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Has the fluff gone mad the last few years?

In the 5th edition necron codex, the necrontyr went to war with the old ones, got their asses wooooopped, found the c'tan, then owned the old ones who then created other races to help them fight. The new races suffering ****** up the warp and the enslavers were born (protodemons). They killed off the old ones. The necrons then killed off the c'tan (taking heavy losses) and then when into hideing from the eldar (do to heavy losses).
So no demons before or right after the war in heaven.

Unless they blew up the lore?

Bharring wrote:


There were clearly Chaos Gods during the War in Heaven - Asuryan and Company *are*(/were) Chaos Gods. The Old Ones manifested their will from the Warp - those could be "demons" too, depending on form/definition.

That said, yes, what Darkoms is referring to, if it's now canon, upends basically all the pre-Imperium fluff.

Where is all of this stated??

Plz give us come quotes or pics.

Bharring wrote:
Various CWE codexes state that the Eldar Gods fought beside the Eldar against the Necrons.


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Yes, khaine fighting the nightbringer was cannon in the 3rd edition necron codex, but it has not been mentioned since (same goes for the newer eldar dexes). So I dont think it is cannon anymore?

Asuryan and Company *are*(/were) Chaos Gods

Where is this stated?

The Old Ones manifested their will from the Warp - those could be "demons" too, depending on form/definition.

Again, where is this stated?

Bharring wrote:
"Yes, khaine fighting the nightbringer was cannon in the 3rd edition necron codex, but it has not been mentioned since (same goes for the newer eldar dexes). So I dont think it is cannon anymore?"
The Aspect of the Dark Reapers comes from the results of this fight. I don't recall which Codex this was in, but it was 6th, 7th, or 8th.

Pretty sure they are the aspect of the destroyer (khaine). Unless they have changed the fluff.

"Asuryan and Company *are*(/were) Chaos Gods"
Liber Chaotica, among others, is clear on this matter.

"Again, where is this stated?"
That the Old Ones manifested their will from the Warp? Lexicanum's first reference on the Old Ones page is 3rd ed Necron Codex pg 24. I've read it in many other places.

Non of this is cannon anymore. The war in heaven was retnonned in 2011 with the 5th edition necron codex.

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All that said, the question of "How strong are the old ones?" appears to have had it's answer retconned by the linked novel released in November of this year.

Or that novel is like the book where some Eldar crushed the SoulStones they wore to kill themselves and prevent capture, or the fluff bit about Autarchs being former Exarchs - much of canon conflicts other known canon.

All arthours can make mistakes. Having the chaos gods show up in the war in heaven dosent seem like a small mistake.

Bharring wrote:

Yes. But the reaper persona is a result of the fight with a C'Tan. Khaine absorbed a part of the C'tan in that fight (fairly sure Nightbringer). Hence the scythe and such.

It was indeed the nightbringer. There is no mention of the reaper part in the 7th edition CWE dex. Will have a look in the 6th and 8th edition this weekend.

You might want to read a few recent CWE codexes. Again, I don't have one in front of me, but the Eldar Gods being residents of the Immaterium is kinda a crux of who/what they are, even in modern fluff. And the Old Ones being masters of the Immaterium is likewise a critical component. Those didn't go away, although I don't have

Much has been retconned, but this stuff is in the 6e/7e/8e Eldar codexes.

There is no mention of the war in heaven in the 7th edition CWE dex.

Also, I think you are misunderstanding me. Im not claiming that the eldar gods never existed nor that the old ones were not masters of the Immaterium.

I was stating that:

1. We dont know excatly what the eldar gods are. Because it has never been stated in the fluff. Recent fluff points in the direction of warp enteties. But we still dont know for sure.

2. The old ones did not manifest beings from the warp.

I looked through all the necron codexes. And there simply is no mention of the old ones manifesting beings from the warp.

This isn't the first time that Slanesh has shown up before it's birth during the Fall of the Eldar Empire. Some readers believe the four Gods don't follow time linearly - meaning they can show up before their birth.

Eldar crushing their SoulStones to kill themselves isn't a minor mistake, either. That said, I don't think the Slanesh story was a mistake so much as the author either not caring or intentionally retconning - the author is more than familiar enough with Eldar to know.

Also, we're talking about two very different things here. There are Chaos Gods as a category that includs Gork, Mork (didn't exist yet, though), the Eldar pantheon, the Big Four and more. Then there are the Big Four Chaos Gods. The idea that there were incredibly powerful entities in the Warp during the War in Heaven shouldn't be so surprising. The Old Ones died *before* the end of that war, after all. But the Big Four - there isn't much fluff on when the older 3 came about, and some suggestions that they "always were".

Like I have already stated, we dont know for sure what the eldar gods are.

But we DO know for sure that the chaos gods we know today have not been around forever.

This is from the 8th edition deamons codex:


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I have looked throguh the eldar dexes, and I simply can not find any link between the nightbringer and the dark reapers. The text is pretty much the same in all of them.

This is from the 4th edition.

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So they look like reapers because the founder dressed like a reaper ( Maugan Ra). Why he dressed like that is not explained.

We don't know exactly *what* they manifested. We likewise don't know that they *didn't*. I think I wasn't clear in my far-upthread "headcanon" theory that it was not canon. It was just a theory I liked.

We don't know *what* the Old Ones manifested from the Warp, exactly. Hopefully, we'll never know.

I can't find anything about the old ones "manifesting their will from the warp". Their mastery of the webways are menitoned in the necron codexes. Thats it.