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I thought by cutting the point costs for Grey Knights units and characters would give them an edge in terms of numbers, but GW is also cutting some points from other armies, even so already strong ones like Tyranids. Heck, they even cut points on Chaos units, which Grey Knights are supposed to be strong against fluff-wise.

Furthermore, the problem with Grey Knights is not on numbers but them being continuously fethed over in the rules, like the deep striking rules and sucky psychic powers.

fukafukahokari wrote:
I thought by cutting the point costs for Grey Knights units and characters would give them an edge in terms of numbers, but GW is also cutting some points from other armies, even so already strong ones like Tyranids. Heck, they even cut points on Chaos units, which Grey Knights are supposed to be strong against fluff-wise.

Furthermore, the problem with Grey Knights is not on numbers but them being continuously fethed over in the rules, like the deep striking rules and sucky psychic powers.

There are a few threads on this

There seem to be a number of problems with whats been leaked about CA:

GW dropped the points on many units that did not need (mainly Guard) it - Manticores, Plasma guns, Tank Commanders stand out.
GW did not drop the points on many uints that did need it.
GW did not increase the points on many units that needed to: Infantry squads
GW ignored the problems with -1 to hit
GW screwed up the Sister beta codex

Because CA is (apparently) not the place for sweeping rules changes.. only points.

and GK aren't the only ones that needed a revision in costs.

the tl;dr is - by lowering a lot of the points costs you can bring more toys to the table, compared to some of the other armies that will still field the same stuff as before and not have had such sweeping changes.

this wasn't a simple "Fix it by making everything free" .. it was to try and bring GK and Necrons and Marines up into middle table ... test it for 3 months and see where everything sits.

Stupid knee jerks are bad ... see <FLY> changes ... I would much prefer a slower approach to the random nerf bat.

and also ... I prefer these huge discounts to ANY nerfs .... bring stuff up rather than knock stuff down

Well dark eldar and orks didn't get point drops so you gained vs those two ;-)

Well, you could've NOT received any pt changes.... Would you prefer that?

tneva82 wrote:
Well dark eldar and orks didn't get point drops so you gained vs those two ;-)

But my DE kills GK anyway, with or without pt drops.

ccs wrote:
Well, you could've NOT received any pt changes.... Would you prefer that?

But some of the changes make no sense. Every GK army was already spaming GM NDKs, because they were much better then normal NDKs for a very small point drop. Right now, a normal NDK costs makes sense even less, because the GM droped in points. It is as if Sternguard went from 14pts to 12 pts, while tac stayed at 13, it is mind blowingly stupid. Or they made the changes without actually reading the GK codex.

Karol wrote:

ccs wrote:
Well, you could've NOT received any pt changes.... Would you prefer that?

But some of the changes make no sense. Every GK army was already spaming GM NDKs, because they were much better then normal NDKs for a very small point drop. Right now, a normal NDK costs makes sense even less, because the GM droped in points. It is as if Sternguard went from 14pts to 12 pts, while tac stayed at 13, it is mind blowingly stupid. Or they made the changes without actually reading the GK codex.

But it does make some sense ..

see those units that are quite good .. well they are cheaper now so you can take some additional stuff to bolster your army ... oh and some of those things are cheaper so you can have more

Karol wrote:

ccs wrote:
Well, you could've NOT received any pt changes.... Would you prefer that?

But some of the changes make no sense. Every GK army was already spaming GM NDKs, because they were much better then normal NDKs for a very small point drop. Right now, a normal NDK costs makes sense even less, because the GM droped in points. It is as if Sternguard went from 14pts to 12 pts, while tac stayed at 13, it is mind blowingly stupid. Or they made the changes without actually reading the GK codex.

Each normal GK has a storm bolter and a force weapon. This keeps the basic costs rocket-high.

Gk, Necrons and Admech received buffs to pretty much all units, including the good ones, so they received a buff in relation to other faction, improving the overall competitivity.

Other factions received buffs to bad units, improving the internal balance of all faction, but leaving the competitivity of it untouched. Take the tyranids you cited as example: no buff to flyrants, hive guards, genestealers, dakkafexes, zoans, venoms, rippers, malanthope, termagants, hormagaunts, biovores. Nerf to Neurothropes. This means that actually the old lists are overall nerfed (they all had one or more neuros). Yet us bug players are all happy, because even if our current top lists were nerfed, we gained a lot more possibilities in list building, which is what in the end matters.


All this to say that yes, GK (and Admech and Necrons) were buffed significantly.

The only unexplainable buff were the IG tank commanders.

ccs wrote:
Well, you could've NOT received any pt changes.... Would you prefer that?

