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Made in us
Aspirant Tech-Adept






There's one point in the lore that I'm still not quite sure on. Maybe some lore master can help me...

On one hand it's said that the 4 chaos gods are eternal and may predate life in the universe. In fact if one reads the intro to the black crusade RPG, it's implied the 4 chaos gods created the universe as it exists today.

On the other hand it's been said that slaanesh did not exist until ~ M30, around the time of the great crusade when the Eldar's decadence reached critical mass and created slaanesh and whose birth tore open the eye of terror.

So, help me out here guys, was slaanesh eternal and as old as the other 3, or did she not exist until M30? Some lore suggests the 4 have always existed, even before life did, and other lore is pretty clear that slaanesh was the new kid on the block having existed a mere 10,000 years. So,

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/06 06:39:18


"I learned the hard way that if you take a stand on any issue, no matter how insignificant, people will line up around the block to kick your ass over it." Jesse "the mind" Ventura. 
   
Made in ca
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London, Ontario

In the Warp, time has no real meaning. Slannesh has always existed in the warp, and always will.

Slannesh enters the 40k Galaxy around M30, birthing the Eye of Terror and chowing down on the Aeldari buffet. This dramatically increases the presence of Slannesh in the 40k Galaxy in the “physical” realm.
   
Made in se
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 greatbigtree wrote:
In the Warp, time has no real meaning. Slannesh has always existed in the warp, and always will.

Slannesh enters the 40k Galaxy around M30, birthing the Eye of Terror and chowing down on the Aeldari buffet. This dramatically increases the presence of Slannesh in the 40k Galaxy in the “physical” realm.


I don’t particularly care for this answer. It may be correct, and I don’t want to be rude, but it leaves out a lot of facts. We know there’s been other masters of the warp. Namely the eldar pantheon and the old ones. We know the warp was calm at one point (then referred to as the “Empyrian”), long before humanity even developed.

To answer the OP: Slaanesh was born in M30 ish. Untill then Khaine, Vaul, Isha and the other eldar gods where much bigger deals in the warp. It’s true that time doesn’t exist in the warp and that it follows a different set of rules then our own universe but gods can certainly die and be born there despite this. The warp is mostly... like a reflection. The feelings, souls and general behavior of living things get reflected in the warp. The four gods are so powerfull because they reflect humanity. The Emprrors grand plan was to reform humanity and starve the chaos gods into extinction. The basics is that what’s going on in the Milky Way also goes on in the warp. It’s just that in the warp all the underlying desires manifests as well. The chaos gods have existed as long as creatures that can feel have existed.

I apologise for the convolution of it all. I hope my answer helps.

His pattern of returning alive after being declared dead occurred often enough during Cain's career that the Munitorum made a special ruling that Ciaphas Cain is to never be considered dead, despite evidence to the contrary. 
   
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Norwich

I still dont think the chaos gods originate in the 40k universe, i think they are reflections of a greater force, the end of universes, they take on the aspects of whatever reality they enter but are always based around the same aspects

   
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Wicked Warp Spider





reposted from my previous

real space time and warp time whilst connected don't always align

each sentient races emotions most likely created lesser powers that slowly absorbed or merged with each other to create the greater powers

where Slaanesh differs is the Eldar being the most psychic of the mortal races meant Slaanesh grew very powerful very quickly and gobbled up all the other previous beings that shared her remit, along with all the Eldar gods (bar Isha,Khaine and Clownogach) until blasting into self awareness wrecking the Eldar and causing the Eye circa m30(ish)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/06 17:30:33


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In a Trayzn pokeball

Everything in the warp exists as a reflection of something in the material realm. Khorne started to exist when wars got big enough, Nurgle came into existence at a time of great disease, tzeench may have always existed as change is constant in the material universe, and slannesh came into existence when the eldar excessed themselves enough to create a god of excess. Fairly sure that is correct as of 7th ed BRB, but that needs citation.

But no, they are not permeant or timeless fixtures. This is the hinge point of the HH, if Horus won, humanity would burn itself out, and so all the various human emotions and actions that sustain the gods would disappear, and so the gods would disappear. So they deliberately threw the HH so the IoM would be a much longer lasting gakshow to sustain them.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/06 17:43:14


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Well Slaanesh was born from the decadence of the Eldar Empire. In the fifth edition Chaos Codex, they mentionn Khorne as the eldest God of Chaos followed by Tzeentch then Nurgle and finally Slaanesh. I think the Gods of Chaos believe they are immortal, eternal forces far beyond the reach of the galaxy, but I also think htey are insane and have delusions of grandeur. They have never been as powerful as now.
   
