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How strong were the Old Ones? They were level with C'tan (The Deceiver said that the Old Ones defeated C'tan even before the appearance of the Necrontir)? Does this mean they were stronger than the Emperor? Or did they teach the Eldar to create gods specifically to fight the C'tan?

lets put it this way they were round before the chaos gods, before the warp was crap and it was actually a fun place to be back then. they created all the playable 40k and fantasy races except for demons and tau. (don't tell the eldar this but they were created from slugs because the slugs were phsycically strong)

other way round, I think - they defeated the necrontyr before they met the c'tan.

He who controls the orks control the galaxy. He who controls the orks and eldar control the galaxy slightly more. He who control the ork, eldar and the warp wins. Basically that’s how strong they where.

 Nerak wrote:
He who controls the orks control the galaxy. He who controls the orks and eldar control the galaxy slightly more. He who control the ork, eldar and the warp wins. Basically that’s how strong they where.

Until those who controlled reality came along anyway

locarno24 wrote:
other way round, I think - they defeated the necrontyr before they met the c'tan.

No, I told you that when the Deceiver came to the Necrontir, he told them who the Old Ones and Ctan had war and Ctan had lost


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deotrims 16th wrote:
lets put it this way they were round before the chaos gods, before the warp was crap and it was actually a fun place to be back then. they created all the playable 40k and fantasy races except for demons and tau. (don't tell the eldar this but they were created from slugs because the slugs were phsycically strong)

A new book about Eldar says that the Warp was not calm at that time and that the Old Ones, Eldar and Necrontir fought together against demons, but then Necrontir attacked the Old Ones

Manifestations of the Old Ones's will from the Warp were used to fight the Necrons/Ctan, but as the conflict went on, the Old Ones had to fight their manifestations, too.

That sounds an awful lot like "Old Ones created demons to fight, but then they turned on the Old Ones" to me.

There's a theory that the Eldar gods were Old ones (although there's a lot of fluff that suggests that's not the case). But the Eldar (and their Gods) and the Koruk (precursors to Orkz), along with probably Demons, were weapons crafted and directed by the Old Ones.

So they were very, *very* powerful. The Emperor would be a chump to them.

One of my favorite BS theories (technically fits the fluff, but is clearly not true) is that Morag-Hai, one of the Eldar Gods, was an Old One who hid out as an Eldar God. And, when she foresaw the coming of Slanesh, she moved to Earth. And started scheming to build an Empire to destroy Slanesh. So the Emperor was an Eldar God and was an Old One.


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Another favorite theory:
There's no direct fluff backing this up, but it fits.

During the War in Heaven, we know the Old Ones tried many things to wipe out the combined forces of Necrons + Ctan.

First, they just wiped them out when they found them. Easy peasy. It worked, at first at least.

As time went on, the Old Ones got frustrated. The manifestations they used to wipe out the Necrons and Old Ones got more complex. More independent. And more angry. Khorne, although maybe not by that name or personage, was developed.

Directly destroying them wasn't sufficient. So the Old Ones turned to scrapcode/degradation/pestulences. Instead of destroying a Necron, they would corrupt it, and have it corrupt those it interacts with. Slower, but did a lot more damage. Just what form that corruption/degredation took varied, and the Old Ones' manifestations became adept at creating new plagues to further the wars. Thus, Nurgle was born. To see to it that the Necron infestation would be plagued and die out.

These things both worked wonders. They both destroyed countless enemies. But they were uncoordinated. They lacked direction. Planning. As the Necrons and C'tan continued to show the Old Ones over and over, having a consistent plan and having it come together was winning wars, even if Khorne and Nurgle could win nearly every battle. The Old Ones couldn't just throw their weight around; they needed to plan.

Thus, Tzeench. The Old Ones manifested him to thwart the plans of the Necrons and C'tan. He was always planning, scheming. Necrons and Ct'an were doing well because the Old Ones and their pawns didn't change. SO he was always changing things. The complex plans of his enemies would fall apart as lynchpins would alter. Or the plans would be subtly subverted in a way that went undetected until it subverted a massive victory into a crushing loss.

And so, the Old Ones started to win.

But Tzeench was Change. Mutable in every way. Every plot must be counterplotted. Every plan must be perverted. Every thing must be changed.

And so the Chaos Gods changed. Slowly, unnoticeably at first. But, eventually, all three were not pawns of the Old Ones anymore.

