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I am not sure how this plays

Restrain says that the movement characteristic is halved.

Advance say that the roll is added to the move characteris.

Lets say you have a unit that has a Movement of 10.

How does it work?: Restrain is cast successfully.

1) Movement is now 5 and an Advance roll of 4 means a net move of 9"

2 Movement is 10+ 4 for an Advance roll = a net move of 7"

Thanks

From page 124 of Codex Craftworlds:

Choose an enemy unit within 18" of the psyker – your opponent must halve the Move characteristic of all models in that unit until your next Psychic phase.

The Move characteristic is the number in the model's profile. Restrain would have no effect on the dice roll for advancing as it's not a part of the Move characteristic.

I do know that if a unit can move again lets say with Quicken or a Tyranid power/Soulburst/etc...the FAQ mentions that no unit can Advance a second time, HOWEVER the move characteristic could have been changed with the Advance roll.

So a unit has a Move of 5.
It Advances and the roll is a 4.

During the psychic phase the unit is given another move.

That unit now moves 9 as its move characteristic is now 9 as per the FAQ


SO does the Restrain power only affect the unit for that moment in time....or since it is a power that is continuous for a Round....does it work as an overall/inclusive 50%???


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghaz wrote:

... no effect on the dice roll for advancing as it's not a part of the Move characteristic.

So the rules for Advance says to add the roll to the movement characteristic I believe. So is that NOW the stat or is this just a weird sort of modifier....and does that matter?

You add the result to the Move characteristic, however you don't change the Move characteristic. It remains what is printed in the profile on the datasheet (i.e., Move characteristic + Advance roll = total distance the model(s) may move and not a new Move characteristic).

see I am not convinced...this is the reason I have asked.

Consider this FAQ in the Main Rule Book. EMPHASIS is mine on the FAQ.:

Q: The rules for Advancing state that you roll a dice and [1]add the result to the Move characteristic of the models in the unit ‘for that Movement phase’. If, for whatever reason, I am able to Advance and then move normally with a unit in the same Movement phase, does the number I added to the unit’s Move characteristic when it Advanced still apply when I make the normal move with the unit? For example, I have a unit whose Move characteristic is 6". It Advances, and I roll a 6, adding that to its Move characteristic to make 12". If it moves again in the same phase, [2]its Move characteristic is still 12", so can it move up to 12" when making this move?

A: Yes. Note that a unit cannot Advance more than once in the same Movement phase, so [3]the Move characteristic of a unit can only be modified once in this manner.

The First Emphasis is clearly Adding to the Move Characteristic. It is unclear if the Move Characteristic is changed or just has an addition.

The Second Emphasis clear states that the move characteristic is now changed.

The Third Emphasis clearly points out the Move characteristic is modified.

Since it is modified how does modifiers work this edition?



Here is FAQ from the Tyranids:

Q: Can a unit ever Advance twice in a single phase? A: No.
Q: If a unit has Advanced in a phase, and is given the opportunity to move again in the same phase, what is their Move characteristic?

[4]A: Their Move characteristic for the second move would still be the value as modified from the Advance.

For example, if a unit with a Move characteristic of 5" Advances in a Movement phase, and the result of the dice rolled for the Advance is 4, its Move characteristic would be modified for that phase to 9". As such, if it was given the opportunity to move again in that phase, its Move characteristic would still be 9".

The Fourth Emphasis shows the Move Characteristic is a 'VALUE' so Move characteristics do change on the PROFILE.

Now both of these FAQ talk about movement during the SAME Phase....so does that have bearing?

"Restrain: Choose and enemy unit withing 18" of the psyker - your opponent must halve the Move Characteristic of all models in that unit until your next Pyschic phase."[b]

So back to the original post....what are your thoughts.???

If a unit with 10 movement advances and rolls a 4 its movement characteristic is 14. Restrain halves that characteristic, therefore its 7.

Thank you.

See I think it is this simple...it just can be interpreted to varying degrees depending on how one decides to look at the words.

The way I read it is that Movement and Advance are the same phase. Advance modifies the Value on the Profile for THAT phase.

Restrain modifies the Profile by 50% until the casters NEXT psychic phase....so that means every other phase between then has the VALUE halved, modified or not.

Again, 'adding the result to the Move characteristic' is not the same as 'add the result to the Move characteristic. This is your new Move characteristic'. The Move characteristic remains what is printed in the datasheet you've just added the dice roll to it so the model moves an additional D6".

But more than once in the FAQ on the other questions it states that the MOVE characteristic IS now a different VALUE.

How do you resolve that? You cannot just brush that aside with the explanation you have given thus far Ghaz.

This is why I asked.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"its Move characteristic is still 12",

" its Move characteristic would still be 9".

