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Okay, lets talk EPIC.

This can range from talking about its beginnings, past, present and future.

We know Games Workshop have no current plans to bring Epic 40K or "Space Marine" back, but the tabletop community have kept classic games alive independently of the companies that made them. Sometimes a new game system will come along that allows redundant miniatures to take to the field of battle once again( Horizon Wars by Osprey Wargames).

Anyway, lets get cracking!

SG seems to have become a victim of there own success. Once/if they get more resources I'm sure they will start looking at an Epic reboot. Although I'd imagine it would be several years away at best.

Edit - adding non Titan and IK super heavy units to AT could be a way for SG to test the waters. Squadrons of Baneblade and Fellblade variants would be a cool alternative to Knight lances.

I agree with the Tank as a possible expansion for AT.

When starting out with Horizon Wars, my first force was 3 Questoris Knights and two "resistance" hannibal tanks from DropZone. They look and play quite well together.
The troops in Epic were fiddly but the tanks were the highlight of the Epic game systems.

I personally feel heavy tanks and knights are a little too big for games of 40K, and that goes for armies with more than four squads of troops. At that point one needs to ditch the dinning room table and start using the living room floor.
40K makes sense if we have dreadnoughts, bikes and perhaps troop carriers such as the rhino.

Infantry in Adeptus Titanicus doesn't quite make sense in a game where the focus is on Talos-sized mechs. The Questoris are about as small as they could go with the system.

There are third parties making cool models that can be used as proxies. Not exact copies, but you can get away with it. The background suggests that the Imperium uses many different Patterns and Mk's of vehicles.

 Malika2 wrote:
There are third parties making cool models that can be used as proxies. Not exact copies, but you can get away with it. The background suggests that the Imperium uses many different Patterns and Mk's of vehicles.

Yeah, one of them isnt too far off the Reaver to be fair...I forget the company, though.

Ive played all the iterations of epic, and still play epic Armageddon.

In the mid 90s epic space marine was my main game, thoroughly enjoyable. I cannot see a scenario where current GW/FW are able to bring that game back to how it was then. There were literally dozens of units and models spread across multiple factions.

I do think in time we will see tanks introduced to AT, but I wouldn't hold your breath.

Epic and BFG were my favourite games to be honest, to this day I am still surprised how good they are and that they came out of GW, BFG especially, yes it had its balance issues (bloody necrons) but it always felt "right", yes the the Nercrons were an absolute nightmare to fight but that was "right" if you know what i mean.

I absolutely love Epic. It was one of my first wargaming experiences back in the early 90s (the Space Marine, or 2nd edition of the game as it was at the time).

My friends and I used to have truly 'epic' games played over the course of a weekend: 20,000+ pts a side, which usually equated to a 7-8 titans a side, entire infantry, artillery and tank companies, with a huge 'kursk' type city area in the centre of a 12ft wide table that always turned into a blood-bath.

I don't think I have ever come close to anything on that scale in the 25 years since that I've been wargaming.

And now many years later I've been delighted to find that there is still an international community of Epic games players, lots of great miniatures being made by companies like Vanguard and of course still loads of great deals to be had on eBay. Of course the latest versions of the rules, be it Epic Armageddon or 'Epic Gold', are absolutely razor-tight through years of playtesting but also maintain a lot of the freedom and cool miniature lines that have come out over the years; You want to play Squats vs. Pre-Heresy Crusades? Easy to do.

GW's new AT release looks to have totally rekindled interest in the scale, and rightly so with some of the miniatures and a fun game by all accounts.

I don't think GW will re-release Epic as it would just be too many lines of miniatures, and has been pointed out in the other AT thread the SG section of GW doesn't have the resources to pull this off, at least in any meaningful way. But, hopefully it will pull a few more people onto the existing versions of the game, playing Epic again and help to grow the community.

Some links in my signature if anyone wants to do some more reading, or is a new starter (or old returnee) getting into, what I think, is one of the best games ever released by GW.

Epic is my favorite GW game, regardless of the rule set. (I started in Epic 40k, so it was only uphill from there!)

Epic Armageddon was my favorite of the rulesets, but if they were to revisit the scale I wouldn't be terribly concerned with the rules (There's a lot of options at this point) as much as the miniatures. Even if it were only a Horus Heresy game, with nothing but power armored marines going at it, can you imagine how nice they could make plastic 6mm marines now? Or, if we could get a modern Epic Armageddon, imagine how nice they could make ork boyz look now...