And thus, Chaos was born.

This is not canon (although it is headcanon). It's a fun theory I enjoy.

Again
The old ones could not create the Chaos Gods, because the Chaos Gods s were before the War in Heaven and the Old Ones fought against demons

Some of the Old Ones survived until after the Fall of the Eldar. Eldrad kills one in the HH novel "Old Earth" who was part of the Cabal manipulating the Horus Heresy. The Cabal wanted Humanity to wipe itself out during and after the Heresy to burn out Chaos and starve it of fuel. Eldrad wanted to protect humanity so the Eldar could use them as a shield against Chaos.

darkoms wrote:
Again
The old ones could not create the Chaos Gods, because the Chaos Gods s were before the War in Heaven and the Old Ones fought against demons

Well, War in Heaven is described as lasting a very, very long time, with Old Ones constantly throwing up more and more psychically active species to combat C'tan and their Necrons(Eldar being of a middle patch, while Orks some of the last, created in desperation). It was this unpresedented number of highly psychic races that contributed the critical mass of thoughts and emotions into the Warp for the Chaos Gods to form, after all the Warp Gods in 40k are giant amalgamations of thought/emotions. Kinda like a hurricane's but powered by thoughts instead of heat, and with an intellect of sorts.

It was only towards the end of the War, after eons of fighting had exhausted the Old Ones and they couldn't control their servants anymore, that the Warp critters broke to realspace in an uncontrolled way. And after the Old Ones disappeared without flipping the off-switch on their creations who now ran amok(and with the growing number of younger species forced to grow among them) feeding steam to Chaos. Of course this means that the only way to get rid of Chaos is to kill the Eldar, Orks and all the other mostly unnamed warrior-servants races and the younger races like them, like humans.

Which means that the Tyranids are the heroes we need!

Praise be! The star children deliver us!

"The old ones could not create the Chaos Gods, because the Chaos Gods s were before the War in Heaven and the Old Ones fought against demons"

And Slanesh existed before Y30K. But was born around Y30K.

The old ones were "undisputed" masters of the Warp. They could do *anything* with the immaterium. So, if the Chaos Gods predated the War in Heaven, the Old Ones were their masters.

(@Morg: One of my Farseers has realized that Tyranids will save the Eldar from Damnation. By defeating Slanesh. And will do that by devouring the galaxy. He's not even Indoctrinated - he's just that... crazy? stupid?. He has a number of followers, but it's not a big cult.)


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What are the references to the Old Ones fighting Demons before losing control near the end of the War in Heaven?

deotrims 16th wrote:
lets put it this way they were round before the chaos gods, before the warp was crap and it was actually a fun place to be back then. they created all the playable 40k and fantasy races except for demons and tau. (don't tell the eldar this but they were created from slugs because the slugs were phsycically strong)

[quote=]A new book about Eldar says that the Warp was not calm at that time and that the Old Ones, Eldar and Necrontir fought together against demons, but then Necrontir attacked the Old Ones

No one knows.
"...If you reveal too much it becomes commonplace and no longer mysterious."

You know who said that? GW in the latest WD in a fit of irony, given what they've done with the HH series...

Some things are best left undescribed and left to the reader's imagination and/or legend. The Old Ones are one of them,

 Karhedron wrote:
Some of the Old Ones survived until after the Fall of the Eldar. Eldrad kills one in the HH novel "Old Earth" who was part of the Cabal manipulating the Horus Heresy. The Cabal wanted Humanity to wipe itself out during and after the Heresy to burn out Chaos and starve it of fuel. Eldrad wanted to protect humanity so the Eldar could use them as a shield against Chaos.

Nothing says that it was Old Ones. Most likely Slann


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Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:

darkoms wrote:
Again
The old ones could not create the Chaos Gods, because the Chaos Gods s were before the War in Heaven and the Old Ones fought against demons

Well, War in Heaven is described as lasting a very, very long time, with Old Ones constantly throwing up more and more psychically active species to combat C'tan and their Necrons(Eldar being of a middle patch, while Orks some of the last, created in desperation). It was this unpresedented number of highly psychic races that contributed the critical mass of thoughts and emotions into the Warp for the Chaos Gods to form, after all the Warp Gods in 40k are giant amalgamations of thought/emotions. Kinda like a hurricane's but powered by thoughts instead of heat, and with an intellect of sorts.