Both of those are quotes from the FAQ....
Both of those are referencing the changed MOVE CHARACTERISTIC....

So your Profile VALUE does change....it is not just added.

I will counter argue that both of those are points IN a secondary move.

So one could conceivably argue that the Advance + Move characteristic does not change til after the action

That is a little wonky and seems word bendy to me.

The FAQ makes it clear that by 'add', they mean to increase the Movement value by the Advance value; not just to find what M+A is and use that as a separate number.

In nerdy terms, programmers typically see "Take A, add it to B, ... then do C" as:

value = B + A;
C(value);

The FAQ suggests that the intended read of 'Take A, add it to B, ... then do C" as:

B+=A;
C(B);

In other words, the FAQ makes it clear that adding A to B increases B, instead of providing a new value.

It looks to me like there is plenty of support for this. A unit's M stat is both the value on the datasheet AND that value increase by an Advance roll.
If an Advance roll has been made, or is made later, the total value is halved by Restrain.

But here is a tricky fold in this mess:
If a model with M6" has Restrain cast on it to be M3", but then in their turn rolls a 4" Advance, what value gets Halved?
The unit is already M3" at that point, so do you add 4 and half 7? or only add 2"
Restrain says the unit has its M halve until your next Psychic Phase, but you cannot half more than once. So WHEN do you half it? is the important question

I would argue that the "halving" happens at the moment the value comes into question, which is AFTER the Advance roll when the unit is about to be physically moved
So a M6" unit with +4" Advance roll would have M10", but then once it moves, that becomes M5"

-

Ghaz has it right. The power only halves the characteristic on the datasheet, not any modifiers that are applied to it later.

We have a bit from the Rules (1.) and a piece of FAQ (2.):

1. You may also encounter abilities and rules that modify a characteristic. All modifiers are cumulative, though you should apply any multiplication or division to the characteristic (rounding fractions up) before applying any addition or subtraction.
2. If, for whatever reason, the unit can move again in the same phase, its Move characteristic is still considered Advancing and uses the modified Move characteristics.

With this in mind, I don't see how you can argue for "(10+4)/2=7"
The rules tell us to divide first and then apply an addition: (10/2)+4=9

 Hanskrampf wrote:
We have a bit from the Rules (1.) and a piece of FAQ (2.):

1. You may also encounter abilities and rules that modify a characteristic. All modifiers are cumulative, though you should apply any multiplication or division to the characteristic (rounding fractions up) before applying any addition or subtraction.
2. If, for whatever reason, the unit can move again in the same phase, its Move characteristic is still considered Advancing and uses the modified Move characteristics.

With this in mind, I don't see how you can argue for "(10+4)/2=7"
The rules tell us to divide first and then apply an addition: (10/2)+4=9

I think this just convinced me to completely reverse my original stance.

-

So Advancing really does modify Movement, but the result is the same as it would be if Advancing didn't modify Movement.

Funny.

Bharring wrote:
So Advancing really does modify Movement, but the result is the same as it would be if Advancing didn't modify Movement.

Funny.

Yes, because Restrain is also a Movement characteristic modifier.

So much evidence in this thread showing restraint halves the total of
Movement and advance, and a few suspiciously potential eldar haters stating otherwise with no rules to back them up.. hmm..

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
So much evidence in this thread showing restraint halves the total of
Movement and advance, and a few suspiciously potential eldar haters stating otherwise with no rules to back them up.. hmm..

What evidence? All I've seen is people stretching the meaning of the word Characteristic.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Ghaz has it right. The power only halves the characteristic on the datasheet, not any modifiers that are applied to it later.

Yes, but for the reasons Hanskrampf stated, not because the Characteristic isn't actually changed by the Advance roll (b/c it is)

Advancing and Restrain are both modifiers on the M stat. So you follow the multiple/divide first, them add/substract rule

-

"So much evidence in this thread showing restraint halves the total of "
Almost all the evidence suggests that halving applies to the Movement stat, and that the Movement stat is M + A.

The reason you only halve the original statline value is because of the very specific FAQ posted above; when you halve/double a stat with +/- modifiers, you halve/double the base stat before applying the +/- modifiers.

So the core argument that the Movement stat is base movement + advance amount is true - which is what all the evidence supports. But the FAQ means you get the same result as you would if it only halved the base movement.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
So much evidence in this thread showing restraint halves the total of
Movement and advance, and a few suspiciously potential eldar haters stating otherwise with no rules to back them up.. hmm..

You have a base Movement characteristic of 10.
Then you have two modifiers:
+4 from Advance and /2 from Restrain
You apply them in the order the rules tell you to.
You then have a new, modified Movement characteristic.