As I said in another thread though, plastic Gargants in the Adeptus Titanicus scale is now my end-all of the hobby. If that becomes a thing, I will have the last thing I need/want from GW, and they can get back to sculpting another Gandalf or Primaris Lieutenant and I'll never begrudge them again.

The unfairly-maligned Epic 40,000 is one of the best sets of rules (along with the Lord of the Rings rules) that GW put out, but it was too out of step with what the existing players wanted (rather like the jump from 40k 2nd ed to 3rd, or WFB 8th to AoS). Epic Armageddon is a worthy successor, but sometimes I miss the simplicity of Epic 40,000 and its scaled-out viewpoint.

If you want a 40k army to play like it's described in the background, play Epic Armageddon. It all just works. Space Marines move rapidly across the battlefield overwhelming local points of resistance with firepower before closing in to assault and capture objectives, while Imperial Guard are solid in defence and can bring a massive amount of armoured and artillery firepower. I've less experience with the subsequent unofficial rules; the ones I've looked at seem OK, although they don't really feel like the 40k forces in some ways.

I agree actually, think the Epic 40,000 was a pretty good ruleset (although it's probably the one I have played the least of the three).

I would say Armageddon is the best all-round set, doing things like cross-fire and the firefights add a real tactical element. It seems to be the most popular with existing communities, so there are a lot more bespoke rules sets out there and obviously easier to get games if tournaments and events are your thing.

But I do have a soft spot for the older Epic Space Marine set, and like you say as it's a bit more straightforward think it works better for faster play and humungous epic, Epic mega-battles.

We already have a discussion about this in the AT rumor thread.

 Pacific wrote:
I agree actually, think the Epic 40,000 was a pretty good ruleset (although it's probably the one I have played the least of the three).

I would say Armageddon is the best all-round set, doing things like cross-fire and the firefights add a real tactical element. It seems to be the most popular with existing communities, so there are a lot more bespoke rules sets out there and obviously easier to get games if tournaments and events are your thing.

But I do have a soft spot for the older Epic Space Marine set, and like you say as it's a bit more straightforward think it works better for faster play and humungous epic, Epic mega-battles.

I still have a soft spot for the old 'card system'!

But at this point, IF GW brings it back, I'll be there - almost regardless of the system.

Because you know the models will be ace!

Yes I thought the card system actually worked pretty well! Was nice laying out the various companies and connecting detachments to them.

It would have been good if some of the online army builder software did this, rather than just lines of text and a points value - a bit more of a Flames of War type feel to it.

One of the discussions in the AT thread was about the number of lines of miniatures - to continue that topic here, this is a pic from a White Dwarf battle report from 2nd edition Space Marine, I think a fairly average sized army (although can't remember the exact value - if it was 500pts for a Reaver, which I seem to remember for some reason, maybe 3 or 4k?)

If you're discounting the infantry/cavalry (which presumably would be released on one plastic sprue, if it were released by GW and not FW), I count 9 different lines in just this one shot. Which is one sub-section of just one army. Can you imagine that starting to creep over the walls of a GW store, which is already struggling for space? And the fact that most of this would have to be resculpted.

Blood Bowl and to an extent Necromunda don't need that many lines/sprues to be able to get the game up and running. Epic was a whole third main game alongside WHFB and 40k (I would say it actually overtook 40k as a main line towards the end of the Rogue Trader era, you certainly saw a lot more of it being played). So that's why I don't think it will happen, I think most of the people calling out for a re-launch of Epic don't realise how much of a commitment it would take from GW.

PS - check out the cute little Thunderhawks

 Fajita Fan wrote:
We already have a discussion about this in the AT rumor thread.

Yes, but we can talk about Epic here without being told off. Unless, of course, you misbehave in which case you will be over my knee and introduced to my slipper...

I'm just mucking around...

Space Marine was fantastic. I loved the cards for army composition and that you had to put down order markers for all your units at the start of the turn.

I still play lots of Epic, but it's Epic Armageddon nowadays.
It is very playable, has lots of movement and the victory conditions are great. There is good internet community supporting the game.

Model wise there is ebay with a surprising number of attic-finds and there are some third parties who offer nice proxies and I'm making my own models - strictly for my own use - so no problems at that front.

I used to play "Space Marine" back in the day, but sadly due to moving around so often, almost my entire GW collection was trashed. Lets just say I miss my Eldar and Tyranid 40K armies...

