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When a single model unit (Guilliman for eg.) is killed and has an ability that removes them from the table but allows them to be setup at the end of the phase.

Do you need to set aside reinforcement points for that situation? (so 400+400 for RG)

looking around I can only see a few iterations of this rule ... same for the Phylactery Relic for Necrons, bears the same wording as does the Reanimation Stratagem to bring back other UNIQUE named characters (Just not C'tan or Trazyn)

is this in an FAQ I missed where this avoids the summoning rules?

This same type of question keeps popping up and you could read the answer in any of them.



If the resurrection of a unit is from a unit ability (i.e., Spore launcher, resurrection protocols, Armor of xxx) then it costs no reinforcement points.


If the creation of a new unit through a strat or through a summoning, it costs reinforcement points.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
This same type of question keeps popping up and you could read the answer in any of them.



If the resurrection of a unit is from a unit ability (i.e., Spore launcher, resurrection protocols, Armor of xxx) then it costs no reinforcement points.


If the creation of a new unit through a strat or through a summoning, it costs reinforcement points.

Not strictly true. Adding models to a unit doesn't cost points but making new units does. Replacing slain models does not cost points

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
This same type of question keeps popping up and you could read the answer in any of them.



If the resurrection of a unit is from a unit ability (i.e., Spore launcher, resurrection protocols, Armor of xxx) then it costs no reinforcement points.


If the creation of a new unit through a strat or through a summoning, it costs reinforcement points.

Not strictly true. Adding models to a unit doesn't cost points but making new units does. Replacing slain models does not cost points

I'm specifically talking about removing a Single model unit and it coming back .. via an ability or stratagem, No-one plays Necrons competitively (nor space marines really) so I don't have a report from the scene where this comes up ..

but if Guilliman returns after being slain... does he cost points?

Bobby G doesnt cost points, when he gets back up. Its not always true that units coming back from the dead cost reinforcement points. Slain necron characters can also get back with the help of a stratagem on a 4+. They dont cost points either.

Reanimation_Protocol wrote:
When a single model unit (Guilliman for eg.) is killed and has an ability that removes them from the table but allows them to be setup at the end of the phase.

Do you need to set aside reinforcement points for that situation? (so 400+400 for RG)

looking around I can only see a few iterations of this rule ... same for the Phylactery Relic for Necrons, bears the same wording as does the Reanimation Stratagem to bring back other UNIQUE named characters (Just not C'tan or Trazyn)

is this in an FAQ I missed where this avoids the summoning rules?

Isn't that in the FAQs for RG and Celestine?

 p5freak wrote:
Bobby G doesnt cost points, when he gets back up. Its not always true that units coming back from the dead cost reinforcement points. Slain necron characters can also get back with the help of a stratagem on a 4+. They dont cost points either.

This is what I'm hoping for .. but I could use a source on that if you know of one ... because RAW .. any new unit setup costs points. .. I know there are some that state outright they do so without costing re-inforcement ... but RG nor Necrons do .

Its not a new unit. Its the old unit set up again.

Gillamane's ability doesn't say "first time he dies", his ability happens instead of dieing, so it's a replace effect when he goes to zero wounds remaining. So no, he is not a new unit in any way.

As far as I know there is no general rule that new units always cost reinforcements points. It's usually mentioned if you have to pay for new units.

Warhammer 40,000 BRB wrote:Reinforcement Points
Sometimes a psychic power or ability allow you to add units to your army, or replace units that have been destroyed....

Each time a unit is added to an army during battle, you must first subtract the number of points the unit would cost from your pool of reinforcement points...

Warhammer 40,000 FAQ wrote:Q: If a rule creates a new unit during the battle in a matched play game and adds them to my army, must I pay for the unit with my reinforcement points?
A: Yes (unless the rule itself says otherwise). If you don’t have enough reinforcement points, you cannot add that unit to your army.

