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Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




Do you think summoning ruined Age of Sigmar again? GW did it twice now? I am sure summoning is a way to sell more miniatures and trying to incorporate it into the rules again seemed to me AoS is not as hot as it was. Not because people don't like summoning but how unbalanced it seems to be.

The traffic here on Dakka is way down compared to when the General's Handbook came out at least to me. Then there was lots of excitement for 2.0 but once 2.0 hit, it seemed to drop off again. I only visit Dakka so not sure how other sites have dropped off or not in AoS traffic, discussions.

So has summoning killed AoS again or at least cooled off what was becoming a steady climb? Have we reached the cliff already because of how unbalanced summoning is?

Did Mr Roundtree do a Kirby to increase sales of miniatures and not really worry or care about balance? Is this the reason why AoS 2.0 doesn't seem as hot as General's Handbook 2016/2017 seemed to be?

Sorry for making a new thread about this, but I thought it might be off topic in the other summoning threads and didn't want to derail them.

Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.

Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?

Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".  
   
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Steady Stonecleaver







No, one can barely keep up with discussion on dedicated AoS boards.

Posters on ignore list: 33

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Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle






No, but I think it is going to limit growth of the game long term. I suspect the damage done now will color a lot of opinions going forward.

"Putting a statement in quotations makes it seem more legitimate."
--Bette R. Withname

Imagine three people with the same set of values but radically different emotional states, each of them believes their position is more valid than the other two, they all post using the same account, and your job is to make it coherent. 
   
Made in dk
Khorne Rhino Driver with Destroyer




 lord_blackfang wrote:
No, one can barely keep up with discussion on dedicated AoS boards.


This.

Also, AoS never really got a foothold on DAKKA it seemed to me. Go to TGA instead, if you want to read/discuss AoS. And as Blackfang said: Good luck keeping up with the forums there
   
Made in be
Regular Dakkanaut






I like the fact the that they changed it for this edition. That means free summoning could be over in 2,5 years for 3.0. (or when a new GHB drops) it is a nice way to change the meta.

   
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison




Bristol

 minisnatcher wrote:
I like the fact the that they changed it for this edition. That means free summoning could be over in 2,5 years for 3.0. (or when a new GHB drops) it is a nice way to change the meta.



Just flicking a rule on and off is not a good way to evolve the meta. The meta should evolve with the addition of more meaningful player choices. The choice to get free reinforcements or not is not a meaningful choice as if you can get the free reinforcements then you should do it, there is never a situation where free reinforcements would be a bad choice.

The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
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Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle






Thenord wrote:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
No, one can barely keep up with discussion on dedicated AoS boards.


This.

Also, AoS never really got a foothold on DAKKA it seemed to me. Go to TGA instead, if you want to read/discuss AoS. And as Blackfang said: Good luck keeping up with the forums there
TBF the TGA is positive-only, so any problems would not be discussed regardless of severity.

"Putting a statement in quotations makes it seem more legitimate."
--Bette R. Withname

Imagine three people with the same set of values but radically different emotional states, each of them believes their position is more valid than the other two, they all post using the same account, and your job is to make it coherent. 
   
Made in dk
Khorne Rhino Driver with Destroyer




 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Thenord wrote:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
No, one can barely keep up with discussion on dedicated AoS boards.


This.

Also, AoS never really got a foothold on DAKKA it seemed to me. Go to TGA instead, if you want to read/discuss AoS. And as Blackfang said: Good luck keeping up with the forums there
TBF the TGA is positive-only, so any problems would not be discussed regardless of severity.


PLEASE DO NOT CIRCUMVENT THE LANGUAGE FILTER - BrookM

Oh cmon.. Has PC culture taken hold in wargaming as well...

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/10/10 08:25:13


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




UK

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Thenord wrote:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
No, one can barely keep up with discussion on dedicated AoS boards.


This.

Also, AoS never really got a foothold on DAKKA it seemed to me. Go to TGA instead, if you want to read/discuss AoS. And as Blackfang said: Good luck keeping up with the forums there
TBF the TGA is positive-only, so any problems would not be discussed regardless of severity.


