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Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User




As I am currently in the process of starting again with 40k, this is something that I have been wondering about. I still know the whole points thing, but have been wondering, do many people use the power levels? Or do people generally prefer to use points? And why?
   
Made in us
Yellin' Yoof




United States

I can't stand the vagueness of power level. It seems that war gear and options are fading out, so it may eventually not matter, but I still prefer the granularity of points.

Orkz is never beaten in battle. If we win, we win. If we did, we did fighting so it don't count. If we legz it, we just come back for annuver go, see? 
   
Made in us
Witch Hunter Undercover in a Cult







I've done a few tests and discovered that lists built on points and lists built on power level tend to come within 5% of each other when not deliberately built to break the system (converting 1PL = 20pts), and GW's costing margin for error is way more than 5%. It doesn't seem to matter for casual usage.

(Granted, this was done before either Chapter Approved, so if I did the same thing today I may find a different result.)

Victoria est autem vita.

Stories at https://knightofthegrey.wordpress.com/
Game-related musings at https://thescenicdetour.wordpress.com/
Both updated irregularly 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






Points. If everyone starts using Power Levels instead, what's the point of having wargear options like Sponsons on Baneblades? Just make them mandatory.
   
Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant




Tampa, FL

I use both. Generally points, but sometimes I prefer the simplicity of power level especially for non-Matched Play scenarios. However, using PL requires a specific mindset which not everyone has.

- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Power level is pretty balanced if you use the Index's from when 8th first came out.

Now there have been so many points changes that PL is no longer very accurate of a representation of the units.



If you stick to lower amounts (i.e. 50pl) then it still works fine for casual play.

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Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





I like list construction in itself so much that I want as much nuance and complexity to it as possible. Using power level glossed over that, and removes something I really enjoy about the game.

As such I'd always want to use points even in the most casual games. I'm fast enough in Battlescribe that it's not faster to use PL in any meaningful way.
   
Made in us
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant





 Eihnlazer wrote:
Power level is pretty balanced if you use the Index's from when 8th first came out.

Now there have been so many points changes that PL is no longer very accurate of a representation of the units.



If you stick to lower amounts (i.e. 50pl) then it still works fine for casual play.
Only for certain armies. I found that necrons are extremely strong in lower point games due to certain armies being unable to reach critical mass at lower point games.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/12 01:39:49


 
   
Made in us
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!





Power Level is okay just to test something out. Overall, though- every FLGS has 'that guy' that wants to play to Power Level and you'll quickly find out that he's padded his army in such a way that there's no way you're both on equal footing. At all.

Just go by points, it's not that hard. Just be chill enough like my friends are- anything like 3 points over is forgivable.

Putting your political and ideological opinions in your signature isn't a clever way to get past the ban.

If you can't put that aside and discuss games with other people, you probably have an obsession and need professional help. 
   
Made in pl
Screaming Shining Spear





 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Power Level is okay just to test something out. Overall, though- every FLGS has 'that guy' that wants to play to Power Level and you'll quickly find out that he's padded his army in such a way that there's no way you're both on equal footing. At all.

Just go by points, it's not that hard. Just be chill enough like my friends are- anything like 3 points over is forgivable.


Oh man, you must have missed the whole "Christmas thread of four points over" to say this kind of heresy
   
Made in us
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!





nou wrote:
 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Power Level is okay just to test something out. Overall, though- every FLGS has 'that guy' that wants to play to Power Level and you'll quickly find out that he's padded his army in such a way that there's no way you're both on equal footing. At all.

Just go by points, it's not that hard. Just be chill enough like my friends are- anything like 3 points over is forgivable.


Oh man, you must have missed the whole "Christmas thread of four points over" to say this kind of heresy


I'm not competitive enough to be bothered by things like that, man. I'm just a fun chill player.

We literally allow 'Solo Elite' units that are made-up points.

Putting your political and ideological opinions in your signature isn't a clever way to get past the ban.

If you can't put that aside and discuss games with other people, you probably have an obsession and need professional help. 
   
