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Or rather count as and use the rules for Twin Autocannon. I mean, obviously I can have whatever I want "count as" whatever, but in this case, does it make sense?

Assault cannons and Twin Autocannons are very similar in Str and AP, and the Dreadnought Assault cannons (the ones I'll be using) are noticeably bigger than other versions, such as on Terminators, Land Speeders, etc.
And with "Master Crafted" in 8E just being Damage 2, a MC Assault cannon would have the same Damage and AP as an Autocannon.
So it would be giving up 2 shots for double range and +1S, which isn't too far a stretch.

So it's Master Crafted to use bigger rounds that go farther and do more damage.
I'll be modeling the Assault Cannon barrels onto Predator Heavy Bolter sponsons as well to give them even more "weight"

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Isn't the AC type of weapon design an inferior one to single barrel one autocannon. Even if somehow master crafted it should still be worse then an autocannon. And using bigger rounds would just make it jam even more.

I mean it could be done with counts as I guess, but in the end it is a horrible design.

 Galef wrote:
Or rather count as and use the rules for Twin Autocannon. I mean, obviously I can have whatever I want "count as" whatever, but in this case, does it make sense?

Assault cannons and Twin Autocannons are very similar in Str and AP, and the Dreadnought Assault cannons (the ones I'll be using) are noticeably bigger than other versions, such as on Terminators, Land Speeders, etc.
And with "Master Crafted" in 8E just being Damage 2, a MC Assault cannon would have the same Damage and AP as an Autocannon.
So it would be giving up 2 shots for double range and +1S, which isn't too far a stretch.

So it's Master Crafted to use bigger rounds that go farther and do more damage.
I'll be modeling the Assault Cannon barrels onto Predator Heavy Bolter sponsons as well to give them even more "weight"

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I think it would depend the model whether it'll look good.

I doubt it's an inherently interior design, given Marines use more Assault Cannons than Autocannons.

Karol wrote:
Isn't the AC type of weapon design an inferior one to single barrel one autocannon. Even if somehow master crafted it should still be worse then an autocannon. And using bigger rounds would just make it jam even more.

I mean it could be done with counts as I guess, but in the end it is a horrible design.

The design trades caliber for rate of fire. It's a pretty standard tradeoff, honestly - When designing a gun, you have to find a balance between size, rate of fire, and caliber of shot. Increasing one will take away from the others.
With 40k tech, though, an Assault Cannon wouldn't necessarily have to use bigger rounds to do more damage, and it wouldn't make it jam worse. The bolts it fires could just be double-blessed and built by special artisans to put extra large holes in heretics, or the weapon could just be a straight up bigger autocannon.

That being said, I think it'd be pretty confusing for opponents. It wouldn't "Pass" under any circumstances just on modeling alone - If someone sees an Assault Cannon, they're going to expect an Assault Cannon, and if they see an Autocannon they're going to expect an Autocannon. You'd be running a counts as, which is fine, except when ITC Tournament time rolls around.

Oh here we go. It's the havoc launchers all over again...

It's not hard to make an Autocannon. Both have very distinctive silhouettes and you'll just be confusing people.

 Grimtuff wrote:
Oh here we go. It's the havoc launchers all over again...

Oh, yeah, I forgot about those. They actually turned out pretty well, actually:

 Grimtuff wrote:
It's not hard to make an Autocannon. Both have very distinctive silhouettes and you'll just be confusing people.

Maybe, but since no Dread I can think of can have Assault Cannons on both arms, as we will be doing, so there is a visual que right there that this is something "not just an Assault cannon".
And then making it clear that they are Master Crafted Assault cannons, specifically using the Twin Autocannon profile, and I doubt any of my son's opponents will have issue with it.

If 'you' have issue with it, that's understandable, but my question is if the general, reasonable, community would think this modification makes sense.
Even Chaos Reaper Autocannons have a profile far more similar to older versions of Assault cannons (i.e. 4 shots that do 1 damage each).
So there is clearly precedence that not all Assault cannons/Autocannons are created equally. And this is for a Salamanders Ven Dread, which would clearly have more attention given to it.