It's far from positive only, there are loads of critical things being said.
That said you could say that the community in general is more up-beat/positive in outlook and attitude than some other forum communities.
   
Made in us
Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos




They must have changed it then. A number of people were banned for criticizing the game on the TGA and were point blank told that the TGA wasn't the forum to criticize the game.

Did summoning ruin AOS? That will depend entirely on your perspective.

If you are a tournament player playing other tournament players, then no summoning won't have ruined the game for you because you are going to either be running a summons army yourself or you are going to be running an army that puts out a lot of mortal wounds so the summoning won't seem that big a deal.

If you are a competitive player not playing at tournaments but enjoying hard lists, then summoning won't have ruined AOS for you.

If you are a casual player that doesn't want to powerlist and your group also plays where they aren't spamming summoning or mortal wounds, then summoning won't have ruined AOS for you.

If you are a casual player that doesn't care much about winning or losing and just want to throw dice and push models, then no summoning won't have ruined AOS for you.

If you are a player that wants a good game and either doesn't want to be compelled to and/or does not have the models to run a high powered list that summons a lot or pushes a lot of mortal wounds, and you come up against someone that is summoning a ton of points (or pushing a lot of mortal wounds), then AOS won't be very fun for you.

The only things I've found that work are either players that know how to dial it back outside of the tournament hall (your mileage will vary here) or like what I do in campaigns, put a sudden death victory condition in if someone spams summoning against someone not pushing a ton of mortal wounds and not summoning to keep the game interesting. Sudden death victory conditions are a part of the actual game, its just that they are not part of matched play so get forgotten.

Like Ninth says above, I think that it definitely will hold back the game's overall health and growth because the direction of the game and what is viable to collect and field is very limited.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/10/09 11:57:00


GW points don't bring balance. They exist purely for structure. You can get more balance from no points than you do from GW points. You however can get no structure in your game without points. 
   
Made in fi
Fixture of Dakka





 minisnatcher wrote:
I like the fact the that they changed it for this edition. That means free summoning could be over in 2,5 years for 3.0. (or when a new GHB drops) it is a nice way to change the meta.



Uuuhh...Hopefully you don't think they could then on 4.0 switch free summoning back on? Because that, while would be typical for GW of changing things just to deliberately shift stuff that sells rather than aim for balance, would be HORRIBLE for balance.

You dont' do something to "change the meta". That's what you do when you are looking for just making money rather than balanced game. You change things because they are bad for game balance. Will remain to be seen will GW ever do that

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UK

auticus wrote:
They must have changed it then. A number of people were banned for criticizing the game on the TGA and were point blank told that the TGA wasn't the forum to criticize the game.


Was that in the early days of AoS? I can well see that happening on some forums focused on the game since its reception was - well - hostile to say the least from many old fantasy fans (and in all fairness GW didn't just drop the ball, they booted it out the window into the next street when it came to the general way they launched AoS*).
I've not seen any attitude like that from the staff now and critical views are aired all the time.


*With exception to the models, the models were and still are fantastic
   
Made in us
Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos




I was banned last summer (2017) for criticizing the game. I was told that the TGA was not a place to criticize the game, that there are plenty of other forums and facebook groups for that, the TGA was created for positive posts only.

The post in question that got me banned was from another member complaining about true line of sight and terrain not doing anything in the game and I posted an acknowledgement of what they were seeing was how it played and how I also strongly disliked that (a record of which can be found here on these forums), and when I got docked for it I confirmed with the moderator that posting in a negative thread that someone else had created was grounds for a banning. Moderator said yes... the TGA was not for negative posts... so there you have it. Looking back at it, I think a lot of it has to do with how riled up people would get when you talked about forests blocking line of sight. It would really set some people off and cause heated arguments because those players had built up shooting armies and didnt' want to see them be negatively impacted by terrain that blocked line of sight like in other games, and I think really what the moderation staff wanted was for there to not be heated arguments so get rid of topics and opinions that could cause those.