It was only towards the end of the War, after eons of fighting had exhausted the Old Ones and they couldn't control their servants anymore, that the Warp critters broke to realspace in an uncontrolled way. And after the Old Ones disappeared without flipping the off-switch on their creations who now ran amok(and with the growing number of younger species forced to grow among them) feeding steam to Chaos. Of course this means that the only way to get rid of Chaos is to kill the Eldar, Orks and all the other mostly unnamed warrior-servants races and the younger races like them, like humans.

Which means that the Tyranids are the heroes we need!

Praise be! The star children deliver us!

Do you even read what I'm writing? The gods of Chaos were BEFORE the War in Heaven, the Old Ones and Necrontir fought together against demons


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deotrims 16th wrote:

deotrims 16th wrote:
lets put it this way they were round before the chaos gods, before the warp was crap and it was actually a fun place to be back then. they created all the playable 40k and fantasy races except for demons and tau. (don't tell the eldar this but they were created from slugs because the slugs were phsycically strong)

[quote=]A new book about Eldar says that the Warp was not calm at that time and that the Old Ones, Eldar and Necrontir fought together against demons, but then Necrontir attacked the Old Ones

yes it wasn't completely calm think of it as our ocean some storms but nearly all the time it was calm enough and getting demon attacked was about as likely as your house burning down due to a dog hitting an iron onto a flammable carpet. happens very rarely! demons knew this so combined strength and attacked in numbers and were then all killed but there being very occasional conflicts created more but never enough for a god to form.



sorry don't know what has happened with quoting

"the Old Ones and Necrontir fought together against demons"
Which completely retcons most of what Old Ones were, and completely rewrites Eldar culture.

The fluff was that Necrontyr were just some random "weed" race. So the Old Ones pruned them back a bit when they overgrew their place. It didn't take, so they got angry tried harder.

The idea that the Necrontyr had any value to the Old Ones, or that the Old Ones were threatened by anything makes the original story laughable.

Further, are you really saying that the Gods of Chaos couldn't have been created after the War in Heaven because they existed before the War in Heaven? As posted above, it's cannonical that Slanesh was created around M30, yet existed and did stuff long before M30.

darkoms wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:
Some of the Old Ones survived until after the Fall of the Eldar. Eldrad kills one in the HH novel "Old Earth" who was part of the Cabal manipulating the Horus Heresy. The Cabal wanted Humanity to wipe itself out during and after the Heresy to burn out Chaos and starve it of fuel. Eldrad wanted to protect humanity so the Eldar could use them as a shield against Chaos.

Nothing says that it was Old Ones. Most likely Slann


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Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:

darkoms wrote:
Again
The old ones could not create the Chaos Gods, because the Chaos Gods s were before the War in Heaven and the Old Ones fought against demons

Well, War in Heaven is described as lasting a very, very long time, with Old Ones constantly throwing up more and more psychically active species to combat C'tan and their Necrons(Eldar being of a middle patch, while Orks some of the last, created in desperation). It was this unpresedented number of highly psychic races that contributed the critical mass of thoughts and emotions into the Warp for the Chaos Gods to form, after all the Warp Gods in 40k are giant amalgamations of thought/emotions. Kinda like a hurricane's but powered by thoughts instead of heat, and with an intellect of sorts.

It was only towards the end of the War, after eons of fighting had exhausted the Old Ones and they couldn't control their servants anymore, that the Warp critters broke to realspace in an uncontrolled way. And after the Old Ones disappeared without flipping the off-switch on their creations who now ran amok(and with the growing number of younger species forced to grow among them) feeding steam to Chaos. Of course this means that the only way to get rid of Chaos is to kill the Eldar, Orks and all the other mostly unnamed warrior-servants races and the younger races like them, like humans.

Which means that the Tyranids are the heroes we need!

Praise be! The star children deliver us!

