protector and bearing the lions helm. he exists functionally as a PFG as he always has except now he costs exponentially more then he used too. and im aware that 8th jacked the prices on everything but in 7th he got a huge points jack and then they jacked him up further. somebody get this man a gun that doesnt kill him 25% of the time and we might have a conversation.

then we get to sam. sam will always be "good" hes a plasma cannon that can practically be everywhere and he somehow is almost better then both azreal and belial at dueling in melee (which speaks volumes of their present melee output). but without an army that moves like he does and only a precious few squads to make do. he can only be in so many places and do so much to prop up they otherwise mediocre units around him.

nobody has still picked a fight with me over veterans, guess we all agree thats a relic of a bygone age. good.

I was trying to construct an answer which would have shown you all the wrong things in your post, but then i understood that i was just baited by a troll.
GG, you got me this time.

Realistically, DA are bottom tier along with most marine armies, but they're pretty good by marine standards. Any across-the-board buffs to power armored infantry, shared marine vehicles and marine chapter tactics would benefit DA arguably the most.

BA get a "technically the best" hat with their One Dumb Gimmick

Space Wolves I'm not sure of, haven't seen their performance in tournaments but I feel like you could have similar stuff to the BA gimmick with their big beatstick characters. Biggest downside is that the don't have troop scouts.

Then you've got DA. Solidly ahead in the standings compared to regular SM, DW, and GK.

DA in general are a pretty ok codex but suffer from all the same problems that the vanilla codex SM has too. Units overpriced, not enough survive ability on power armour, boltguns not dishing enough damage, lack of decent strats, WLT, relics etc but that's been discussed a bajillion times already.

looking at the stats from NOVA I don't see how anyone can say that DA are in a good spot. They have a terrible win rate, as well as being second to last in points given up per turn.

I don't think that they are a terrible army, but the results demonstrate there are some glaring issues.