If they've changed that ridiculous stance, then good. If everything is all rainbows and happiness all the time, you don't get any change. I want to see the game be healthy and not just be a powerlisting exercise, thats why I post negative comments in the appropriate threads. Things like the current look out sir and forests blocking line of sight I have to think were a part of people in general complaining about the lack of terrain rules and how easy it is to snipe out characters in a ridiculous format that doesn't follow any form of literature or cinema. If they weren't allowed to complain or express frustration at that, those rules never would have been considered and put in by the design team. (and I got slagged plenty over the course of the last year or so here for talking about either of those topics)

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/10/09 11:39:37


GW points don't bring balance. They exist purely for structure. You can get more balance from no points than you do from GW points. You however can get no structure in your game without points. 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle






 Overread wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Thenord wrote:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
No, one can barely keep up with discussion on dedicated AoS boards.


This.

Also, AoS never really got a foothold on DAKKA it seemed to me. Go to TGA instead, if you want to read/discuss AoS. And as Blackfang said: Good luck keeping up with the forums there
TBF the TGA is positive-only, so any problems would not be discussed regardless of severity.


It's far from positive only, there are loads of critical things being said.
That said you could say that the community in general is more up-beat/positive in outlook and attitude than some other forum communities.
Admittedly my knowledge is is a bit dated, I probably should have added that caveat. Thank you for correcting me.

(by the way I have always liked your avatar)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/09 11:38:40


"Putting a statement in quotations makes it seem more legitimate."
--Bette R. Withname

Imagine three people with the same set of values but radically different emotional states, each of them believes their position is more valid than the other two, they all post using the same account, and your job is to make it coherent. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




UK

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 Overread wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Thenord wrote:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
No, one can barely keep up with discussion on dedicated AoS boards.


This.

Also, AoS never really got a foothold on DAKKA it seemed to me. Go to TGA instead, if you want to read/discuss AoS. And as Blackfang said: Good luck keeping up with the forums there
TBF the TGA is positive-only, so any problems would not be discussed regardless of severity.


It's far from positive only, there are loads of critical things being said.
That said you could say that the community in general is more up-beat/positive in outlook and attitude than some other forum communities.
Admittedly my knowledge is is a bit dated, I probably should have added that caveat. Thank you for correcting me.

(by the way I have always liked your avatar)


Archibald is the best Gryph-hound!
   
Made in us
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Home Base: Waconia, MN (Minneapolis)

I think if you use Dakka as a barometer then summoning ruined AoS. I think if you spend time anywhere else discussing AoS or playing then summoning has just added a new spectrum to the game.

Regarding TGA I can understand banning Auticus. Auticus, you don't just voice your opinion, you voice it over and over again. People get tired of having the same argument in several threads just here. Honestly, I don't post as much on here because of the 1-2 punch of Auticus and Ninth on almost everything.

TLDR: Summoning hasn't ruined the game in any measurable method.

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They Shall Know Fear - Adepticon 40k TT Champion (2012 & 2013) & 40k TT Best Sport (2014), 40k TT Best Tactician (2015 & 2016) 
   
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Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos




you don't just voice your opinion, you voice it over and over again


So by this logic, we should respond just once and then when the conversation comes up in the future, we should just not post about it again because that one time we already responded.

I mean I can see where you are coming from if I was incessantly posting / creating the same threads, but I rarely create a new thread, and if I do its topic varies wildly.

But to say its a valid bannable offense because we have a negative position on a topic that you disagree with and we post in threads started by others stating that opinion in those multiple threads (on topic of the thread) is bad, I don't know what to tell you.

There's also the fact that new people view topics all the time, and didn't read old topics that were already discussed.

Summoning hasn't ruined the game in any measurable method.


There have been many pointed lists about the negative impact summoning can have in the game that are quite measurable.

You may not hear any counter points anywhere else simply because they are banned, or the people that have negative experiences with it moved on to other games.

One thing that is a constant is there are no counter points to any of the negative bullet points to summoning other than "no its fine" and the people that say "no its fine" i find the gross majority of the time are tournament style players who are ok with lists that break the game, because thats the point of competitive play.

