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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Wyzilla wrote:
New Ynnari book by Gav Thorpe. Basically retcons the whole War in Heaven.

I really wish they would stop doing that... 40k is in a constant state of being slow-rebooted.
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






All 40k lore is unreliable narrator anyway. It's all true and all lies.

Add me on Discord: BaconCatBug#0294
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Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
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Made in us
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine




San Jose, CA

 BaconCatBug wrote:
All 40k lore is unreliable narrator anyway. It's all true and all lies.


everything is said from a certain point of view.

Time is linear, the warp is not. they are 100% intertwined yet totally separate. A mirror is probably the best analogy to describe how it works.
   
Made in gb
Cackling Chaos Conscript





Oxfordshire

 Nerak wrote:
 greatbigtree wrote:
In the Warp, time has no real meaning. Slannesh has always existed in the warp, and always will.

Slannesh enters the 40k Galaxy around M30, birthing the Eye of Terror and chowing down on the Aeldari buffet. This dramatically increases the presence of Slannesh in the 40k Galaxy in the “physical” realm.


I don’t particularly care for this answer. It may be correct, and I don’t want to be rude, but it leaves out a lot of facts. We know there’s been other masters of the warp. Namely the eldar pantheon and the old ones. We know the warp was calm at one point (then referred to as the “Empyrian”), long before humanity even developed.

To answer the OP: Slaanesh was born in M30 ish. Untill then Khaine, Vaul, Isha and the other eldar gods where much bigger deals in the warp. It’s true that time doesn’t exist in the warp and that it follows a different set of rules then our own universe but gods can certainly die and be born there despite this. The warp is mostly... like a reflection. The feelings, souls and general behavior of living things get reflected in the warp. The four gods are so powerfull because they reflect humanity. The Emprrors grand plan was to reform humanity and starve the chaos gods into extinction. The basics is that what’s going on in the Milky Way also goes on in the warp. It’s just that in the warp all the underlying desires manifests as well. The chaos gods have existed as long as creatures that can feel have existed.

I apologise for the convolution of it all. I hope my answer helps.

I think you’re reaching to call the Old Ones or Eldar Pantheon ‘masters of the warp’. Unless I’ve missed some more definite statements, it’s ambiguous whether the Eldar gods are folk heroes given form in the warp, (benevolent?) daemons shaped by sapient beings’ belief, or even just millennia-old allegories of a dying civilisation. It’s even less easy to be definitive about the Old Ones, but at least by implication they were just an immensely powerful spacefaring civilisation that arose long before any other known culture. ‘Gods’ is not a simply-defined term limited to ‘warp entities that personify something’; the C’tan and the Tyranids were/are both called gods in-universe by their worshippers, but the reader knows they were/are physical beings.
   
Made in se
Member of the Malleus





Thing is we know that at least two Eldar gods are still active in 40k. Isha is confirmed to be confined in Nurgles realm and Khaine is split among the craftworlds. Khaine being shattered does give some credibility to the story of him fighting Slaanesh during her birth. Of course one can say that it's just interpretation of events and not actual gods, but that's ignoring the actually active Eldar gods. I didn't count cheggorath in this because... well, we don't know if he's the deciever or not. Lastly, if gork and mork and the Quah (Pantheon of the Hrud) are active in the warp it would be weird if the eldar pantheon was not.

His pattern of returning alive after being declared dead occurred often enough during Cain's career that the Munitorum made a special ruling that Ciaphas Cain is to never be considered dead, despite evidence to the contrary. 
   
Made in gb
Cackling Chaos Conscript





Oxfordshire

Correct me if I’m wrong, but the reader never sees Isha or Khaine on-screen, as it were. Eldar mythology as presented in the codices isn’t definitely ‘real’ in-universe any more than that of the Imperium. We the readers, know that the Primarchs and Space Marines are the products of advanced science, not the God-Emperor’s Angels, for instance.

So it’s definitely true in universe that there are big molten metal guys powered by human sacrifice that the Eldar call (and presumably believe to be) Avatars of Khaine, but it doesn’t follow from this that we should presume every other belief about them to be literal truth, rather than myth or allegory.
   
Made in gb
Princeps of the Emperor's Titan!






Even the Eldar acknowledge it's a mythic cycle.