Osprey was my return to tabletop gaming and Horizon Wars was part of that. The rules - for better and worse - are simplified, but its at least fun and brings back memories of many afternoons where my Eldar armies would meet the might of my Brother's Imperial forces led by that awesome Warlord Titan. Thankfully, we still get together for gaming sessions( We still play Final Fight after all these years, giving the Mad Gear Gang never-ending grief ) and HW is one of our favorites using just 6 AT Knights and some house rules.

Its great to see GW Epic being supported by the community and now with Titanicus, I do see Epic returning sometime in the future. I doubt that GW would spend money on a new scale of model, only to be supported by a single game. At the very least the Knights themselves seem to suggest their own game - whether that would be a £40 box game or its own system to accompany AT. Wishful thinking, but I'd love to see GW and Osprey work on such a game.

Being selfish I hope GW adds Armigers to the Titanicus range. They would go well in my games of HW!

 Pacific wrote:
I agree actually, think the Epic 40,000 was a pretty good ruleset (although it's probably the one I have played the least of the three).

I would say Armageddon is the best all-round set, doing things like cross-fire and the firefights add a real tactical element. It seems to be the most popular with existing communities, so there are a lot more bespoke rules sets out there and obviously easier to get games if tournaments and events are your thing.

But I do have a soft spot for the older Epic Space Marine set, and like you say as it's a bit more straightforward think it works better for faster play and humungous epic, Epic mega-battles.

IIRC, Epic 40,000 had a crossfire rule (or one was added in the Journal or the Firefight magazine). I also liked the freeform nature of designing detachments - I had one rather useless detachment that was my 40k army! The intention was, I think, that you made up a load of different detachments in advance then just chose the ones you needed for a given battle. So it's the same as the army card idea from 2nd edition, just that you get to define the cards to suit your collection.

I played a lot of 2nd edition Epic, but the orders system and the close assault rules always made it clunky and annoying. I used to think that a battery of three Deathstrike missiles with barrage warheads bringing down a Phantom titan was the best thing ever, but then I played Epic Armageddon properly; a Space Marine tactical detachment suppresses a renegade Imperial Guard infantry detachment before Assault marines storm the building and butcher the lot of them. That's exactly how it should work, and it's marvellous. Also marvellous (but not for me as the Marine player) was the fire from the Reaver titan accompanying the Guard scything down the Devastators on the opposite hill.

I don't suppose anyone still has their xenos titans? The Phantom and the Gargants were pretty snazzy.

I've got 6-8 "Stompas",
2 Slasha Gargants
2 Mech Gargants
1 Gargant

I've been trying for 9-10 years to get a group in New Orleans to try Epic again

Like the others, it has always been my favorite scale and game

Can't wait to see how the new guys (Titans) look next to the old guys!

I've got most of a Snappa Gargant. The base and feet are missing, as is part of the arms. And I can't remember whether I still have the jaws. And I've got a Slasha Gargant. IIRC, that one's intact aside from the missing base. I might also still have a lone epic metal daemonette that was included in a blister of some other Epic item (though I don't remember what). That was one nice oddity about the early Epic stuff. You'd buy a blister for Epic, and there'd be a tiny random figure included in the packaging. Most of the time you couldn't use them by themselves (though the space marine mole mortar that I used to have might have been an exception). But they were nice to have nonetheless.

The Gargant (2nd edition Great Gargant especially) is one of those things that are always super expensive when they come up on eBay. I think it's rare you'll see one sell for less than £40-50.

Slashers and mekboy versions sometimes go for less, as does the (I think) inferior later sculpt.

Mega-Gargants from the Titan Legions boxset (the one in spoilers below) seems to be the cheapest, I've seen those go for £10-15 or so (less if you're prepared to do some paint removal). I guess they must have sold quite a few of those sets.



A nice new alternative is from Nuclear Shrimp games. I haven't seen one in person but have been told that they're about the same size as the Mega Gargants. Thought it would be quite cool to sit one of these on big tracks to make its movement seem a bit more plausible.
https://ns-games.com/product/orc-titan-6mm-scale/

Pacific - That guy looks great!
I agree with track though... I've been wanting to the same for a while
maybe cut the top half of a plastic battlewagon off, and make a "skate" for the foot?
(may have to try this for the 40k Orkanaught)

I generally tend to only play epic these days (NetEPIC rules)
Lost a great deal of interest in AoS, 40k and 30k as it just got boring.

Epic I can happily play endlessly.
Was just a shame that the scale got ramped up for AT as the miniatures are actually some of the best made to date IMO.
However, this hasn't stopped me grabbing an AT army to tinker with.