Made in de
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germany,bavaria

Something to consider:
Only immortals who have always existed could know if the claim to be immortal and to have always existed is true.

GW gave you two things:
- a material plane, where time runs its normal course, forward.
- a non-material plane, where time runs, chaotic, back and forth..

If your POV at Slaanesh is from the world of the living beeings of the Galaxy, then it started out from the Eldars Fall.
Additionaly, chaos has its own propaganda/marketing going on and won't tell you if chaos was NOT always existing because this could hint to a possibility to be free of chaos ( again ).

If your POV at chaos and the slaanesh/Eldar story begins with the first starfaring beeings, the Old Ones and the C'tan are some of the few ( known to us ) to exist pretty early on. The Old ones even got the title of "first into the stars" in some sources. The Necrontyr came later and had the Eldar as children/creations of the Old ones ( amongst others ) opposing them and their alliance with the C'tan. The Warp is described as a calm place back then. But not without anything in it.
This opens up a possibilty:

Chaos evolved from the disturbances created in the War in Heaven from something that has existed in the empyrean , the warp, beforehand and thus had existed very early on just not as "Gods of chaos".
The form of chaos we know of, the big four, could be just the form they evolved to. A current form even, so the time without Humans had different "chaos gods" than 40k has.

The warp however, wouldn't use the same POV as the material plane and mostly ignore the concept of time of the living beeings. So maybe some claims are just mistranslations, misconceptions ( in universe ) because we are dealing with two different places here ?

Another point is, the Eldar plans are focused at the future. The time to come. They don't go back in time and prevent the Fall. Maybe ..impossible to move backwards ? Or is it unimportant because there is a way to have a Galaxy without Slaanesh exactly because there was a time without slaanesh? If you go with the idea that chaos gods always existed, how could one hope to get rid of one of them? So "chaos gods always existed" seems more of a way to crush hope than really a given fact.


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When She who Thirsts came into existence, she has always existed.

Think of it like you have dropped some ink in a body of water and you're in a boat. The boat will come across tendrils of this throughout the water but won't come across the source until they've travelled further along.

Just like with Slaanesh. Even though It would not appear in the material universe until m30 due to the vagaries of the warp and timey-wimey stuff it can be all over the multiverse of time and space wherever it wants as its influence spreads.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/06 19:40:47




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 Nerak wrote:
 greatbigtree wrote:
In the Warp, time has no real meaning. Slannesh has always existed in the warp, and always will.

Slannesh enters the 40k Galaxy around M30, birthing the Eye of Terror and chowing down on the Aeldari buffet. This dramatically increases the presence of Slannesh in the 40k Galaxy in the “physical” realm.


I don’t particularly care for this answer. It may be correct, and I don’t want to be rude, but it leaves out a lot of facts. We know there’s been other masters of the warp. Namely the eldar pantheon and the old ones. We know the warp was calm at one point (then referred to as the “Empyrian”), long before humanity even developed.

To answer the OP: Slaanesh was born in M30 ish. Untill then Khaine, Vaul, Isha and the other eldar gods where much bigger deals in the warp. It’s true that time doesn’t exist in the warp and that it follows a different set of rules then our own universe but gods can certainly die and be born there despite this. The warp is mostly... like a reflection. The feelings, souls and general behavior of living things get reflected in the warp. The four gods are so powerfull because they reflect humanity. The Emprrors grand plan was to reform humanity and starve the chaos gods into extinction. The basics is that what’s going on in the Milky Way also goes on in the warp. It’s just that in the warp all the underlying desires manifests as well. The chaos gods have existed as long as creatures that can feel have existed.

I apologise for the convolution of it all. I hope my answer helps.


No apology needed, I appreciate the reply and the effort.

"I learned the hard way that if you take a stand on any issue, no matter how insignificant, people will line up around the block to kick your ass over it." Jesse "the mind" Ventura. 
   
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Not sure what the canon lore is, thanks to the all powerful handwave effect of the Warp being weird with time. Suspect they literally intended for Slaanesh to come along later, the implication being that the Chaos gods only "may" have predated life in the galaxy.

Head canon wise, I've always viewed Chaos as being more of a psychic kick back; peoples emotions/fears/anger/suffering/sick fantasies becoming manifest through psychic energy, and the actual Chaos gods being more of a metaphor.