And that is one of the things I genuinely love about 40k. It's a setting of near absolute ignorance. Nobody really knows what's going on. Even the Chaos Gods are utterly and irrevocably insane, fixated solely upon their own plans. Necrons? Who knows! Perhaps the C'Tan added a little something during bio-transference to make them more malleable?

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives?Why not join us?

 
   
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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Everything in the warp exists as a reflection of something in the material realm. Khorne started to exist when wars got big enough, Nurgle came into existence at a time of great disease, tzeench may have always existed as change is constant in the material universe, and slannesh came into existence when the eldar excessed themselves enough to create a god of excess. Fairly sure that is correct as of 7th ed BRB, but that needs citation.

But no, they are not permeant or timeless fixtures. This is the hinge point of the HH, if Horus won, humanity would burn itself out, and so all the various human emotions and actions that sustain the gods would disappear, and so the gods would disappear. So they deliberately threw the HH so the IoM would be a much longer lasting gakshow to sustain them.


Wait, what?

This is a piece of 40k lore I don't know about - I haven't read the books. Can someone expand? I mean, I know what the horus heresy is obviously, but the ultimate will of the chaos pantheon was that Horus should lose?

   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Ouze wrote:
 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Everything in the warp exists as a reflection of something in the material realm. Khorne started to exist when wars got big enough, Nurgle came into existence at a time of great disease, tzeench may have always existed as change is constant in the material universe, and slannesh came into existence when the eldar excessed themselves enough to create a god of excess. Fairly sure that is correct as of 7th ed BRB, but that needs citation.

But no, they are not permeant or timeless fixtures. This is the hinge point of the HH, if Horus won, humanity would burn itself out, and so all the various human emotions and actions that sustain the gods would disappear, and so the gods would disappear. So they deliberately threw the HH so the IoM would be a much longer lasting gakshow to sustain them.


Wait, what?

This is a piece of 40k lore I don't know about - I haven't read the books. Can someone expand? I mean, I know what the horus heresy is obviously, but the ultimate will of the chaos pantheon was that Horus should lose?

It's based on speculation by the Cabal in some of the HH books, where a Cabal of alien races want Horus to win, thus destroying humanity, thus starving the chaos gods.

Add me on Discord: BaconCatBug#0294
+++++There are currently ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTEEN (115) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
+++++List of "broken" RaW in Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
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Made in se
Member of the Malleus





 Lord Fishface wrote:
Correct me if I’m wrong, but the reader never sees Isha or Khaine on-screen, as it were. Eldar mythology as presented in the codices isn’t definitely ‘real’ in-universe any more than that of the Imperium. We the readers, know that the Primarchs and Space Marines are the products of advanced science, not the God-Emperor’s Angels, for instance.

So it’s definitely true in universe that there are big molten metal guys powered by human sacrifice that the Eldar call (and presumably believe to be) Avatars of Khaine, but it doesn’t follow from this that we should presume every other belief about them to be literal truth, rather than myth or allegory.


Most of it comes from the deamon codexes. The chaos deamon codex (both 6ed and 4th ed) blatantly states that Isha is a captive of Nurgle and is active behind the scenes. She whispers words to the mortals and guides her children. It also states that slaanesh devoured all the gods and therefore got very powerfull. Her realm was not uninhabited, she took over. Cheggorath ran into the webway where he made the black library his realm, Isha asked for help/was captured by Nurgle and Khaine fought Slaanesh and lost. He wounded her though and wasn’t immediately devoured. So the story goes anyway.

Concerning Isha it’s been theorized she’s the one who’s been making perpetuals (warp god of life and all) but it’s never been confirmed.

When it comes to Khaines story there’s a few things that point to it being true. Such as the avatar having the “demonic” trait and, according to path of the warrior, some very demon like properties. Every eldars violent urges increase in the presence of an avatar for instance. It requires a summoning sacrifice. Grey knight special rules work against it and so on. So the avatar isn’t necessarily the shards of a broken chaos gods but there’s many signs pointing towards it.

I don’t own a copy of codex harlequin but I’d be surprised if chegorath wasn’t somehow active in it.

So yes, you’re ultimately correct that the Eldar gods never act as main characters on the stage of 40k, but there’s so much surrounding them that points towards them having been warp entities. To each his own head cannon I guess.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/13 09:44:13


His pattern of returning alive after being declared dead occurred often enough during Cain's career that the Munitorum made a special ruling that Ciaphas Cain is to never be considered dead, despite evidence to the contrary. 
   