Only downside to eBay is the scalpers.
More specifically, one woman's shop.
She has a habit of buying up certain units from eBay to create a shortage, then vastly ramping up the price while buying any cheaper models that pop up.
For example, Epic zoanthropes sell between £10-12 per 3, as do the newer carnifex models.
She went on rampage clearing them from eBay, only to relist them at £15 per model lol.
The sad thing was, desperate people were paying that.

As a whole though, you can pick up an epic army fairly cheap of you hold off and wait on auctions.
I'm currently building my 3rd squat termite company, which requires 10 termites.
Currently they are in a short supply so I'm having to wait, not paying £10 per one lol.

Alternatives are available for the most part however.
Between vanguard, onslaught and trolls under the bridge, almost every range is covered well.

I'd also highly recommend the NetEPIC rules too as they are free and work seamlessly.

The AT miniatures fit in fine with the Epic infantry and vehicles, IMO (as long as you don't try to include new titan miniatures alongside older ones).

As for alien titans, I've got five original Phantoms/Warlocks, two new and one original Revenant, a new Great Gargant, two mega-gargants, two Heirophants, two Heirodules and a Banelord.

Definitely agree, think the new Titan scale actually works better with the 6mm Epic ranges.

Jackal90 wrote:

Only downside to eBay is the scalpers.
More specifically, one woman's shop.
She has a habit of buying up certain units from eBay to create a shortage, then vastly ramping up the price while buying any cheaper models that pop up.
For example, Epic zoanthropes sell between £10-12 per 3, as do the newer carnifex models.
She went on rampage clearing them from eBay, only to relist them at £15 per model lol.
The sad thing was, desperate people were paying that.

My favourite is the listing of the single Ork Tinbot (listed under 'Gargants') which was going for about £12. The miniature looks massive in the zoomed-in photo, but is actually about 1cm tall...
Obviously no-one was taken in though as I think the listing must have been on there for over a year.

What I will say though is the new miniatures from Vanguard etc. have helped push down the prices of the old discontinued GW ranges. If you're not willing to try the new 3rd party ranges, a lot of the originals are more affordable now. Especially if you're willing to wait for parent-attic-cleanout-miniature-piles (have got some ridiculously good stuff for relatively little money).

Although I was fond of that original Warlord Titan I like the new range.

How do you all feel about the new Titans in Adeptus Titanicus? Do they fit in with your existing legacy armies?

SamusDrake wrote:
I don't suppose anyone still has their xenos titans? The Phantom and the Gargants were pretty snazzy.

I still have quite a few. Epic was my first love in wargaming, Titan Legions was my first big box, a little bit before that I bought various epic knights at a gaming convention, back then they were priced on their weight in metal.

Of the Orks, I have 5 mega-gargants, 6 great gargants, 2 gargants and 10 stompas (with some little conversions).

Of the Eldar, I have 8 Phantom Mk I (the original design, my absolute favourite), 1 Phantom Mk II (ugly as hell imho), 2 Warlocks (love them), 9 Revenants Mk I (again, the original design, my absolute favourite), 3 Revenants Mk II (the worst design imho), and 2 Revenants Mk III (still in their box, untouched, nice design).

Add to this 1 hierophant and 3 hierodule on the Tyranids side.

And that is it for Xenos titans.

On the Chaos side, I have 2 Banelords, I really love them, hope to see them come back into AT, preferably in a very reminiscent design.

The bulk of my epic forces are Imperials. Titans alone, I have 12 warhounds (love their design), 15 reavers, 12 Warlords Mk I "Beetleback", 1 Warlord Mk II "Milkfloat", 1 Warlord Mk III, and 4 Imperator Titans (one still on sprue). And tons of knights, both plastic and metal.

Got most of them at the time Epic was discontinued and remaining stocks were sold for a fraction of the original retail price. Also got some on eBay a long time ago.

I took time to make an inventory of my models in excel a couple of months ago, it is frightening ... I guess I am not alone in the same situation (and probably not the one with the biggest collection neither).

Why would they need to bring EPIC back, 40k is already EPIC now and has been for the last 3 editions.

Titans come in codecies now.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Why would they need to bring EPIC back, 40k is already EPIC now and has been for the last 3 editions.

Titans come in codecies now.

I see what you did there!

But seriously, I get the feeling that during the time I've been away from the hobby( it was at least a decade ) that someone at GW took over and tried to make regular 40K a "one-size-fits-all" product. I honestly cannot believe that Titans are now actually a thing in 28mm scale...