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Which codex is better? I have a Scythes of the emperor army and I have built and painted them in a way which they could be fielded as either codex, they are designed primarily for dethwatch but at some point I'll expand im sure and will want to just them as normal marines.

Not that I'm competitive at all but I was wondering, if people had the choice, which codex is considered more powerful?

CA will probably change a lot.

For right now, you're probably best off as codex SM with Guilliman, playing them as keyword <Ultramarines>. Bonus points since they're actually an Ultramarines successor so it's not even particularly unfluffy to do so.

Pre chapter approved 2018, Deathwatch hands down

Deathwatch gain special issue ammo, which let's your bolter marines actually kill stuff

I don't know if it matters to you at all, but Primaris infantry are worlds better in Deathwatch as well. The deathwatch mixed squad rules fix most of what is wrong with them and unlike regular Marines they don't lose any weapon options doing it.

For ultra-competitive games? SM hands down. DW aren't placing high at all.

For run of the mill games at your FLGS? Deathwatch are probably killin' it under semi-decent pilots.

DW has the same problem most MEQ bodies have had for a long time. No matter how high I raise a unit's offensive output T4 3+ even with two wounds just doesn't matter with how lethal the game is now a day.

Lemondish wrote:
For ultra-competitive games? SM hands down. DW aren't placing high at all.

For run of the mill games at your FLGS? Deathwatch are probably killin' it under semi-decent pilots.

This is a fair point. The only SM list I'd consider is a Guilliman list (with a number of different possible units providing firepower), but some people do look at Guilliman lists and complain about how competitive they are. Weirdly enough they don't do the same to many other competitive lists though, I guess it just feels bad to play against Guilliman.

Deathwatch is better. Neither is super competitive

Nature's Minister wrote:
Deathwatch is better. Neither is super competitive

Deathwatch dreams about playing at the top tables, let alone ranking top 10 at a GT. Still hasn't happened for them. Marines have done it recently. Granted, it's a very specific MW fishing list propped up further by Guilliman, but the variations on it have been both interesting and successful.

Deathwatch lack efficient anti-tank, which is a damn tragedy given they actually have all the tools, they're just overcosted to hell and back. Deathwatch also lacks one of the best units in all of Marinedom - scouts.

I think Deathwatch are significantly more fun, and their units are generally more effective and more flexible than their marine counterparts - but they sure pay for it in the downsides. Just like all elite armies of 1 wound infantry, they get punished heavily for making mistakes. I think that makes them more fun, and unlike their psychic brothers, they actually do feel like marines+1.

But don't mistake any of that for success on the table - DW don't have the tools to go mono yet, and SM do (and have been successful at it). Gotta unfortunately betray my fave army and go with Marines for this question.

Deathwatch have been popping up more lately though. That's for a reason.

Thanks for the replies, the two concerns I have about my Deathwatch is anti tank and low body count.

I want to have a playable force so was thinking of putting in a normal marine detachment along side my 1750 detachment of Deathwatch for normal games. The vanilla marines would basically be 3 squads of scouts to sit on objectives and provide some extra manpower. I think this would be more fluffy than taking a guard detachment.

Since my marines are supposed to be first company which is why they count as death watch it makes sense to have a small patrol of 10th company scouts with them.

SM are better, assuming a few caveats (mainly that your army includes Guilliman) and are also the better soup candidate since they get Scouts. If you're not using Guilliman and actually want your regular dudes to kill something then Deathwatch are superior. The biggest problem with Deathwatch is the lack of anti-tank.

The best Space Marine list is better than the best Deathwatch list, but a casual Deathwatch list will generally see more success in casual formats than a casual Space Marine list.

Deathwatch can deepstrike drednaughts, you can couple intercessors with inceptors, meaning you can shield your extremely killy plasma wielding death machines with rather cheap 2 wound models that suddenly become T5 and wield them as a Troop choice

Deathwatch is hands down the superior choice

 Arachnofiend wrote:
The best Space Marine list is better than the best Deathwatch list, but a casual Deathwatch list will generally see more success in casual formats than a casual Space Marine list.

Yes, If you don't want to play GUilliman camping a parking lot but a list with actual marines doing things, then Deathwatch is better. If you play Primaris, it is ludicrously better. Then again, all this could change in CA anyway.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
The best Space Marine list is better than the best Deathwatch list, but a casual Deathwatch list will generally see more success in casual formats than a casual Space Marine list.

basically this. Ultramarines have a build or two capable of taking top tables, but so much junk elsewhere. If you just want to take whatever from a dex Deathwatch will go further

Rogerio134134 wrote:
Thanks for the replies, the two concerns I have about my Deathwatch is anti tank and low body count.

I want to have a playable force so was thinking of putting in a normal marine detachment along side my 1750 detachment of Deathwatch for normal games. The vanilla marines would basically be 3 squads of scouts to sit on objectives and provide some extra manpower. I think this would be more fluffy than taking a guard detachment.

Since my marines are supposed to be first company which is why they count as death watch it makes sense to have a small patrol of 10th company scouts with them.