Q: What about rules that transform one model into another model – such as turning an enemy Character into a Chaos Spawn; do I still need to pay reinforcement points to add the Chaos Spawn to my army?
A: Again, yes (unless the rule itself says otherwise).

Q: What about rules that add models to existing units; do I need to pay reinforcement points for those models?
A: No (unless the rule itself says otherwise or adding the models would take the unit above its starting size).

Based on the specific rules for "respawning" a unit, it may or may not cost reinforcement points. Units that do something other than die when they lose their last would are not new units and therefore are not covered by the Reinforcement Points rule.

 quickfuze wrote:
Gillamane's ability doesn't say "first time he dies", his ability happens instead of dieing, so it's a replace effect when he goes to zero wounds remaining. So no, he is not a new unit in any way.

it does though

" ...the first time Roboute Guilliman is reduced to 0 wounds, roll a D6.
On a 4+ set him up again at the end of the phase .."

it says he gets reduced to 0 wounds so you would remove him from the table and set him back up again if he rolls 4+

and from the core rules it says replacing a "Destroyed" model :

 alextroy wrote:

Warhammer 40,000 BRB wrote:Reinforcement Points
Sometimes a psychic power or ability allow you to add units to your army, or replace units that have been destroyed....

Each time a unit is added to an army during battle, you must first subtract the number of points the unit would cost from your pool of reinforcement points...

TThe rules only say you pay points if a unit is added, not when you replace a destroyed unit. Its why Tide of Traitors says you have to pay points because by default you don't, as with Endless Green Tide.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
TThe rules only say you pay points if a unit is added, not when you replace a destroyed unit. Its why Tide of Traitors says you have to pay points because by default you don't, as with Endless Green Tide.

Tide of traitors doesn't deal with destroyed units and doesn't state to not use points, but it does say it's the same unit just replenished to full strength.

Endless green tide I don't have access to check.

but from the Rule book in it's full (emphasis mine) form :

REINFORCEMENT POINTS
Sometimes a psychic power or ability will allow you
to add units to your army, or replace units that have
been destroyed.

One of the most common examples of
such an ability might allow you to summon a unit of
DAEMONS to the battlefield. In a matched play game,
you must set aside some of your points in order to use
these units. The points you set aside are called your
reinforcement points, and need to be recorded on your
army roster (see below).

specifically says destroyed units ... Guiliman is Destroyed - reduced to 0 wounds - slain ... and then setup again at the end of phase

and I'll quote a thread you started to prove it - https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/755658.page

the same for Necron characters with casket or using the stratagem.


Honestly I don't WANT it to work this way but I DO want to play it right. .. I can't see anything that exempts RG from paying reinforcement points.

Reanimation_Protocol wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:
Gillamane's ability doesn't say "first time he dies", his ability happens instead of dieing, so it's a replace effect when he goes to zero wounds remaining. So no, he is not a new unit in any way.

it does though

" ...the first time Roboute Guilliman is reduced to 0 wounds, roll a D6.
On a 4+ set him up again at the end of the phase .."

it says he gets reduced to 0 wounds so you would remove him from the table and set him back up again if he rolls 4+

and from the core rules it says replacing a "Destroyed" model :

 alextroy wrote:

Warhammer 40,000 BRB wrote:Reinforcement Points
Sometimes a psychic power or ability allow you to add units to your army, or replace units that have been destroyed....

Each time a unit is added to an army during battle, you must first subtract the number of points the unit would cost from your pool of reinforcement points...

The rules also say you can have only one Guilliman in your army. If the one you're setting up after Guilliman died is a new unit, then it would be the second Guilliman in your army and be against the rules. So, they're treating him as the same Guilliman. He died than he got better.

 doctortom wrote:


The rules also say you can have only one Guilliman in your army. If the one you're setting up is a new unit, then it would be the second Guilliman in your army and be against the rules. So, they're treating him as the same Guilliman. He died than he got better.

sounds like another Addition to BCB's signature -- Guilliman can never resurrect as he can't be in your army twice

Monty Python rules are in effect here, he gets better and is the same model.