And it actually IS hard to make 4 Autocannons when the kit doesn't come with them and you don't have enough allowance to buy an Aegis or modeling skill experience.
My son will be buying this Dread himself.

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For casual gaming i would say its fine. The only caveat being that if your son used the same piece on a different unit and actually used it as an autocannon thats where it would be leading to more no than yes.

Your havoc launchers look great!

 Galef wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
Oh here we go. It's the havoc launchers all over again...

Oh, yeah, I forgot about those. They actually turned out pretty well, actually:

Spoiler:

 Grimtuff wrote:
It's not hard to make an Autocannon. Both have very distinctive silhouettes and you'll just be confusing people.

Maybe, but since no Dread I can think of can have Assault Cannons on both arms, as we will be doing, so there is a visual que right there that this is something "not just an Assault cannon".
And then making it clear that they are Master Crafted Assault cannons, specifically using the Twin Autocannon profile, and I doubt any of my son's opponents will have issue with it.

If 'you' have issue with it, that's understandable, but my question is if the general, reasonable, community would think this modification makes sense.
Even Chaos Reaper Autocannons have a profile far more similar to older versions of Assault cannons (i.e. 4 shots that do 1 damage each).
So there is clearly precedence that not all Assault cannons/Autocannons are created equally. And this is for a Salamanders Ven Dread, which would clearly have more attention given to it.

And it actually IS hard to make 4 Autocannons when the kit doesn't come with them and you don't have enough allowance to buy an Aegis or modeling skill experience.
My son will be buying this Dread himself.

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Mortis dreadnaughts can be equipped with double assualt cannon.
A relic contemptor or comtemptor mortis can similarly be equiped with an assualt cannon on either arm and a pair of assualt cannons respectively. (It's a different body, but somepeople might expect you to be counts asing a plastic dread over the FW one) it's a legal loadout so it's 100% never going to fly as anything other than counts as.

I don't use FW and almost no one in my local area does either, so until you mentioned it, I completely forgot FW had Dread varieties. I had to look up what a Mortis was.

In any case, I took another look as my current Ven Dread's Assault cannon compared to one on a Terminator and Landspeeder and holy crude! is it MASSIVE in comparison.

I ran some of my ideas by my son (whose getting this Dread and wanted the Twin Autocannons) and he is all for the MC AC idea.
He really likes 6- barreled mini-guns and since Salamanders are Master Artisans (literally their Chapter tactic) it would be plausible that a Ven Dread in their Chapter would have a pair of MC AC, of which we'll just use the Twin Autocannon rules for.

A couple things I'll be doing to hammer home that these are NOT regular Assault cannons:
- Using 1 Pred HB sponson for each arm as a base to build up the bulk and ammo casing. I will be cutting the tops of the "shoulders" of some of the Dread weapons to go on top of the sponson
- Attaching a Dread Assault cannon to the end of the HB, but upside down. This was actually my sons idea, because the mini-guns he likes have "handles" in top
- And finally, I'll be attaching a lego technic bit to the end of the barrel. I don't know what it's called, but it's the small cylinder, usually light grey, that is about 1.5cm long and about as big as the muzzle of a Lascannon. This will give the gun a longer, wider barrel that very similar to an Autocannon.

If all those visual cues, and the lack of any other Assault or Autocannons in his list don't tip off an opponent that these are not just Assault cannons, plus the fact that it would be listed and declared as Twin Autocannons, then I'm not sure that opponent is someone I'd want playing my son. Because it would also be an opponent who would have issues with a vast majority of my own models, which I work very hard on to look cool and unique.

 Nithaniel wrote:
Your havoc launchers look great!