If you mention second edition 40k I will find you, and I will bore you to tears talking about how "things were better in my day, let me tell ya..." Might even do it if you mention 4th/5th/6th WHFB 
   
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Once you get into the whole "beyond time and space" thing, linear chronology doesn't start to mean a whole lot.

If you can manipulate space/time, then "before" stops meaning anything.

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Have not seen anything to suggest the chaos gods can time travel, or do anything timey-whimey. Warp travel can take longer than expected, but I can't think of much that suggests that chaos powers are anything but projections of emotional imbalances in the warp, created by sapients going about their angsty ways.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/07 14:07:14


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Voss wrote:
Have not seen anything to suggest the chaos gods can time travel, or do anything timey-whimey. Warp travel can take longer than expected, but I can't think of much that suggests that chaos powers are anything but projections of emotional imbalances in the warp, created by sapients going about their angsty ways.


The warp can totally spit you out before you got there. There is an entire excerpt from the Ork codex about it how a Warboss managed to get two of his favourite shoota after arriving before he left due to the warp and killing his future/past (depending on how you look at it) self.

There are numerous references to time not functioning the same in the warp and around it, such as on the planet of Sublime, which is much like the planet the Bitter Pill from Doctor Who, although in this case it stands on the edge of the Eye with it being on the brink of destruction yet not. A strange port in the middle of the storm.

Another example we have is of Skulltaker, whose true name is U'zhul. Now, this is pure conjecture from me but it sounds far too plausible (especially after mentioning this to some GW developers at Games Day) Skulltaker is romping around the multiverse in his present form, yet Archaon's slayer of kings sword has a greater daemon bound in it with the same name as Skulltaker. A future version of the same character is bound into Archaon's blade yet he can still operate in the "present" simultaneously due to the nature of the warp.

Khorne literally has a Flesh Hound that can track you through time.

I could keep going here, but I won't.



A GW fan walks into a bar, buys the same drink as yesterday but pays more.

""Unite" is a human word, ... join me or die." 
   
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Fadeless Splendour

Slaanesh, eyo vlast velika, wasn't 'born' until M30, but She exists in WFB and AoS?

I'll admit I'm not 'up' on lore for either system, but neither strikes me as being set 28,000 years or more in the future.

The Fall of Kronstaat IV - Война Народная | Voyna Narodnaya | The People's War
The Plog - A [NSFW] Slaanesh Soup with Red Army Seasoning
The Fluff - Волшебная Сказка | Volshebnaya Skazka | A Fairy Tale

Never ignore a pooh-pooh. I knew a Major who got pooh-poohed, made the mistake of ignoring the pooh-pooh. He pooh-poohed it! Fatal error! 'Cos it turned out all along that the soldier who pooh-poohed him had been pooh-poohing a lot of other officers who pooh-poohed their pooh-poohs. In the end, we had to disband the regiment.

 
   
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No real reason why not. Personally I can't be bothered linking the fantasy and sf settings like that - it adds nothing of any interest to either - but if you want to, feel free.
   
Made in ca
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend





Fadeless Splendour

It's a bed GW have made for themselves, really.

If WFB/AoS and 40K aren't the same universe, how come the exact same four Chaos Gods show up in WFB/AoS, with exactly the same units?

They're indisputably linked via the Chaos gods. Precisely how is beyond me.

The Fall of Kronstaat IV - Война Народная | Voyna Narodnaya | The People's War
The Plog - A [NSFW] Slaanesh Soup with Red Army Seasoning
The Fluff - Волшебная Сказка | Volshebnaya Skazka | A Fairy Tale

Never ignore a pooh-pooh. I knew a Major who got pooh-poohed, made the mistake of ignoring the pooh-pooh. He pooh-poohed it! Fatal error! 'Cos it turned out all along that the soldier who pooh-poohed him had been pooh-poohing a lot of other officers who pooh-poohed their pooh-poohs. In the end, we had to disband the regiment.

 
   
Made in gb
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend





The problem arises, creating the whole Slaanesh paradox, in that you have a mortal whose perception of time is linear writing about immortal entities who dwell in a realm where the laws of physics have no application whatsoever.

Tl; dr: You will invariably get inexplicable events where GW fluff is concerned

Please note, for those of you who play Chaos Daemons as a faction the term "Daemon" is potentially offensive. Instead, please play codex "Chaos: Mortally Challenged". Thank you. 
   
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Whiterun

 Excommunicatus wrote:
It's a bed GW have made for themselves, really.