That detachment has been a common mainstay for DW armies lately. I would suggest going DA to add in a Librarian - triLib builds are common and powerful.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
The best Space Marine list is better than the best Deathwatch list, but a casual Deathwatch list will generally see more success in casual formats than a casual Space Marine list.

basically this. Ultramarines have a build or two capable of taking top tables, but so much junk elsewhere. If you just want to take whatever from a dex Deathwatch will go further

And things tilt even more in favor of the boys in black once you bring allies into the equation.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
The best Space Marine list is better than the best Deathwatch list, but a casual Deathwatch list will generally see more success in casual formats than a casual Space Marine list.

basically this. Ultramarines have a build or two capable of taking top tables, but so much junk elsewhere. If you just want to take whatever from a dex Deathwatch will go further

DW also has a lot of junk. It's just that it's an army built on their two ultra customizable troops options, which makes even casual lists look good. Granted, there's like zero realistic options for Vets - storm bolters or bust.

In any case, I think the data speaks for itself on which is more competitive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
The best Space Marine list is better than the best Deathwatch list, but a casual Deathwatch list will generally see more success in casual formats than a casual Space Marine list.

basically this. Ultramarines have a build or two capable of taking top tables, but so much junk elsewhere. If you just want to take whatever from a dex Deathwatch will go further

And things tilt even more in favor of the boys in black once you bring allies into the equation.

That's because DW needs allies - they lack basic components to compete without them.

But even with allies, DW aren't lighting up the tournament world.

I'd love for them to be some hidden gem, but they just lack one too many necessary roles.

CA could change everything, thing.

I've felt that more than most forces GK and Deathwatch got screwed by the Patrol detachment getting knocked down to no CP.

It was the perfect size for fielding Deathwatch and Gk's most efficiently IMHO.

Ven Dreads with Twin las/ML guarded by a Watch Captain with Dominus Aegis provides reasonable AT (yeah, most dreads are overpriced, I get that). My current list has 2 of them plus a KT with stalkers/HB/ML for backfield.

My advice would be to wait or just say screw waiting and start Imperial gaurd.

Well, I think its more fun to play Deathwatch than the marine-blue tin cans.

Lemondish wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
The best Space Marine list is better than the best Deathwatch list, but a casual Deathwatch list will generally see more success in casual formats than a casual Space Marine list.

basically this. Ultramarines have a build or two capable of taking top tables, but so much junk elsewhere. If you just want to take whatever from a dex Deathwatch will go further

DW also has a lot of junk. It's just that it's an army built on their two ultra customizable troops options, which makes even casual lists look good. Granted, there's like zero realistic options for Vets - storm bolters or bust.

In any case, I think the data speaks for itself on which is more competitive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
The best Space Marine list is better than the best Deathwatch list, but a casual Deathwatch list will generally see more success in casual formats than a casual Space Marine list.

basically this. Ultramarines have a build or two capable of taking top tables, but so much junk elsewhere. If you just want to take whatever from a dex Deathwatch will go further

And things tilt even more in favor of the boys in black once you bring allies into the equation.

That's because DW needs allies - they lack basic components to compete without them.

But even with allies, DW aren't lighting up the tournament world.

I'd love for them to be some hidden gem, but they just lack one too many necessary roles.

CA could change everything, thing.

Except Deathwatch are showing up more and more, and for good reason. Marine winning lists are going down.

Also like you're one to talk about competitive. You told people Melta was good in the Deathwatch thread. No wonder you have no success with them.

Lol. Melta.

I have a squad that is all Melta/chainsword. It's a fun unit, and totally wrecks face if it's ignored. The problem is.... It's not ignored usually. Then they fold like paper. However, that 10% chance you can deepstrike them in in an area they won't get torn to pieces, yet still have a target rich environment is hilarious to watch.

DW brother, all the way. They're actually fun.

It's either that or spend your time larping as a parking attendent in Big Bobby G's Drive-In.

Lemondish wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
The best Space Marine list is better than the best Deathwatch list, but a casual Deathwatch list will generally see more success in casual formats than a casual Space Marine list.

basically this. Ultramarines have a build or two capable of taking top tables, but so much junk elsewhere. If you just want to take whatever from a dex Deathwatch will go further

DW also has a lot of junk. It's just that it's an army built on their two ultra customizable troops options, which makes even casual lists look good. Granted, there's like zero realistic options for Vets - storm bolters or bust.

In any case, I think the data speaks for itself on which is more competitive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
The best Space Marine list is better than the best Deathwatch list, but a casual Deathwatch list will generally see more success in casual formats than a casual Space Marine list.

basically this. Ultramarines have a build or two capable of taking top tables, but so much junk elsewhere. If you just want to take whatever from a dex Deathwatch will go further

And things tilt even more in favor of the boys in black once you bring allies into the equation.

That's because DW needs allies - they lack basic components to compete without them.

But even with allies, DW aren't lighting up the tournament world.

I'd love for them to be some hidden gem, but they just lack one too many necessary roles.

CA could change everything, thing.

every codex has a lot of junk. Deathwatch has a much more consistent level of power than the SM dex.

Yeah, remove Roboute and you literally only have Scouts.

I did wish I had access to Ancients but oh well

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah, remove Roboute and you literally only have Scouts.

I did wish I had access to Ancients but oh well

Cherub Devs are pretty dope too.

nothing else is jumping out at me

Leviathan Dread maybe