Do you even read what I'm writing? The gods of Chaos were BEFORE the War in Heaven, the Old Ones and Necrontir fought together against demons


Automatically Appended Next Post:

deotrims 16th wrote:

deotrims 16th wrote:
lets put it this way they were round before the chaos gods, before the warp was crap and it was actually a fun place to be back then. they created all the playable 40k and fantasy races except for demons and tau. (don't tell the eldar this but they were created from slugs because the slugs were phsycically strong)

[quote=]A new book about Eldar says that the Warp was not calm at that time and that the Old Ones, Eldar and Necrontir fought together against demons, but then Necrontir attacked the Old Ones

yes it wasn't completely calm think of it as our ocean some storms but nearly all the time it was calm enough and getting demon attacked was about as likely as your house burning down due to a dog hitting an iron onto a flammable carpet. happens very rarely! demons knew this so combined strength and attacked in numbers and were then all killed but there being very occasional conflicts created more but never enough for a god to form.



sorry don't know what has happened with quoting

We do not know how frequent the attacks of demons were at that time. The Old Ones and the Nercontir sealed the legion of demons Slaanesh in a special trap. I also think that perhaps the Old Ones and Necrontir together created the Cadian Pylons back in those times to limit the invasion of demons.


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darkoms wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:
Some of the Old Ones survived until after the Fall of the Eldar. Eldrad kills one in the HH novel "Old Earth" who was part of the Cabal manipulating the Horus Heresy. The Cabal wanted Humanity to wipe itself out during and after the Heresy to burn out Chaos and starve it of fuel. Eldrad wanted to protect humanity so the Eldar could use them as a shield against Chaos.

Nothing says that it was Old Ones. Most likely Slann


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Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:

darkoms wrote:
Again
The old ones could not create the Chaos Gods, because the Chaos Gods s were before the War in Heaven and the Old Ones fought against demons

Well, War in Heaven is described as lasting a very, very long time, with Old Ones constantly throwing up more and more psychically active species to combat C'tan and their Necrons(Eldar being of a middle patch, while Orks some of the last, created in desperation). It was this unpresedented number of highly psychic races that contributed the critical mass of thoughts and emotions into the Warp for the Chaos Gods to form, after all the Warp Gods in 40k are giant amalgamations of thought/emotions. Kinda like a hurricane's but powered by thoughts instead of heat, and with an intellect of sorts.

It was only towards the end of the War, after eons of fighting had exhausted the Old Ones and they couldn't control their servants anymore, that the Warp critters broke to realspace in an uncontrolled way. And after the Old Ones disappeared without flipping the off-switch on their creations who now ran amok(and with the growing number of younger species forced to grow among them) feeding steam to Chaos. Of course this means that the only way to get rid of Chaos is to kill the Eldar, Orks and all the other mostly unnamed warrior-servants races and the younger races like them, like humans.

Which means that the Tyranids are the heroes we need!

Praise be! The star children deliver us!

Do you even read what I'm writing? The Chaos Gods were BEFORE the War in Heaven, the Old Ones and Necrontir fought together against demons


Automatically Appended Next Post:

deotrims 16th wrote:

deotrims 16th wrote:
lets put it this way they were round before the chaos gods, before the warp was crap and it was actually a fun place to be back then. they created all the playable 40k and fantasy races except for demons and tau. (don't tell the eldar this but they were created from slugs because the slugs were phsycically strong)

[quote=]A new book about Eldar says that the Warp was not calm at that time and that the Old Ones, Eldar and Necrontir fought together against demons, but then Necrontir attacked the Old Ones

yes it wasn't completely calm think of it as our ocean some storms but nearly all the time it was calm enough and getting demon attacked was about as likely as your house burning down due to a dog hitting an iron onto a flammable carpet. happens very rarely! demons knew this so combined strength and attacked in numbers and were then all killed but there being very occasional conflicts created more but never enough for a god to form.



sorry don't know what has happened with quoting

We do not know how frequent the attacks of demons were at that time. The Old Ones and the Nercontir sealed the legion of demons Slaanesh in a special trap. I also think that perhaps the Old Ones and Necrontir together created the Cadian Pylons back in those times to limit the invasion of demons.

"The Old Ones and the Nercontir sealed the legion of demons Slaanesh in a special trap."

Just what source did that fluff abomination come from?

darkoms wrote:

darkoms wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:
Some of the Old Ones survived until after the Fall of the Eldar. Eldrad kills one in the HH novel "Old Earth" who was part of the Cabal manipulating the Horus Heresy. The Cabal wanted Humanity to wipe itself out during and after the Heresy to burn out Chaos and starve it of fuel. Eldrad wanted to protect humanity so the Eldar could use them as a shield against Chaos.