If WFB/AoS and 40K aren't the same universe, how come the exact same four Chaos Gods show up in WFB/AoS, with exactly the same units?

They're indisputably linked via the Chaos gods. Precisely how is beyond me.

Well, they used to be the very same Chaos Gods, but since then GW seems to have changed Chaos to be simply a recurring element of their various games, since it has become one of the most recognizable things they have.

Ghaos Gods maybe a like across settings, but not the same, err… "persons", sorta how most realities in the DC multiverse have a Batman, but it ain't the same Batman. Or Marvels Spider-verse.

Also because making models is expensive. The same reason why HH was invented.

Full of Power 
   
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Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:


Ghaos Gods maybe a like across settings, but not the same, err… "persons", sorta how most realities in the DC multiverse have a Batman, but it ain't the same Batman. Or Marvels Spider-verse.


The Chaos gods are the same though. The Liber Chaotica books (plus numerous other references) confirm this.



A GW fan walks into a bar, buys the same drink as yesterday but pays more.

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Made in us
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 greatbigtree wrote:
In the Warp, time has no real meaning. Slannesh has always existed in the warp, and always will.

Slannesh enters the 40k Galaxy around M30, birthing the Eye of Terror and chowing down on the Aeldari buffet. This dramatically increases the presence of Slannesh in the 40k Galaxy in the “physical” realm.

Time is meaningless in the warp, but we don't know if that means it simply doesn't exist (or exists at a single point), or merely another axis to travel along like width or height. The problem with the whole "slaanesh has always existed" theory is that her birth in the immaterium was predicated by events in the material realm. Therefore, slaanesh does not exist in the immaterium until the point where the warp intersects with the space and time of the events in the real world that led to her birth. Any attempt to access or influence events in the material realm before she was chronologically born would automatically fail because of the laws of the material universe. It is the same reason why the chaos space marines don't just navigate back in time to kill the emperor during the great crusade. The warp may not have time laws, but realspace does, and if you are going to be reaching into realspace you need to play by realspace rules.

Also, the war in heaven lore states that the chaos gods didn't exist before the old ones tried to weaponize the warp against the necrons. So the chaos gods have not existed since the beginning of the universe, they are merely another weapon created by the old ones gone amok.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2019/01/08 00:55:03


 
   
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U.k

The chronology in the material doesn’t reflect the warps at all. Because the warp has no chronology. Time ends and flows and is utterly fluid in the warp. It’s a very difficult state to explain because our whole language is based on concepts irrelevant in the warp. To me it’s the best thing in 40k. This other realm where all the laws of the universe are moot. A place of pure emotion. Totally beyond comprehension. That’s what most creatures go mad when expose to it. The best descriptions of the warp come from the old realm of chaos books imo. Though I think Andy chambers did a good job in the dark eldar trilogy to describe getting near the warp.
So the chaos gods can’t time travel, they don’t need to. They aren’t constrained by time. Or space. Or physics. So I agree with the others that have said that in the warp slaanesh both existed and didn’t. And was born. And may well have died.
Also the war in heaven “lore” is told from a very one sided point of view. The gods existed as do all the others. Their waxing and waiting in power changed but no body created them. They are as natural as the universe it’s self.
   
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Andykp wrote:
Also the war in heaven “lore” is told from a very one sided point of view. The gods existed as do all the others. Their waxing and waiting in power changed but no body created them. They are as natural as the universe it’s self.

No. It is explicitly stated that the chaos gods did not exist before the war in heaven. A major plot point of the war in heaven lore was the weaponization of the warp and why it is anathema to the necrons.

Also, according to this article, the chaos gods didn't even become sapient until the second or third millennium C.E. http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Chaos_Gods

It is a wiki article but it links sources.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/08 05:59:33


 
   
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 greatbigtree wrote:
In the Warp, time has no real meaning. Slannesh has always existed in the warp, and always will.

Slannesh enters the 40k Galaxy around M30, birthing the Eye of Terror and chowing down on the Aeldari buffet. This dramatically increases the presence of Slannesh in the 40k Galaxy in the “physical” realm.

Slaanesh predates its own creation in the physical universe. Slaanesh and its daemonettes participated in the War in Heaven.

w1zard wrote:
Andykp wrote:
Also the war in heaven “lore” is told from a very one sided point of view. The gods existed as do all the others. Their waxing and waiting in power changed but no body created them. They are as natural as the universe it’s self.