It amounts to the same thing. If you only have drek to field then having more drek really doesn't make much of a difference. So, in answer to your question, I probably would have preferred not to have received any point change as that would be reflective of what GW really thinks of GK.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

ccs wrote:
Well, you could've NOT received any pt changes.... Would you prefer that?

It amounts to the same thing. If you only have drek to field then having more drek really doesn't make much of a difference. So, in answer to your question, I probably would have preferred not to have received any point change as that would be reflective of what GW really thinks of GK.

Only drek?

Draigo is a steal, GMDK are borderline OP models, your dreadnaughts pay only a few points over the standard marine ones to become really good psykers (+1 to cast and deny, many psykers would kill for that, especially the deny). And guess what, they all received a buff in CA!
Strike squads suck as troops, but are decent as a specialized infantry.

Sure, a lot of models in your book are not exactly stellar, but between that and saying that you don't have good models...

Spoletta wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

ccs wrote:
Well, you could've NOT received any pt changes.... Would you prefer that?

It amounts to the same thing. If you only have drek to field then having more drek really doesn't make much of a difference. So, in answer to your question, I probably would have preferred not to have received any point change as that would be reflective of what GW really thinks of GK.

Only drek?

Draigo is a steal, GMDK are borderline OP models, your dreadnaughts pay only a few points over the standard marine ones to become really good psykers (+1 to cast and deny, many psykers would kill for that, especially the deny). And guess what, they all received a buff in CA!
Strike squads suck as troops, but are decent as a specialized infantry.

Sure, a lot of models in your book are not exactly stellar, but between that and saying that you don't have good models...

Play GK much?

Spoletta wrote:


The only unexplainable buff were the IG tank commanders.

Only reason I can think for that is that they felt Pask was fairly costed but that there needed to be a bigger difference between him and regular tank commanders. Which is a pretty weak reason but I honestly can't think of any other reasons why they went down.

My GK list which was already doing fine in casual games.

Draigo
Voldus
Paladins x6 Paragon w/hammer 5x halberds
Paladins x6 Paragon w/hammer 5x halberds
Paladins x3 Paragon w/hammer 3x halberds
Apothecary w/hammer (WL and relic)
Apothecary w/hammer
TL/ML ven dread
TL/ML dread
TL/ML dread

Dropped by near 400pts

I can now take 3 ven dreads, 3 extra Paladins, 4 extra Paladin heavy weapons AND a GMNDK w/sword psilencer and psycannon!

Seriously can't complain to be honest.

Pancakey wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

ccs wrote:
Well, you could've NOT received any pt changes.... Would you prefer that?

It amounts to the same thing. If you only have drek to field then having more drek really doesn't make much of a difference. So, in answer to your question, I probably would have preferred not to have received any point change as that would be reflective of what GW really thinks of GK.

Only drek?

Draigo is a steal, GMDK are borderline OP models, your dreadnaughts pay only a few points over the standard marine ones to become really good psykers (+1 to cast and deny, many psykers would kill for that, especially the deny). And guess what, they all received a buff in CA!
Strike squads suck as troops, but are decent as a specialized infantry.

Sure, a lot of models in your book are not exactly stellar, but between that and saying that you don't have good models...

Play GK much?

Seriously. GMDK is borderline upper-middle in his best days (having a penalty for moving and shooting plus babysmite keeps him from being solidly upper middle).

Everyone's dreadnoughts suck though with the sole exception of Hellforged Leviathans with Butcher Cannon Arrays. Least we're hardly alone there.

I have a solution to all the moaning about Grey Knights; instead of throwing them in the dumpster, send them my way. Seriously, if you have Grey Knights, have only hatred of them, PM me and I'll take them for you. I'll deal with the shipping, and you can end the masochistic torture of your plastic soul.

To be clear, so nobody misunderstands...I'm offering to collect your army (not buy it!!), but I'll pay for the shipping. I'm sure every GK player is lining up for THAT offer

How are you even holding objectives with that list? In my meta I'm pretty sure that I would be tabled fairly easily due to the lack of models on the table.

Do you play scenerios or just kill to the last person?

fukafukahokari wrote:
How is Grey Knights buffed when you buff others too?

Because it's chapter approved, not codex:buff the grey knights. And there are other units out there that needing points cuts that appear to have been less fortunate.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
How are you even holding objectives with that list? In my meta I'm pretty sure that I would be tabled fairly easily due to the lack of models on the table.

Do you play scenerios or just kill to the last person?

Draigo and Voldus stay with the a paladin squad each controlling the middle of the board backed up by an apothecary each for re-rolls/heals/heroic interventions in the earlier stages of the game. Dreads <6" behind so they also get the re-rolls.