Nothing says that it was Old Ones. Most likely Slann


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:

darkoms wrote:
Again
The old ones could not create the Chaos Gods, because the Chaos Gods s were before the War in Heaven and the Old Ones fought against demons

Well, War in Heaven is described as lasting a very, very long time, with Old Ones constantly throwing up more and more psychically active species to combat C'tan and their Necrons(Eldar being of a middle patch, while Orks some of the last, created in desperation). It was this unpresedented number of highly psychic races that contributed the critical mass of thoughts and emotions into the Warp for the Chaos Gods to form, after all the Warp Gods in 40k are giant amalgamations of thought/emotions. Kinda like a hurricane's but powered by thoughts instead of heat, and with an intellect of sorts.

It was only towards the end of the War, after eons of fighting had exhausted the Old Ones and they couldn't control their servants anymore, that the Warp critters broke to realspace in an uncontrolled way. And after the Old Ones disappeared without flipping the off-switch on their creations who now ran amok(and with the growing number of younger species forced to grow among them) feeding steam to Chaos. Of course this means that the only way to get rid of Chaos is to kill the Eldar, Orks and all the other mostly unnamed warrior-servants races and the younger races like them, like humans.

Which means that the Tyranids are the heroes we need!

Praise be! The star children deliver us!

Do you even read what I'm writing? The gods of Chaos were BEFORE the War in Heaven, the Old Ones and Necrontir fought together against demons


Automatically Appended Next Post:

deotrims 16th wrote:

deotrims 16th wrote:
lets put it this way they were round before the chaos gods, before the warp was crap and it was actually a fun place to be back then. they created all the playable 40k and fantasy races except for demons and tau. (don't tell the eldar this but they were created from slugs because the slugs were phsycically strong)

[quote=]A new book about Eldar says that the Warp was not calm at that time and that the Old Ones, Eldar and Necrontir fought together against demons, but then Necrontir attacked the Old Ones

yes it wasn't completely calm think of it as our ocean some storms but nearly all the time it was calm enough and getting demon attacked was about as likely as your house burning down due to a dog hitting an iron onto a flammable carpet. happens very rarely! demons knew this so combined strength and attacked in numbers and were then all killed but there being very occasional conflicts created more but never enough for a god to form.



sorry don't know what has happened with quoting

We do not know how frequent the attacks of demons were at that time. The Old Ones and the Nercontir sealed the legion of demons Slaanesh in a special trap. I also think that perhaps the Old Ones and Necrontir together created the Cadian Pylons back in those times to limit the invasion of demons.


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Bharring wrote:
"The Old Ones and the Nercontir sealed the legion of demons Slaanesh in a special trap."

Just what source did that fluff abomination come from?

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Rise_of_the_Ynnari:_Wild_Rider_(Novel)

So you're saying that evidence that the Necrontyr fought Slanesh millions of years before Slanesh was created proves that the Chaos Gods were created before the War in Heaven?

Isn't that just ignoring... everything?

Has the fluff gone mad the last few years?

In the 5th edition necron codex, the necrontyr went to war with the old ones, got their asses wooooopped, found the c'tan, then owned the old ones who then created other races to help them fight. The new races suffering ****** up the warp and the enslavers were born (protodemons). They killed off the old ones. The necrons then killed off the c'tan (taking heavy losses) and then when into hideing from the eldar (do to heavy losses).
So no demons before or right after the war in heaven.

Unless they blew up the lore?

That leads to what is the definition of 'demon'?

There were clearly Chaos Gods during the War in Heaven - Asuryan and Company *are*(/were) Chaos Gods. The Old Ones manifested their will from the Warp - those could be "demons" too, depending on form/definition.

That said, yes, what Darkoms is referring to, if it's now canon, upends basically all the pre-Imperium fluff.

Bharring wrote:


There were clearly Chaos Gods during the War in Heaven - Asuryan and Company *are*(/were) Chaos Gods. The Old Ones manifested their will from the Warp - those could be "demons" too, depending on form/definition.

That said, yes, what Darkoms is referring to, if it's now canon, upends basically all the pre-Imperium fluff.

Where is all of this stated??

Plz give us come quotes or pics.

Various CWE codexes state that the Eldar Gods fought beside the Eldar against the Necrons.


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(None are on hand)

Bharring wrote:
Various CWE codexes state that the Eldar Gods fought beside the Eldar against the Necrons.