You don't get to make up a case of a temporary Movement characteristic of 10+4.
There is literally nothing in the rules or FAQ supporting this approach.

I don't like it but I cannot argue with it.

Multiplication first then additions.

If it was a powerfist that is the way I would want it.

It is just you take some muck moving 4" and now you make him move 2"....that is significant.
Then he rolls a 6 for Advance and the power really seems hollow as the unit moves 8" instead of 10" Not much of a restraint. Ah well.

Are there any other cases of Division in the game/wargear?

So question Number 2.

Lets say a unit with 4" has Restrain on it.
It rolls a 6 for Advance.
It moves 8 inches in that phase.
Lets say some power lets it move again in the movement phase.
That move is now an additional 8"
In the Psychic Phase Quicken is cast on it.
I think the Movement Characteristic is returned back to 4 and is now doubled back to 8.???
If a Soulburst type of Action happens (don't even know what those rules are now) Can that unit move again in the Shooting/Fight phase?

Is there a limit on the number of movements a unit could take if enough Abilities/Strategems/Pychics are available and legal to use???

 Hanskrampf wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
So much evidence in this thread showing restraint halves the total of
Movement and advance, and a few suspiciously potential eldar haters stating otherwise with no rules to back them up.. hmm..

You have a base Movement characteristic of 10.
Then you have two modifiers:
+4 from Advance and /2 from Restrain
You apply them in the order the rules tell you to.
You then have a new, modified Movement characteristic.

You don't get to make up a case of a temporary Movement characteristic of 10+4.
There is literally nothing in the rules or FAQ supporting this approach.

Yeah, this seems like a very solid answer. We can hate eldar AND read the rules, and there's even some time left to hate on Tau. Stupid fish.

nekooni wrote:

 Hanskrampf wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
So much evidence in this thread showing restraint halves the total of
Movement and advance, and a few suspiciously potential eldar haters stating otherwise with no rules to back them up.. hmm..

You have a base Movement characteristic of 10.
Then you have two modifiers:
+4 from Advance and /2 from Restrain
You apply them in the order the rules tell you to.
You then have a new, modified Movement characteristic.

You don't get to make up a case of a temporary Movement characteristic of 10+4.
There is literally nothing in the rules or FAQ supporting this approach.

Yeah, this seems like a very solid answer. We can hate eldar AND read the rules, and there's even some time left to hate on Tau. Stupid fish.

You saying it’s solid doesn’t make it solid, non eldar scum. I have been playing it halve the characteristic of the entire combination and nothing else. I won’t let my friends have it otherwise. Unless they player an eldar faction of sorts.

How you play it has nothing to do with what the rules say.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
You saying it’s solid doesn’t make it solid, non eldar scum. I have been playing it halve the characteristic of the entire combination and nothing else. I won’t let my friends have it otherwise. Unless they player an eldar faction of sorts.

This reminds me of another Eldar player I played against back in...4th edition? He was spinning his transports around so their access points were closer to me, disembarking, and then spinning his transport back around so he could fire the weapons. When I told him he couldn't do that by the rules, he snapped at me saying it's the way he's always done it and no one had ever complained. I told him it doesn't matter how he's always played it or that no one else realised it was wrong, it's still wrong.

The rules clearly tell you to divide first and then add when applying modifiers. Doesn't matter how you've always played it or how forceful you've been with your friends, you're still supposed to divide and then add.

State rules page, references wher eit specifies this exact wording. Any grey area allows for this to happen like it or not. “But but it’s intended this way” we’ll that sucks, if raw allows it raw beats rai EVERYTIME.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
State rules page, references wher eit specifies this exact wording. Any grey area allows for this to happen like it or not. “But but it’s intended this way” we’ll that sucks, if raw allows it raw beats rai EVERYTIME.

There is literally no grey area. There are literally two explanations RaW as to why you halve first then add.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
State rules page, references wher eit specifies this exact wording. Any grey area allows for this to happen like it or not. “But but it’s intended this way” we’ll that sucks, if raw allows it raw beats rai EVERYTIME.

Battle Primer, p13; "Modifying Characteristics" sidebar:

You may also encounter
abilities and rules that
modify a characteristic. All
modifiers are cumulative,
though you should
apply any multiplication
or division to the
characteristic (rounding
fractions up) before
applying any addition
or subtraction.

That's about as unambiguous as you can possibly get.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
State rules page, references wher eit specifies this exact wording. Any grey area allows for this to happen like it or not. “But but it’s intended this way” we’ll that sucks, if raw allows it raw beats rai EVERYTIME.

This line from someone how has not quoted any rule at all in this discussion and is neither playing RAW nor RAI, but something made up. Classic.