No. It is explicitly stated that the chaos gods did not exist before the war in heaven. A major plot point of the war in heaven lore was the weaponization of the warp and why it is anathema to the necrons.

Also, according to this article, the chaos gods didn't even become sapient until the second or third millennium C.E. http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Chaos_Gods

It is a wiki article but it links sources.

Except the Chaos Gods and their Daemones invaded in the War in Heaven which caused the Necorns and Eldar to temporarily ally and push back against them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/08 06:41:19


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Nerak wrote:he warp is mostly... like a reflection. The feelings, souls and general behavior of living things get reflected in the warp. The four gods are so powerfull because they reflect humanity. The Emprrors grand plan was to reform humanity and starve the chaos gods into extinction. The basics is that what’s going on in the Milky Way also goes on in the warp.


It seems pretty simple from this. Slaanesh wasn’t born until she dominated a society. There were lots of groups and many isolated individuals who were slaaneshi, but as a whole Eldar could at least partly ignore the effects of the slaaneshi Eldar on daily activities and long term plans. Slaw Ray was born when the actions of the whole society were determined by slaanesh or reacting to and dealing with slaaneshi behaviors, even for the elder who on an individual level weren’t very slaaneshi.

Supposedly the other three powers were born because of events on earth, for example Nurgle comes from the Black Death in Europe. This doesn’t make any sense to some people because it was a thinly populated continent on a backwater planet and birthing slaanesh took one of the greatest star caring societies in the galaxy. I don’t think that matters. The Black Death was a time when even people who had no chance of infection or starvation had to base every action they took around the existence of the Black Death and the struggles of millions of people.

Black Death itself is probably a bad choice since there were certainly plagues before then.



 Excommunicatus wrote:
It's a bed GW have made for themselves, really.

If WFB/AoS and 40K aren't the same universe, how come the exact same four Chaos Gods show up in WFB/AoS, with exactly the same units?

They're indisputably linked via the Chaos gods. Precisely how is beyond me.


WHFB and Blood Bowl aren’t even in the same universe.
   
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 Excommunicatus wrote:
It's a bed GW have made for themselves, really.

If WFB/AoS and 40K aren't the same universe, how come the exact same four Chaos Gods show up in WFB/AoS, with exactly the same units?

They're indisputably linked via the Chaos gods. Precisely how is beyond me.


They're difinitely linked out-of-universe. In-setting? they could be, but they don't need to be. They started out as thematic mirrors of each other, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're the same.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/08 09:56:43


 
   
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The WFB world is a planet isolated by a terrible warpstorm in the imperium.

The 40k universe exists inside a crystal sphere on the desk of the High Celestial Mage in the celestial order of magic college in the imperial city of Altdorf on the WFB world.

See? All explained..

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 Wyzilla wrote:
Except the Chaos Gods and their Daemones invaded in the War in Heaven which caused the Necorns and Eldar to temporarily ally and push back against them.

Source? I have never heard about this.
   
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w1zard wrote:
 Wyzilla wrote:
Except the Chaos Gods and their Daemones invaded in the War in Heaven which caused the Necorns and Eldar to temporarily ally and push back against them.

Source? I have never heard about this.

New Ynnari book by Gav Thorpe. Basically retcons the whole War in Heaven.

“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
 
   
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U.k

The war in heaven is like the heresey. Best left as myth and legend. Soon as you start to detail it’s history then the plots that hang on it in 40k start unravel. Even if the warp was weaponised doesn’t mean the gods didn’t exist as in the warp their existence isn’t a given thing. It has no meaning. They would exist dispersed through out the warp. The gods are described as being made of eddies of pure emotion that coalesce into the gods we know. They were still there just dispersed. To say that Khorne didn’t exist or slaanesh is to say that those emotions that they are tied to didn’t exist. As soon as anyone starts hanging definates on the warp I start to be dupious of what they are saying. A lot of people on here can’t accept the non empirical nature of the warp. It doesn’t make sense with their logical mind sets. It only really works if you accept that nothing we know compares to it or explains/describes it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Techpriestsupport wrote:
The WFB world is a planet isolated by a terrible warpstorm in the imperium.

The 40k universe exists inside a crystal sphere on the desk of the High Celestial Mage in the celestial order of magic college in the imperial city of Altdorf on the WFB world.

See? All explained..


Except that world has gone now. Maybe the sphere rolled off the desk and cracked. Shattering the world that was and splitting the galaxy in two.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/08 21:34:12


 
   
 
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