Made in fi
Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Oh no! Power levels and being couple of points over mentioned! This will be ugly...

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in us
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!





 Crimson wrote:
Oh no! Power levels and being couple of points over mentioned! This will be ugly...


You know, man- the way I see it- unless I'm in a tournament, if I'm just playing with buddies- it's no biggie.

Anyone who freaks out over a couple of points is making me aware of who not to play around with.

Putting your political and ideological opinions in your signature isn't a clever way to get past the ban.

If you can't put that aside and discuss games with other people, you probably have an obsession and need professional help. 
   
Made in fi
Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
Oh no! Power levels and being couple of points over mentioned! This will be ugly...

You know, man- the way I see it- unless I'm in a tournament, if I'm just playing with buddies- it's no biggie.

Anyone who freaks out over a couple of points is making me aware of who not to play around with.

I am not disagreeing with you, I just know how these discussions go.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






Without getting too much into the arguments that stirred up that last massive thread... the counter argument is that 99% of the time you can easily just remove a single model from a unit, or a single piece of wargear, or not take an upgrade, to make the points limit. So why not do it? Maybe your sergeant' power sword is on the frtiz, so it's just a regular chainsword for the game because it broke. That's fine, you just say that and boom, you're at or under the limit. Taking extra pieces of war gear and asking your opponent if he's OK with it is effectively the same thing as saying, "Let me do this extra thing beyond the agreed limit or I'll think your a WAAC jerk".

The other side of the argument is that I modeled my guys a specific way, and I want to play them WYSIWYG. I'm only 5 points over, it shouldn't matter. It probably won't impact the game anyway. Maybe I marked my squads with specific squad insignia, and I really want to keep them together. I don't have replacement squad members that can fill in and keep the same theme going.

Most of us had opinions ranging from one extreme to the other, but in my opinion, unless your guys are perfectly modeled on a squad by squad basis with squad markings, or are beautifully painted and a great looking army, you should just do a counts-as to be under the limit. It's a perk of having a great looking army that I'll be OK with you playing fast and loose with the points limit a little to maintain a theme. If your army is entirely gray plastic.... yea you're doing a counts-as to be under the limit or I'm not playing you.
   
Made in pl
Screaming Shining Spear





 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
nou wrote:
 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Power Level is okay just to test something out. Overall, though- every FLGS has 'that guy' that wants to play to Power Level and you'll quickly find out that he's padded his army in such a way that there's no way you're both on equal footing. At all.

Just go by points, it's not that hard. Just be chill enough like my friends are- anything like 3 points over is forgivable.


Oh man, you must have missed the whole "Christmas thread of four points over" to say this kind of heresy


I'm not competitive enough to be bothered by things like that, man. I'm just a fun chill player.

We literally allow 'Solo Elite' units that are made-up points.


I understand you perfectly and I'm 100% on your side, but as Crimson said - this thread is likely doomed to repeat the 20+ pages of ugliness about 4 points over being a crime against humanity argued by self proclaimed defender of narrative gaming

And now back to thread - PL would be a perfectly good reference system (with some refinement) if the only mode of play was narrative and points never existed throughout 30 years of history of Warhammer. As it is not the case and Matched is the law in a whole lot of places, online PL vs points debates are pretty pointless - they are only significant in a local, direct gaming context of what your regular opponents prefer.
   
Made in us
Ancient Space Wolves Venerable Dreadnought




I prefer Points by a wide margin, but I *do* think that Power Level has certain very valuable uses:

When playing Narrative games that are actually Narrative. If you and a buddy actually want to play a game that's deliberately imbalanced and you're not concerned about fighting a losing battle or going for non-standard objectives ("I'm outnumbered two to one but just have to survive", for example,) Power Level is a lot of fun.

Basic reference for which abilities can be used on what units, killpoint variants, etc. When determining things like which units can be put in a Teleportarium, whether a unit qualifies as a Big Game target, Summoning, etc, Power Level can function as a good, quick reference system without taking a lot of time in-game to calculate exact points or without relying on unreliable systems like model count or wound count.