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(None are on hand)

Yes, khaine fighting the nightbringer was cannon in the 3rd edition necron codex, but it has not been mentioned since (same goes for the newer eldar dexes). So I dont think it is cannon anymore?

Asuryan and Company *are*(/were) Chaos Gods

Where is this stated?

The Old Ones manifested their will from the Warp - those could be "demons" too, depending on form/definition.

Again, where is this stated?

"Yes, khaine fighting the nightbringer was cannon in the 3rd edition necron codex, but it has not been mentioned since (same goes for the newer eldar dexes). So I dont think it is cannon anymore?"
The Aspect of the Dark Reapers comes from the results of this fight. I don't recall which Codex this was in, but it was 6th, 7th, or 8th.

"Asuryan and Company *are*(/were) Chaos Gods"
Liber Chaotica, among others, is clear on this matter.

"Again, where is this stated?"
That the Old Ones manifested their will from the Warp? Lexicanum's first reference on the Old Ones page is 3rd ed Necron Codex pg 24. I've read it in many other places.


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All that said, the question of "How strong are the old ones?" appears to have had it's answer retconned by the linked novel released in November of this year.

Or that novel is like the book where some Eldar crushed the SoulStones they wore to kill themselves and prevent capture, or the fluff bit about Autarchs being former Exarchs - much of canon conflicts other known canon.

Bharring wrote:
"Yes, khaine fighting the nightbringer was cannon in the 3rd edition necron codex, but it has not been mentioned since (same goes for the newer eldar dexes). So I dont think it is cannon anymore?"
The Aspect of the Dark Reapers comes from the results of this fight. I don't recall which Codex this was in, but it was 6th, 7th, or 8th.

Pretty sure they are the aspect of the destroyer (khaine). Unless they have changed the fluff.

"Asuryan and Company *are*(/were) Chaos Gods"
Liber Chaotica, among others, is clear on this matter.

"Again, where is this stated?"
That the Old Ones manifested their will from the Warp? Lexicanum's first reference on the Old Ones page is 3rd ed Necron Codex pg 24. I've read it in many other places.

Non of this is cannon anymore. The war in heaven was retnonned in 2011 with the 5th edition necron codex.

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All that said, the question of "How strong are the old ones?" appears to have had it's answer retconned by the linked novel released in November of this year.

Or that novel is like the book where some Eldar crushed the SoulStones they wore to kill themselves and prevent capture, or the fluff bit about Autarchs being former Exarchs - much of canon conflicts other known canon.

All arthours can make mistakes. Having the chaos gods show up in the war in heaven dosent seem like a small mistake.

"Pretty sure they are the aspect of the destroyer (khaine). Unless they have changed the fluff. "
Yes. But the reaper persona is a result of the fight with a C'Tan. Khaine absorbed a part of the C'tan in that fight (fairly sure Nightbringer). Hence the scythe and such.

"Non of this is cannon anymore. The war in heaven was retnonned in 2011 with the 5th edition necron codex. "
You might want to read a few recent CWE codexes. Again, I don't have one in front of me, but the Eldar Gods being residents of the Immaterium is kinda a crux of who/what they are, even in modern fluff. And the Old Ones being masters of the Immaterium is likewise a critical component. Those didn't go away, although I don't have

Much has been retconned, but this stuff is in the 6e/7e/8e Eldar codexes.

"All arthours can make mistakes. Having the chaos gods show up in the war in heaven dosent seem like a small mistake."
This isn't the first time that Slanesh has shown up before it's birth during the Fall of the Eldar Empire. Some readers believe the four Gods don't follow time linearly - meaning they can show up before their birth.

Eldar crushing their SoulStones to kill themselves isn't a minor mistake, either. That said, I don't think the Slanesh story was a mistake so much as the author either not caring or intentionally retconning - the author is more than familiar enough with Eldar to know.

Also, we're talking about two very different things here. There are Chaos Gods as a category that includs Gork, Mork (didn't exist yet, though), the Eldar pantheon, the Big Four and more. Then there are the Big Four Chaos Gods. The idea that there were incredibly powerful entities in the Warp during the War in Heaven shouldn't be so surprising. The Old Ones died *before* the end of that war, after all. But the Big Four - there isn't much fluff on when the older 3 came about, and some suggestions that they "always were".

Some BL authors are just trying to write what they think is a good story. Consistency doesn't matter to some.