Mid-late game, gate of infinity characters or a squad to objectives, Draigo or Voldus alone can wipe many objective sitting units. Even a solo apothecary can wipe small/weakened squads over a couple of turns.

Usually play book missions, eternal war sometimes with tactical objectives, cleanse and capture with 6 objectives is probably the most common game type I play.

I can see how this style would fail hard in some types of progressive scoring however.

I know there are lists that would table in 2-3 turns easily(My own Tau list probably would).

After DS nerfs I had to change my list a lot, used to run massed strikes and intercepters with GMNDKs, for whole army in your face turn one. When that got nerfed out of existence I defaulted to my favoured type of list and the Paladins/Dreads have been doing surprisingly ok in casual games, against decent by no means optimised lists, which is the level I play at mostly.

Putting points into beatstick characters seemed to make more sense than running the GMNDKs which sort of filled the same role but drew too much fire and could not be hidden in squads. 2 Paladin squads both with 4++ for 2 turns(due to very low CP) and an apothecary healing can survive reasonably well.

My local community is quite expansive, so you can simply avoid what would be totally un-winnable match ups or I just play another army in competitive games.

With almost 400pts to play with I'm quite interested to see how the list may function in tougher games.

What is a winnable match up?

My email to gw....

There is a lot of good in the grey Knight CA updates, and I know you are already working on the faq. Here is list of things over looked or mistakes for grey knights.
-regular dreadknight wasn't reduced in points and is only 10pts less than gmndk. That 10pt difference is +1ws, +1bs, +1 invul, reroll 1 aura, character.
-grey knight terminators are worse than space marine terminators but are 7pts more expensive (power fist vs force sword, str 8 v str 4, both 1d3 wounds, -1hit fist). gkt with psyker and obsec should be about 26pts, +5 for force sword (fist is 9) +2 for storm bolter. 33 pts total.
- paladins should be about 43 pts, they are terminators with +1a, +1w, -obsec
-strikesquads are okay, but purgation and purifiers should be fixed as they are weaker than the strike squad (-obsec, -deepstrike). -3 more points to each. Or for purifiers...
-purifiers are weak because of their smite nerf to 3". Make it 6" (this also fixes the brother captain as they having something to synergize with).
- brother Captain, Chaplin, champion, crowe, Libby are all outshined by voldus, draigo, and gmndk. Give them something special.
-strikesquads still pay for alpha strike even though it was nerfed
-gk need a second psyker table.
-twin auto Cannon is still over priced. Other armies pay 10pts per autocannon, so the twin autocannon should be 20pts not 33.
-twin assault cannons should be 30pts. GK were punished because robute gulliman is good.
-psycannon after the pts reduction is still worse than psilencer in most cases. Math hammer it. The psycannon is only better against t5,t6,t7,t8 single wound models with 3+ or 2+ save. And only slightly better.
-psychic onslaught and psybolt is still 2cp. Needs to be 1cp.

Good jobs on...
Draigo, gmndk, dreadknight weapons, vehicle weaponals, dreadnoughts, voldus, ancients, medics and interceptors. Those are much better now.

While I still think the GK need work it's rather easy to understand how their buff translates more than other armies.

GK received points drops on almost everything for an easy example lets say it was a 20% army wide drop

Let's look at CWE that also got a point drop on units but mainly units that weren't taken in their codex. So while these units might have also dropped 20% (once again just simple numbers for the example) its 20% off the units never taken.

So functionally GK got 20% better while CWE only got 20% better on what isn't already taken. So, in reality, CWE received a smaller deduction off their entire army. So CWE might have gained 10% efficiency while GK get 20%

Once again I don't think this is enough and GK and all power armor models most likely need a full rules rewrite to become truely ballance but that isnt what CA is for

 timetowaste85 wrote:
I have a solution to all the moaning about Grey Knights; instead of throwing them in the dumpster, send them my way. Seriously, if you have Grey Knights, have only hatred of them, PM me and I'll take them for you. I'll deal with the shipping, and you can end the masochistic torture of your plastic soul.

To be clear, so nobody misunderstands...I'm offering to collect your army (not buy it!!), but I'll pay for the shipping. I'm sure every GK player is lining up for THAT offer

We appreciate your non cynical offer but we must decline. It would not be fair to subject you to a very substandard experience. I hope you understand and can forgive us.

Asmodios wrote:
While I still think the GK need work it's rather easy to understand how their buff translates more than other armies.

GK received points drops on almost everything for an easy example lets say it was a 20% army wide drop

Let's look at CWE that also got a point drop on units but mainly units that weren't taken in their codex. So while these units might have also dropped 20% (once again just simple numbers for the example) its 20% off the units never taken.