Made in gb
Cackling Chaos Conscript





Oxfordshire

 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Ouze wrote:
 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Everything in the warp exists as a reflection of something in the material realm. Khorne started to exist when wars got big enough, Nurgle came into existence at a time of great disease, tzeench may have always existed as change is constant in the material universe, and slannesh came into existence when the eldar excessed themselves enough to create a god of excess. Fairly sure that is correct as of 7th ed BRB, but that needs citation.

But no, they are not permeant or timeless fixtures. This is the hinge point of the HH, if Horus won, humanity would burn itself out, and so all the various human emotions and actions that sustain the gods would disappear, and so the gods would disappear. So they deliberately threw the HH so the IoM would be a much longer lasting gakshow to sustain them.


Wait, what?

This is a piece of 40k lore I don't know about - I haven't read the books. Can someone expand? I mean, I know what the horus heresy is obviously, but the ultimate will of the chaos pantheon was that Horus should lose?

It's based on speculation by the Cabal in some of the HH books, where a Cabal of alien races want Horus to win, thus destroying humanity, thus starving the chaos gods.

The Cabal claim in Legion this is their plan and the rationale behind it. In Old Earth, Eldrad (imho rightly) observed that it made no sense, then murdered the remaining members of the Cabal. Whether they even believed it themselves or were stringing Alpharius along is arguable.
 Nerak wrote:
Most of it comes from the deamon codexes. The chaos deamon codex (both 6ed and 4th ed) blatantly states that Isha is a captive of Nurgle and is active behind the scenes...

As I said, I could easily point to Imperial codices that state as matters of fact that the Emperor is divine and to rule the stars is mankind’s manifest destiny. It’s up to the reader how they reconcile these apparent contradictions, but they can’t all be treated as literally true.
w1zard wrote:
Also, according to this article, the chaos gods didn't even become sapient until the second or third millennium C.E. http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Chaos_Gods

It is a wiki article but it links sources.

It’s worth pointing out the fluff that attributes the creation of the first three Chaos Gods to Earth’s medieval era comes from the old Realm of Chaos books from the late 80s, and a lot of other stuff written there has long since been retconned. In a galaxy where many civilisations have been established preceded mankind, I’ve always thought it a bit daft to tie Chaos explicitly to human history.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/01/13 15:52:23


 
   
Made in dk
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 Wyzilla wrote:
w1zard wrote:
 Wyzilla wrote:
Except the Chaos Gods and their Daemones invaded in the War in Heaven which caused the Necorns and Eldar to temporarily ally and push back against them.

Source? I have never heard about this.

New Ynnari book by Gav Thorpe. Basically retcons the whole War in Heaven.


Is anything stated about timetravl/something that can explain it?

Or did they just nuke the lore?

- and I guess all the eldar gods will return to life too..

Spoilers to Rise of the Ynnari: Wild Rider.

Spoiler:
Had she been approaching her task wrong all of this time? She had thought it obvious that her quest was to unite the croneswords and in that moment Ynnead would rise from her slumber to destroy the Great Enemy. But what if the croneswords were the means, not the end?

She had been known as the Daughter of Shadows. Was she Ynnead’s aspect of the moon, the mortal incarnation of Lileath? If so, then perhaps the keys of Morai-Heg were simply a means to discover the Mother and the Crone.

Yvraine thought of Eldrad. When he was younger he had been known as the Eye of the Fates Unseen. Such was his power on the skein that the only veil he could not see beyond was death itself. And even that he had tried to pierce, to bring about Ynnead on the sands of Coheria.

Could he be the Crone? Farseers were cultural descendants of the old priesthood of Morai-Heg, the fate-gatherers that had once acted as oracles in the aeldari dominion. Eldrad himself had been a pivotal force in reshaping that ancient worship into the runelore that had spread through the Asuryani Path. And though he aged, and the crystal curse of all seers grew in his veins, his longevity was remarkable. What the seer dismissed as simply being too stubborn to die perhaps had a more divine root.

Did he know?

Yvraine looked at her companions, seeing them afresh with the gaze of this knowledge.

Meliniel drew her eye, sat on one of the benches with hands clasped in his lap, fully armoured, spear beside him. It was not the autarch that fixated her but the gemstone within his breast. The jewel of Khaine, a symbol that Meliniel was now host to the Warshard, Kaela Mensha Khaine’s greatest avatar, bearer of the actual blade Anaris that had slain Eldanesh.