Or ultimately - if a player creates a list that isn't spamming mortal wounds or summoning, thats their fault and they should be doing that. Mortal wounds and summoning aren't broke if everyone else is doing it, they are only broke if a player makes bad decisions and doesn't min/max like everyone else.

summoning has just added a new spectrum to the game.

This is not a new spectrum to the game. Its been tried before at this level in the past and has always been very binary and polarizing. You either love it and embrace it, or you hate it for the imbalance it brings and you trash it and find something else.

If you could counter point some of the above and explain how 3000 points vs 2000 points is fine, and why its fine, I would be happy to consider your opinion.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/10/09 14:18:25


GW points don't bring balance. They exist purely for structure. You can get more balance from no points than you do from GW points. You however can get no structure in your game without points. 
   
Made in be
Regular Dakkanaut






tneva82 wrote:
 minisnatcher wrote:
I like the fact the that they changed it for this edition. That means free summoning could be over in 2,5 years for 3.0. (or when a new GHB drops) it is a nice way to change the meta.



Uuuhh...Hopefully you don't think they could then on 4.0 switch free summoning back on? Because that, while would be typical for GW of changing things just to deliberately shift stuff that sells rather than aim for balance, would be HORRIBLE for balance.

You dont' do something to "change the meta". That's what you do when you are looking for just making money rather than balanced game. You change things because they are bad for game balance. Will remain to be seen will GW ever do that

The days that I looked for balance in a gw game have long since passed.it is impossible to balance via pts. Imagine that in a chess game you could choose your setup by spending pts. How many would play the classical setup: 0
and no way the game would be fair. you would see after setup who will most likely win (if the players are evenly skilled) unless you have a mirror list.

Summoning paid almost killed some armies. and it feels very wrong for undead armies. The new summoning mechanics need tweaking but I do not see it as a bad thing.they may go in 3.0 but I do not see a problem with gw introducing a new mechanic in 4.0, or even in the next GHB.

And changing rules to change the meta. that is what happens in community thriving card games these days. like mtg, yu gi oh etc via banlists , formats, etc. to me it seems gw is going down that road. were list building is the same as deck building. there only problem at the moment to do this is that you cannot pick up an army and start the next day (it needs to be painted and assembled) so they need to go slower. then a game like magic. this would not be more expensive then playing one of those card games. A standard mtg deck easily costs 300 euros. and can be played for +-3 months so imagine keeping up for 3 years. It is good for bussiness. but also for the community as it gets new players on new releases some stop some come back after a while but we can clearly see those communities thriving world wide. People seem to think you should be able to buy an army and have a good army for the rest of your life. For that to happen the wall should have tumbled to the other side.
   
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Northridge, CA

From a Blades of Khorne player's perspective: I can use my Blood Points for summoning or other useful things depending on my army composition. I choose to go with summoning because I already have the models for Khorne Daemons and also have lots of Khorne Mortals. If I had different Khorne Mortals models I could play differently and still make it work through tactical Blood Point use, or different Khorne Daemons I could play differently as well. If I go out of my way to push summoning I can reach the coveted 1000 points per game extra Daemons, but they aren't by any means "free". My entire army is geared towards maximizing my summoning potential. I know there are other armies that can designate a smaller force in their army to summoning and still get by, but I haven't faced them yet. I'd like to and see what all the fuss is about.
   
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Skillful Swordmaster





TGA feels very competitive minded, it's why I rarely post there. Got a hello letter, if I'm still interested in being a part of the site. I guess they'd prefer to have more active members or just a clean database?

Either way, I feel lucky to not face optimized lists and the two other players more or less take what they like.
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




 Knight wrote:
TGA feels very competitive minded, it's why I rarely post there. Got a hello letter, if I'm still interested in being a part of the site. I guess they'd prefer to have more active members or just a clean database?

Either way, I feel lucky to not face optimized lists and the two other players more or less take what they like.

Really? I feel like TGA is, or at least was, very deliberate and open about all three ways of play, even if the listbuilding for Matched play always seems to draw a lot of discussion.
Actually TGA seemed like a sanctuary from all the negative complainy-pants, that is usually found on most forums, and especially the biter WHFB players looking to lash out. Maybe even TGA changes slowly over time, but I would say that their active moderation have helped keep it a constructive and pleasant environment for people that share the love of the game.
   