So functionally GK got 20% better while CWE only got 20% better on what isn't already taken. So, in reality, CWE received a smaller deduction off their entire army. So CWE might have gained 10% efficiency while GK get 20%

Once again I don't think this is enough and GK and all power armor models most likely need a full rules rewrite to become truely ballance but that isnt what CA is for

What gw did was help the gk field a lot we dont use though. The core only got slightly touched or passed over. Ie strike squads, terminators, interceptors with only slight modifications. 2 pt adjustments on terminators and interceptors. So in a squad I saved 10pts. That's not enough to even take another body or upgrade a melee weapon.

The big hq and character point changes were nice, again, many never being used. An ancient may make it's way into my lists now though.

Dreadnoughts are a bit easier to fit into a list now. Draigo is a good price now.

But the CORE of this army didn't really change.

Asmodios wrote:
While I still think the GK need work it's rather easy to understand how their buff translates more than other armies.

GK received points drops on almost everything for an easy example lets say it was a 20% army wide drop

Let's look at CWE that also got a point drop on units but mainly units that weren't taken in their codex. So while these units might have also dropped 20% (once again just simple numbers for the example) its 20% off the units never taken.

So functionally GK got 20% better while CWE only got 20% better on what isn't already taken. So, in reality, CWE received a smaller deduction off their entire army. So CWE might have gained 10% efficiency while GK get 20%

Once again I don't think this is enough and GK and all power armor models most likely need a full rules rewrite to become truely ballance but that isnt what CA is for

But eldar even if they got no deductions were much better then GK, they would be much better then GK even if they got big point rises. Heck the bad stuff that got it stuff lowered, is better then the good stuff GK have.

Procentage isn't everything, If I get 0,25$ from my parents and they give me a 100% rise, but my sister gets 10$ and they only give here a 10% rise, she still is getting more and ending up with more.

Dreadnoughts are a bit easier to fit into a list now. Draigo is a good price now.

that is true. But didn't most characters drop in points for marines? Same with dreads, the point drop is not GK specific. It is more part of the dread point drop for all faction. Now if GW gave all GK models the option to buy stormshields at other marine price, then the change would be at worse interesting.

Asmodios wrote:
While I still think the GK need work it's rather easy to understand how their buff translates more than other armies.

GK received points drops on almost everything for an easy example lets say it was a 20% army wide drop

Let's look at CWE that also got a point drop on units but mainly units that weren't taken in their codex. So while these units might have also dropped 20% (once again just simple numbers for the example) its 20% off the units never taken.

So functionally GK got 20% better while CWE only got 20% better on what isn't already taken. So, in reality, CWE received a smaller deduction off their entire army. So CWE might have gained 10% efficiency while GK get 20%

Exactly. As an Eldar player with a variety of lists (not just the Meta Eldar soup net-list, I don't even own Reapers) my lists only dropped about 30pts each. That's not enough to add new unit. But it did open up options that were sub-par before and might actually get taken (specifically my WRs that have been on the shelf for a while)
But compare that to Mike712's post early in this thread. 400pts? That's significant.
Yes GKs need more help to make them viable, and it really should be rules changes rather than just points drops. If anything needs to change it's the Beta Tactical Reserve rules.

Either remove the restriction entirely for GKs, or change them to only apply to the 1st player. But the player who goes second, who had to face a whole round of shooting from their opponent putting at least half that army at risk Turn 1, should be able to call in Reserves on turn 1.
It isn't fair that Player 1 gets two whole rounds against Player 2, including 1 round that includes Reserves, before Player 2 can respond with theirs
IMO this is the perfect solution to counter balance the advantage of going first, while at the same time makes GKs that much better

-

GK's just needs a new codex. Point changes wont do it.

They really should have their own Powers chart that all units can use and is a cast on 5+ using 2D6, each unit can only be effected once, but you can use the same power multi times.

+3" movement or always runs 6"
+1 to hit in melee
+1 to hit in shooting
+1 atk in melee
+1 to Str in melee
Overwatch on 5+

This will give them a unique power system, this will let you use your overcosted units to a better purpose when and where you need.

There a fundamental issues with a Grey Knights that sweeping point changes can't fix. They need a full codex rewrite (likewise other early 8th codexes need the same, but not to the same extent as GK)

"But eldar even if they got no deductions were much better then GK, they would be much better then GK even if they got big point rises. Heck the bad stuff that got it stuff lowered, is better then the good stuff GK have."

Wanna tell me again how Storm Guardians at 6ppm are better than GMDKs?