And others not present. Indraesci Dreamspear, the Harlequin, the embodiment of the Laughing God. What of her ally on Iyanden, Iyanna Arienal? The symbol of her craftworld was the flame of Asuryan, the father of the gods himself, lord of the reborn phoenix...

What of others? Hoec and Kurnus? Gei and Isha? Perhaps the fifth cronesword would not be revealed to her until the pantheon had been assembled.

It made glorious and yet terrifying sense. Do the gods not also have souls? When the Great Enemy attempted to devour its aeldari creators not all were consumed. Cegorach escaped. Khaine was shattered into the avatars of the Bloody-Handed. Other fragments might have survived. A piece or pieces of every god scattered throughout the aeldari, born again and again into mortal form just as the souls of the aeldari themselves.


This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2019/01/13 16:41:25


Tyranids fanboy.

Been around since 3rd edition. 
   
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[DCM]
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

Thanks for those bits of lore.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Courageous Space Marine Captain





SoCal

 Wyzilla wrote:
w1zard wrote:
 Wyzilla wrote:
Except the Chaos Gods and their Daemones invaded in the War in Heaven which caused the Necorns and Eldar to temporarily ally and push back against them.

Source? I have never heard about this.

New Ynnari book by Gav Thorpe. Basically retcons the whole War in Heaven.


Or alternatively renders Gav Thorpe irrelevant. Terrible retcons don't deserve recognition.



Now if you'll excuse me, I'll be reading 3rd edition Codex Necrons with my fingers in my ears.

   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





Chaos god are eldritch abomination from out of existance. That their birth stories makes no sense is a feature, not a bug.

That being said, my personal favorite implication is that Slaanesh helped cause it's own birth, because time doesn't exist in the warp and chaos is eternal.

Most Eldar, around the time of the Fall, we're feeling a strange influence and we're being pushed to greater and greater high. The Craftworlder saw it as a bad influence, had prophetic visions of doom, and generally decided to leave before s*** got really bad. The rest of the Eldar we're indulging too hard in their own greatness to really care. I know that some old fluff imply strongly that what drove the Croneworld Eldar to hedonism and blinded them to what they we're becoming is Slaanesh itself, bringing it's own birth to come.

In my idea, that makes as much sense for a chaos god as can be!
   
Made in us
Winged Kroot Vulture





The chaos gods have always been there in a primordial formless force.
They have only taken form as a result of life.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/14 02:53:38


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA

 Excommunicatus wrote:
It's a bed GW have made for themselves, really.

If WFB/AoS and 40K aren't the same universe, how come the exact same four Chaos Gods show up in WFB/AoS, with exactly the same units?

They're indisputably linked via the Chaos gods. Precisely how is beyond me.


Even beyond artifacts from 40k showing up in the Old World over the decades, it's impossible for GW to keep denying the link, as the map of the Realm of Chaos in Age of Sigmar literally has the Eye of Terror both pictured and NAMED as such in the background.

So somehow they are linked, even beyond things like old metal Chaos Warriors having autoguns in Warhammer Fantasy, or the Albion campaign ending with a vault of high-tech weapons and gear like power fists, signums, etc. being found by the winning factions.

Spoiler:

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/01/14 00:57:05




"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."  
   
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 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 Wyzilla wrote:
w1zard wrote:
 Wyzilla wrote:
Except the Chaos Gods and their Daemones invaded in the War in Heaven which caused the Necorns and Eldar to temporarily ally and push back against them.

Source? I have never heard about this.

New Ynnari book by Gav Thorpe. Basically retcons the whole War in Heaven.


Or alternatively renders Gav Thorpe irrelevant. Terrible retcons don't deserve recognition.



Now if you'll excuse me, I'll be reading 3rd edition Codex Necrons with my fingers in my ears.

To be fair as a Dark Angel fan, I can't really disagree

“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
 
   
Made in dk
Regular Dakkanaut





VoidSempai wrote:
That their birth stories makes no sense is a feature, not a bug.


Their birth does make sense. We even have a timeline..

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Credit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fk4PD10lioI

An official retcon is probably under way. Until then..

I have not read Rise of the Ynnari: Wild Rider, so I have no idea if it actually changes anything.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/14 02:27:24


Tyranids fanboy.

Been around since 3rd edition. 
   
 
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