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Right behind you.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
No, but I think it is going to limit growth of the game long term. I suspect the damage done now will color a lot of opinions going forward.

Honestly I feel like a lot of "the damage done now" is just that it reinforces opinions already held.

The bigger thing causing damage is some of the pricing on things like the Daughters of Khaine and Fyreslayers.
   
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Been Around the Block




Haven't had any issues playing against summoning armies whatsoever and haven't thought of it as being overpowered.

I play Death as well and find the restrictions on it to be pretty good. Speaking about Death in particular, it's a great string in my bow but the restrictions mean I'll only be bringing back 1 destroyed unit per game. No doubt it's powerful but it's not game breaking.
   
Made in si
Skillful Swordmaster





Spiky Norman wrote:

Really? I feel like TGA is, or at least was, very deliberate and open about all three ways of play, even if the listbuilding for Matched play always seems to draw a lot of discussion.
Actually TGA seemed like a sanctuary from all the negative complainy-pants, that is usually found on most forums, and especially the biter WHFB players looking to lash out. Maybe even TGA changes slowly over time, but I would say that their active moderation have helped keep it a constructive and pleasant environment for people that share the love of the game.


Browsing the WIP and other blogs are what mostly attracts me on the site, it's also why I like to browse Reddit AoS, it's mostly WIP and showcases. It's also nice that the link to new YT battle reports is posted there. The general TGA discussions seem to be about what works and what doesn't at a competitive level or how to fix a unit (looking at mostly Order), seems that a fair number of tournament posters also post there so it's not uncommon to see people asking for their lists or thoughts.

To be honest, re-rolling ones and 2+ tough channels have become my favorite source of online AoS entertainment.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




UK

Honestly most forums talk about competitive play because it gives a baseline to work from. There was a TGA thread all about what narrative play was and the general upshot was that it was a huge number of different things to different people. Narrative and Open play have relaxed rules and thus are hard to talk about in a general sense because each game can be totally different. So its no shock to me that matched play and balance is the general focus of online discussions.

There has been a bigger push, mostly on the sportsmanship scores, for tournaments on TGA, but that's only been in the last week or two.

   
Made in us
Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos




Matched play / tournament play has historically since the dawn of the internet been what 95% of internet forums and social media groups discuss.

GW points don't bring balance. They exist purely for structure. You can get more balance from no points than you do from GW points. You however can get no structure in your game without points. 
   
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Home Base: Waconia, MN (Minneapolis)

@Auticus

I said I could see why they'd ban YOU specifically. It isn't that you have a negative opinion or post it but that you feel the need to reply to all posts and post the same things. What that means is that, like now with summoning or game enjoyment, we see you posting about your opinion on summoning, in 4 different threads now saying the same thing. People essentially can't have a conversation without your personal soapbox if it's even related by finger nails.

As for summoning ruining the game you get a bit hyperbolic so arguing with you has proved pointless. EVERY list is summoning 1k and not suffering for it in the building phase in the least and there are no counters to it to slow it down period. I've heard people discuss summoning but not one has voiced that it's ruining the game. And yes, some people that feel that way may have moved on to other games but that doesn't mean it's broken, just that they felt it was.

Numbers don't currently bear out that it's broken at a competitive level. At the entry or narrative level it can probably feel that way because of lack of knowledge/systems in play. Or if you have people playing at different levels. It's a social game and balance is never going to be perfect to where you can take whatever you want and be fine. Not even KoW, renowned for it's balance, does that.

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we see you posting about your opinion on summoning, in 4 different threads now saying the same thing. People essentially can't have a conversation without your personal soapbox if it's even related by finger nails.


I guess I don't see the point of a forum if we're supposed to avoid threads that others create simply because there are similar threads other others created that you already responded in.

There are several threads, none of which were created by me, that talk about summoning and ask how we feel about it or if they ruined the game. The beastmen thread was discussing summoning because its a part of their mechanic.