Gulliman's rule is replacing a slain model, so it doesn't cost points, it's not adding a new one. It's the same as Daemons with Icon rolling a 1 for morale.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Monty Python rules are in effect here, he gets better and is the same model.


Gulliman's rule is replacing a slain model, so it doesn't cost points, it's not adding a new one. It's the same as Daemons with Icon rolling a 1 for morale.

Sorry man ... can you point me where it states replacing a model Does NOT cost Reinforcement Points?

because the only quote I have from the rulebook says replacing slain models DOES

Reanimation_Protocol wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Monty Python rules are in effect here, he gets better and is the same model.


Gulliman's rule is replacing a slain model, so it doesn't cost points, it's not adding a new one. It's the same as Daemons with Icon rolling a 1 for morale.

Sorry man ... can you point me where it states replacing a model Does NOT cost Reinforcement Points?

because the only quote I have from the rulebook says replacing slain models DOES

"It doesn't say I can't" is not an argument. Can you show me in the rules where it states I can't adopt a puppy to get +1 to wound in the shooting phase?

The rule you're referring too says "Each time a unit is added to an army during battle", not a model/unit replaced.

Inflict Damage: .... . If a model’s wounds
are reduced to 0, it is either slain
or destroyed and removed from
play.

Guilliman is removed ... then you roll and he sets up at the end of the phase

He Ded !

Reanimation_Protocol wrote:
Inflict Damage: .... . If a model’s wounds
are reduced to 0, it is either slain
or destroyed and removed from
play.

Guilliman is removed ... then you roll and he sets up at the end of the phase

He Ded !

Yes. However when you REPLACE him at the end of the phase, you aren't adding a new unit to your army ala Daemon Summoning.

Replacement doesn't cost points. Adding new models and units does. Models reviving ala Chaos Icon, Act of Faith or Rowboat Gorillaglueman does not cost Reinforcement points. Spawning a new unit of Bloodcrushers does cost points.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Replacement doesn't cost points. Adding new models and units does.

ummm unless you stop reading at commas it does ..

Sometimes a psychic power or ability allow you to add units to your army, or replace units that have been destroyed

Reanimation_Protocol wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Replacement doesn't cost points. Adding new models and units does.

ummm unless you stop reading at commas it does ..

Sometimes a psychic power or ability allow you to add units to your army, or replace units that have been destroyed

Err, you've totally ignored the fact that is a separate clause. The rule that says what things cost points is totally unrelated to that rule.

"Each time a unit is added to an army during battle, you must first subtract the number of points the unit would cost from your pool of reinforcement points."

Only adding costs points, it says nothing about replacement. The rules are permissive.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Reanimation_Protocol wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Replacement doesn't cost points. Adding new models and units does.

ummm unless you stop reading at commas it does ..

Sometimes a psychic power or ability allow you to add units to your army, or replace units that have been destroyed

Err, you've totally ignored the fact that is a separate clause. The rule that says what things cost points is totally unrelated to that rule.

"Each time a unit is added to an army during battle, you must first subtract the number of points the unit would cost from your pool of reinforcement points."

Only adding costs points, it says nothing about replacement. The rules are permissive.

I didn't think so ... I thought I had posted it in Full from my copy... so it's here for info verbatim

REINFORCEMENT POINTS
Sometimes a psychic power or ability will allow you
to add units to your army, or replace units that have
been destroyed.

One of the most common examples of
such an ability might allow you to summon a unit of
DAEMONS to the battlefield.

In a matched play game,
you must set aside some of your points in order to use
these units. The points you set aside are called your
reinforcement points, and need to be recorded on your
army roster (see below).

so anything with an ability that allows it once destroyed to come back MUST pay points the same way that adding NEW units would ... it's all in one paragraph .. not a separate clause.

By that logic, if I embark my Tacs into a Rhino, then disembark them later, I'm setting them up on the board. I'm not paying reinforcement points for them.