Thanx

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Got it built. Photos include comparisions to my own Twin-Autocannon Dread conversion and the (rather tiny in comparison) regular Assault cannon:

Looks cool. The rotating barrels still scream "Assault cannon" to me, though. Size isn't the differentiator as Dreadnought asscans have always been a different size.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Looks cool. The rotating barrels still scream "Assault cannon" to me, though. Size isn't the differentiator as Dreadnought asscans have always been a different size.

Same here can't not see an assualt cannon, a nice conversion but still assualt cannon.
There is nothing wrong with using counts as outside of competitive events.

You could cut back the assault cannon cylinder some in length and build the shroud from the arm out a bit further and use it as a revolver-style ammunition feed for a slightly longer autocannon barrel, maybe?

Ice_can wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Looks cool. The rotating barrels still scream "Assault cannon" to me, though. Size isn't the differentiator as Dreadnought asscans have always been a different size.

Same here can't not see an assualt cannon, a nice conversion but still assualt cannon.
There is nothing wrong with using counts as outside of competitive events.

Well, it is supposed to still look like an Assault cannon, but not a regular one (hence the emphasis on it being bigger, with a larger barrel and longer back end)
These are supposed to be Master Crafted Assault cannons that 'count as' Twin Autocannons.

So if they still look like Assault cannons, then mission accomplished. But rules-wise, they are S7, Heavy 4, 48", D:2. I.e. Twin Autocannons

And side note, I've always had issue with vehicle weapons being different sizes than the infantry weapons, despite being the same weapon. It should not be this way.
I also discovered recently that the regular Dread Assault cannon is smaller then the Ven Dread one, but still bigger then the Landspeeder/Terminator one.
That drives my OCD up a wall, but in this case, I'm using the size difference to represent an alternate modeling choice.

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Effectively you are using the profile for a custom weapon. Mastr crafted means custom and that customization would be adequate for me if not too inspired. For me with mastr craft stuff i tend to make it look like it. As of now your mc ass cannons are still a bit too plain

I think the idea is fine. However, I find it a bit weird how the main barrel is so much bigger than the rotating barrels. Not that I know much about guns, but I feel that they should be of the same calibre for this gun to even remotely plausibly to work.

Your twin autocannons are reaper autocannons? And also assault cannons?

Will you also be using twin autocannons modeled by anything else at the same time?

No, nothing else in the army will have Assault cannons or Autocannons. If that changes, it'll be modelled consistently

It can also be, you know, a mortis dreadnought with twin assault cannons.

For that reason, while I generally wouldn't have a problem since I'm not a stickler for WYSIWYG, it would certainly not be clear that they're intended to be autocannons.

Simply put, the assault cannons look too assault cannon to ever be taken for an autocannon, but I also wager that very few people would throw a hissy-fit over such a counts-as.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
It can also be, you know, a mortis dreadnought with twin assault cannons.

For that reason, while I generally wouldn't have a problem since I'm not a stickler for WYSIWYG, it would certainly not be clear that they're intended to be autocannons.

Simply put, the assault cannons look too assault cannon to ever be taken for an autocannon, but I also wager that very few people would throw a hissy-fit over such a counts-as.

Makes sense. Although I'm going to continue to pretend the Mortis Dread doesn't exist as I do with most FW stuff. It just doesn't show up enough in my area, and the rules are just difficult enough to get that I have no interest in them.

My boys are very far off from playing any Tourneys, so casual games should be fine.
I still see people commenting that the look too "assault cannony", which as I've said, is intentional.
They ARE Assault cannons per fluff, but are using the rules for Twin Autocannons to represent being Master Crafted.

I always find the different perspectives interesting when it comes to the extend of imagination some players have/will allow in some games.
That's why I post these questions. It's nice to get a preview of any potential objections to have an explanation prepared.

I really appreciate all the feedback. Thanx!

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I think your conversion looks ok.
Personally I think the barrel with a huge bore at the front looks ridiculous compared to the assault cannon barrels and calibre. I would almost do 2x assault cannons per side and cut down the bore of the extended barrel.

I think would look cooler.