EVERY list is summoning 1k and not suffering for it in the building phase in the least and there are no counters to it to slow it down period.


Well if you could give examples of armies summoning 1k and not suffering for in the building phase that would be illuminating to me.

There are for the most part no counters other than kill the caster. If you have other counters, feel free to post them.

The worst offenders all DO summon roughly 1000 points per game. Thats not hyperbolic. Those are the builds that I'm discussing that are breaking the game unless you are following suit.

Numbers don't currently bear out that it's broken at a competitive level.


I state nearly every time that its likely not broken at the competitive level because at that level everyone is breaking the game, so no one is breaking the game. The entire fulcrum point of this discussion being a useless one is centered around competitive players not seeing it as a big deal because in their swimming pool everyone is doing it. We lose the context of reality in that not everyone is or wants to be a competitive min/max player.

If your goal is that everyone be a min/max powerlister then certainly I can see why removing the people that don't want to do that would be seen as a positive thing however.

At the entry or narrative level it can probably feel that way because of lack of knowledge/systems in play. Or if you have people playing at different levels.


You have different people playing at different levels. Thats the entire crux of the olde crusade here. That GW gave an abusable system that if you don't abuse, you shouldn't bother playing.

It's a social game and balance is never going to be perfect to where you can take whatever you want and be fine. Not even KoW, renowned for it's balance, does that.


I've been playing KoW for a little while now and I've yet to encounter this type of thing. Not once. I've even actively looked for it, asked about it, tried finding a way to produce it.

Its most definitely not razor balanced but there are no features that let you show up with a bonus 1000 points and your opponent just takes it on the chin.

As far as I'm aware there aren't even ways to summon free points in KoW because they know how unbalancing and auto-take that is.

So while there are definitely balance issues in every game, there aren't this drastic of balance issues and/or auto-takes in every game to the point of Sigmar... which is you should always max out on your summoning, and barring that you should max out on your mortal wounds.

The people that all say its ok usually follow up with "and I play a summoning army and don't feel that its that bad" or "and I play this list that summons 800 - 1000 points but I don't feel that its that bad" or "and I play in tournaments and have a tournament level army myself".

so reword the question better: "Is a game where I'm not summoning or pushing a lot of mortal wounds going to be one-sided or not much fun if my opponent is summoning northwards of 500 or 600 points?"

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/10/09 18:50:59


GW points don't bring balance. They exist purely for structure. You can get more balance from no points than you do from GW points. You however can get no structure in your game without points. 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle






Don't bother with him Auticus, Hulk has demonstrated repeatedly that he does not understand the subject matter and refuses to learn.

To be clear this is the guy who said at the launch of AoS 2nd that my tournament army -which he has never played, played against, or even read a battle report of- was going to do badly (it does fine btw). He basically just pulled assumptions out of nowhere and recited them as truth. This is the guy who said a unit was complete trash on one page and literally the next page of the thread said it was good in a casual setting and merely sub-par at tournaments. I could go on, but the point is he does not care for good-faith discussion. He is even dragging out the 'but summoning lists have downsides which compensate!' argument that you and others have debunked at least a dozen times.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/09 19:08:05


"Putting a statement in quotations makes it seem more legitimate."
--Bette R. Withname

Imagine three people with the same set of values but radically different emotional states, each of them believes their position is more valid than the other two, they all post using the same account, and your job is to make it coherent. 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




How can summoning be fixed? Units that can summon should cost more?

Or how about say a 1000 point game, if you want to summon 250 points, you make a 750 point list and can summon as much as you want. This way you start at 750 points and can go up to 1250? Or say start at 500 points in a 1000 point game, and summon up to 1500 points then.

This way you are at a disadvantage in the beginning of the game, have to get your summons out and end game can be more powerful. So risk vs reward. Right now it seems there is no risk just reward.

So just like being a mage in D&D and video games, the mage starts off weak but can be the most powerful unit in the game later.

I don't know, just trying to throw it out to see what GW has is the best solution or not.

Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.

Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?

Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".  
   
 
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