In these cases, unlike certain other ones, we're setting *that* Tac squad and *that* Gman back up. Same instance of the unit. In other cases, we're adding new units or replacing units with new instances of the same unit.

I *think* that's the difference? I *think* the rules are just-barely-clear-enough? I certainly see where it's arguable.

This might extend to RP as well.

Again, the line "Sometimes a psychic power or ability will allow you to add units to your army, or replace units that have been destroyed." doesn't require you to pay any points.

The first line of the second paragraph states "Each time a unit is added to an army during battle, you must first subtract the number of points the unit would cost from your pool of reinforcement points." When a unit revives or gets replaced by a stratagem, you don't pay points because you're not adding a unit to your army. Again, it's why Tide of Traitors has a rider saying it costs reinforcement points, because by default it does not. Likewise, replacing slain models via a Tervigon or a Chaos Icon doesn't cost points.

Bharring wrote:
By that logic, if I embark my Tacs into a Rhino, then disembark them later, I'm setting them up on the board. I'm not paying reinforcement points for them.

correct ... this only applies to adding NEW units to your army or adding Destroyed units back ... not to reserves or embarked and thus off table units.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Again, the line "Sometimes a psychic power or ability will allow you to add units to your army, or replace units that have been destroyed." doesn't require you to pay any points.

The first line of the second paragraph states "Each time a unit is added to an army during battle, you must first subtract the number of points the unit would cost from your pool of reinforcement points." When a unit revives or gets replaced by a stratagem, you don't pay points because you're not adding a unit to your army. Again, it's why Tide of Traitors has a rider saying it costs reinforcement points, because by default it does not. Likewise, replacing slain models via a Tervigon or a Chaos Icon doesn't cost points.

Why would they start the paragraph under points with a sentence that discusses both those scenarios and then only prescribe one of those options and never mention the other?

also, dude please read tide of traitors .. it doesn't say what you think it says ... no mention of points at all unless it has been FAQ'ed outside of the codex copy

Reanimation_Protocol wrote:

Bharring wrote:
By that logic, if I embark my Tacs into a Rhino, then disembark them later, I'm setting them up on the board. I'm not paying reinforcement points for them.

correct ... this only applies to adding NEW units to your army or adding Destroyed units back ... not to reserves or embarked and thus off table units.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Again, the line "Sometimes a psychic power or ability will allow you to add units to your army, or replace units that have been destroyed." doesn't require you to pay any points.

The first line of the second paragraph states "Each time a unit is added to an army during battle, you must first subtract the number of points the unit would cost from your pool of reinforcement points." When a unit revives or gets replaced by a stratagem, you don't pay points because you're not adding a unit to your army. Again, it's why Tide of Traitors has a rider saying it costs reinforcement points, because by default it does not. Likewise, replacing slain models via a Tervigon or a Chaos Icon doesn't cost points.

Why would they start the paragraph under points with a sentence that discusses both those scenarios and then only prescribe one of those options and never mention the other?

Because that's the only one that paragraph applies to?

BCB,
I agree with how you read it, but it leads to a potential RAW issue:
"In a matched play game,
you must set aside some of your points in order to use
these units." clearly limits using 'replacement' units.

What you most recently quoted specifies how to use the points with regards to *added* units.

So we have a requirement that you must set aside points to use replacement units, but no direction on how those set-aside points interact with replacement units?

Jacksmiles wrote:

Reanimation_Protocol wrote:

Why would they start the paragraph under points with a sentence that discusses both those scenarios and then only prescribe one of those options and never mention the other?

Because that's the only one that paragraph applies to?

Dear Valued customer of ACME Insurance ... with regards to your new million dollar policy Sometimes we will allow you to add units to your policy, or replace units that have been destroyed.

We will charge you $1,000,000 for adding new units..

The end .. thanks
Please don't ask us about adding destroyed units .. that info is classified .. and you probably can't even afford it !

Good bye