And, lastly, as a variant style of listbuilding for competitive games... Sort of. I wouldn't want to see tournaments all switch over to Power Level, but as someone who enjoys list optimization, it's interesting to see units and weapon choices that are generally considered to be "Sub-optimal" or just flat out "Bad" become viable choices. Some armies come out much further ahead in this system (Deathwatch come to mind as an army that can get MASSIVE return on investment if they aren't paying for wargear,) but it's occasionally fun.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Points for pickup games and anything remotely serious

Power level for non-serious stuff like Apocalypse, Narrative games, etc.
   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine





Points or Power Level thread #975,312 or NO Points of Power Level thread #975,312?
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran



NE Ohio, USA

Either. I just want some way to discuss how much army to field. Bring x pts worth/bring x power lv. Either one works.

   
Made in ca
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot





I like the ease of use that Power Levels bring.
They also generally apply in non Matched Play games, which have all kinds of amazing rules.

Girl Gamers are the best! 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






Points. There is no plausible situation, outside of maybe a newbie's first learning games with very stripped down lists, where power level is a better point system than the normal point system. It's just a less-accurate evaluation of a unit's strength, making it worse at doing the job of a point system. In any situation where power level "works" the normal point system will work, but the reverse is not at all true. So why use a worse system? The only answer is "casual" players using it as a way to demonstrate that competitive players aren't welcome.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in de
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade




Battlescribe makes Power level just not that necessary imo.
And Powerlevels aren't updated in the way points are. Which means on the other hand for some Forgeworld models playing power level could be a way to make them useful or even playable within smaller games than apocalypse.

My gaming group sticks to points but I wouldn't mind power level as long as it's true wysiwyg. Points system can also be abused to play 40K in a way I don't like as seen in most tournament lists, but with power level it's a bit more obvious.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Because of how bad GK upgrades are, but power levels include the cost of taking them, points are the better option for me.

The fact power level also werent updated in the CA, doesn't help them either.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




This is top tier flame bait, second only to 'Female space marines when?!'

2500pts
2500
3000


 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 AnomanderRake wrote:
I've done a few tests and discovered that lists built on points and lists built on power level tend to come within 5% of each other when not deliberately built to break the system (converting 1PL = 20pts), and GW's costing margin for error is way more than 5%. It doesn't seem to matter for casual usage.

(Granted, this was done before either Chapter Approved, so if I did the same thing today I may find a different result.)

have you done the GK too?
   
Made in it
Ichor-Dripping Talos Monstrosity




Italy

Points. 40k is already un-balanced using points, with PL it's even more un-balanced.

Orks 9000
Space Wolves 6500
Drukhari 4500 
   
Made in gb
Instigating Incubi




The dark behind the eyes.

Not a fan of Power Level. Given the option, I'll always choose points.

Akiasura wrote:
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 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
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 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in gb
Smokin' Skorcha Driver




London UK

When you have any measurement sytem that both players agree to there is an implied balance. Power levels vary too much for that balance to be maintained. If you want a chill game with firneds then its fine but for Power level to work you need to play true WYSIWYG which doesn't always apply in casual games so you'll end up with players just tricking out their units with every upgrade available because it costs nothing to do it.

40k isn't balanced even with points but it will get you closer to balance than PL will.

Points also let you chop and change unit size without penalty. If you run a squad of 10 but actually find that 8 is what you need to squeeze a couple of buff characters into that rhino you can't do it with PL.

If you experiement with Battlescribe and build a few lists you can see the variance in power level compared to points.

Points is the prefferred option almost everywhere so unless you're playing with a select few buddies that all play power level I would start as you mean to go on and just get used to points.
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut




Power levels are necessary for the game, since they are not updated in CA.

You use those for those games where you just want to be able to play with your models just the way you built them, and with only your index or codex in hand without checking 40 FAQs or CA.

Sure it can be gamed, but if you do that then you weren't going to use PL the right way in any case.
   
 
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