Bharring wrote:

Yes. But the reaper persona is a result of the fight with a C'Tan. Khaine absorbed a part of the C'tan in that fight (fairly sure Nightbringer). Hence the scythe and such.

It was indeed the nightbringer. There is no mention of the reaper part in the 7th edition CWE dex. Will have a look in the 6th and 8th edition this weekend.

You might want to read a few recent CWE codexes. Again, I don't have one in front of me, but the Eldar Gods being residents of the Immaterium is kinda a crux of who/what they are, even in modern fluff. And the Old Ones being masters of the Immaterium is likewise a critical component. Those didn't go away, although I don't have

Much has been retconned, but this stuff is in the 6e/7e/8e Eldar codexes.

There is no mention of the war in heaven in the 7th edition CWE dex.

Also, I think you are misunderstanding me. Im not claiming that the eldar gods never existed nor that the old ones were not masters of the Immaterium.

I was stating that:

1. We dont know excatly what the eldar gods are. Because it has never been stated in the fluff. Recent fluff points in the direction of warp enteties. But we still dont know for sure.

2. The old ones did not manifest beings from the warp.

I looked through all the necron codexes. And there simply is no mention of the old ones manifesting beings from the warp.

This isn't the first time that Slanesh has shown up before it's birth during the Fall of the Eldar Empire. Some readers believe the four Gods don't follow time linearly - meaning they can show up before their birth.

Eldar crushing their SoulStones to kill themselves isn't a minor mistake, either. That said, I don't think the Slanesh story was a mistake so much as the author either not caring or intentionally retconning - the author is more than familiar enough with Eldar to know.

Also, we're talking about two very different things here. There are Chaos Gods as a category that includs Gork, Mork (didn't exist yet, though), the Eldar pantheon, the Big Four and more. Then there are the Big Four Chaos Gods. The idea that there were incredibly powerful entities in the Warp during the War in Heaven shouldn't be so surprising. The Old Ones died *before* the end of that war, after all. But the Big Four - there isn't much fluff on when the older 3 came about, and some suggestions that they "always were".

Like I have already stated, we dont know for sure what the eldar gods are.

But we DO know for sure that the chaos gods we know today have not been around forever.

This is from the 8th edition deamons codex:


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"We dont know excatly what the eldar gods are. Because it has never been stated in the fluff. Recent fluff points in the direction of warp enteties. But we still dont know for sure."
True, we don't know 100%. There are some *very strong hints* in the CWE books (and elsewhere). But not 100% canon.

"The old ones did not manifest beings from the warp."
We don't know exactly *what* they manifested. We likewise don't know that they *didn't*. I think I wasn't clear in my far-upthread "headcanon" theory that it was not canon. It was just a theory I liked.

I would like to point out that the "definition of being" is complicated. Would you base it on Cogni Ergo Sum (I think therefore I am)? Does it need self-awareness? Cognission? Physical pressence? Autonomy? It's a tricky question. My "headcanon" theory plays with that argument, suggesting it was a slope, and not just a line.

We don't know *what* the Old Ones manifested from the Warp, exactly. Hopefully, we'll never know.

"But we DO know for sure that the chaos gods we know today have not been around forever. "
I've seen people suggest that the Big Four are eternal. I'm not a fan of that argument.

There's also the nonlinear time thing: if Khorne exists, then there's no reason he can't act before his birth, as Time is not consistent for Warp beings. I hate that too, but we have multiple reports of Slanesh acting before it's 'birth' around M30. That said, I like the Realm of Chaos post - it suggests that the "powers" existed before the birth of the God - with the birth being when they attain consionsness. So Slaneshi demons would exist pre-M30, in that theory.

I have looked throguh the eldar dexes, and I simply can not find any link between the nightbringer and the dark reapers. The text is pretty much the same in all of them.

This is from the 4th edition.

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So they look like reapers because the founder dressed like a reaper ( Maugan Ra). Why he dressed like that is not explained.

We don't know exactly *what* they manifested. We likewise don't know that they *didn't*. I think I wasn't clear in my far-upthread "headcanon" theory that it was not canon. It was just a theory I liked.

We don't know *what* the Old Ones manifested from the Warp, exactly. Hopefully, we'll never know.

I can't find anything about the old ones "manifesting their will from the warp". Their mastery of the webways are menitoned in the necron codexes. Thats it.