Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey folks!

I've submitted the following questions to GW in regards to the new Genestealer Cult codex. Here's the questions I submitted:

#1 - Can you set up Ambush markers on top of each other or otherwise overlapping each other?

#2 - For Mental Onslaught, if the target has an ability to ignore losing wounds, such as Disgustingly Resilient, and the target passes this roll to prevent losing a wound, do you continue rolling for Mental Onslaught to see if the target loses additional wounds?

#3 - For Astra Militarum detachments that are brought in with Genestealer Cults, where the units replace their <Regiment> with Brood Brothers, but other units simply gain Brood Brothers, does this allow Brood Brothers Company Commanders to issue orders to Brood Brothers Bullgryns, even though they normally wouldn't be able to, as the Bullgryns don't normally have the <Regiment> keyword?


I imagine for question #1 that, since these are not models, you can indeed overlap ambush markers. Will it ever matter? Probably not.

For #2, I imagine that the model still lost the wound in the first place, which is why the Disgustingly Resilient rule even came up to stop the loss of the wound, but that the Mental Onslaught would continue. Still, not 100% sure on this one.

Lastly, for #3, the rules on gaining Brood Brothers for <Regiment> units follows the exact same phrasing that would normally apply to replacing <Cult> with "Cult of the Four Armed Emperor" or whatever, so it really is replacing the <Regiment> in all ways, including for issuing orders. Since the Bullgryns gain Brood Brothers, they now can be ordered to do stuff like Fix Bayonets or Move Move Move.

I think GW don't actually read the questions sent in. If they did things that were pointed out day 0 would have been fixed by now.

For 1 I think you can because they aren't models, but I expect GW to rule you cannot.

2 I would say that Mental Onslaught will continue to go as long as it meets the criteria, that being that the model is still alive or you fail to get a score higher than the opponents. It doesn't matter to the power if the wound gets ignored by another rule or not, it only cares "you fail to inflict 1 mortal wound by having a score higher than your opponent’s."

3, yes it means Bullgryns now can take orders. GW writing at it's finest.

YMDC is not the place for off topic debates, I have just deleted a load of posts that had little to do with the questions posed. If you can not argue the point (and I stress the point, not another user) then do not post. Further off topic and tit for tat posts will see warnings and/or suspensions handed out as merited.

Thanks,
ingtaer.

 Yarium wrote:
#1 - Can you set up Ambush markers on top of each other or otherwise overlapping each other?

I'd say they're markers, so if you really want to, you could overlap them. HIWPI.

#2 - For Mental Onslaught, if the target has an ability to ignore losing wounds, such as Disgustingly Resilient, and the target passes this roll to prevent losing a wound, do you continue rolling for Mental Onslaught to see if the target loses additional wounds?

You still inflicted the wound, the target simply ignored it. Keep rolling.

#3 - For Astra Militarum detachments that are brought in with Genestealer Cults, where the units replace their <Regiment> with Brood Brothers, but other units simply gain Brood Brothers, does this allow Brood Brothers Company Commanders to issue orders to Brood Brothers Bullgryns, even though they normally wouldn't be able to, as the Bullgryns don't normally have the <Regiment> keyword?

That one's a tough one. I'm not sure what they intended at all. The RAW seems clear, so I'd cautiously say "go with the RAW" until we've got the GSC Codex FAQ - they really need to address this, even if it's just to confirm the RAW.

One question we had yesterday was does a unit set up using the blip markers count as being set up as reinforcements/not on the table for the purposes of deploying 50% of your army? We assumed the blips counted as being deployed but at the time couldn't quite come up with a reason why.

Slipspace wrote:
One question we had yesterday was does a unit set up using the blip markers count as being set up as reinforcements/not on the table for the purposes of deploying 50% of your army? We assumed the blips counted as being deployed but at the time couldn't quite come up with a reason why.

Can't give you a quote since I don't have the Codex - but yeah, of course they're not reinforcements. The 50% applies to stuff set up underground / in deep strike.
Just saw the whole rule in the other thread - yeah, they're reinforcements, so the markers shouldn't do anything for your 50% limit - you still need half your points properly deployed on the table.

Slipspace wrote:
One question we had yesterday was does a unit set up using the blip markers count as being set up as reinforcements/not on the table for the purposes of deploying 50% of your army? We assumed the blips counted as being deployed but at the time couldn't quite come up with a reason why.

They aren't deployed on the battlefield, they are deployed in ambush, so they don't count towards the 50% you must deploy on the battlefield (assuming you're using the latest beta rules).

Except GW has said on their own site that blip counters do count, so you can set up your whole army in Ambush, even in matched play. That's their intent as per their website:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/02/02/pre-order-today-new-genestealer-cults/

A few of you have got in touch this week to ask how the Ambush marker deployment mechanic works in matched play games.

We just wanted to clear up that the intent is certainly that you can deploy your entire Genestealer Cults army using Ambush markers if you like – in any type of game. Any and all units that have the Cult Ambush special rule can take advantage of this, though you still can’t start with more than half your army underground. Not even the Genestealer Cults are that sneaky!

Deploying using Ambush marker is a very thematic, though fairly unusual, mechanic, and it does throw up the odd question on specific interactions with some other deployment rules. Don’t worry – these will be covered in a designer’s commentary in a few weeks. For now – enjoy the new codex!

How is this supposed to work ?? The GSC army is not on the table, only the blips, yet they cant start with more than half your army underground ?

Truth be told? NO IDEA. It doesn't make any sense. Still, that is clearly, from the horse's mouth, their intention.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If the ability didn't call it "in ambush", but rather just said that you just place the blip instead of the unit and "reveal the unit's position by following these steps", then it'd work - then they'd be "50% on the table, but you just haven't revealed their location" kind of thing. I am positive that this is their intent, but they wrote it in a way that is entirely like other deep strike abilities, which would normally preclude such units from counting for 50% "on the battlefield".

Ambush and Underground are 2 different kinds of deployment for GSC. Ambush lets you nominate a unit and place a marker, Underground is standard deep strike rules. So you can basically "null deploy" your whole army with Ambush markers and put a few units in the Underground for deep strike shenanigans. There's also a Stratagem that lets you take up to 3 non-vehicle units that are in Ambush and move them to the Underground. This can actually get around the whole 50% deployment since the game is already started, if that's a thing you want to do.

Only Infantry and Bikes can Ambush, but apparently so can transports as long as they have a unit in them? (that's a question I would put to GW)

 p5freak wrote:
How is this supposed to work ?? The GSC army is not on the table, only the blips, yet they cant start with more than half your army underground ?

There's starting "in Cult Ambush" which means "as a blip". Then there's "starting underground", which means deep strike. The former is a unique thing for GSC and is being treated as "on the battlefield" for the 50% rule, the later is your generic deep strike reserve which counts as "in reserves" for the 50% rule.

I have to say this is probably the worst fething place to put such a clarification an errata, though.

What a website says doesn't matter and what the rules say do. If they want to allow ambush to put your entire army not on the battlefield they need to change the beta rule or change the ambush rule.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
What a website says doesn't matter and what the rules say do. If they want to allow ambush to put your entire army not on the battlefield they need to change the beta rule or change the ambush rule.

Which is exactly why they already said they're going to do so. So all is fine, isn't it?

Indeed. While I have no doubt they won't actually fix it "properly", relying on FAQs instead of errata, it will be fixed and there will be much rejoicing.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
What a website says doesn't matter and what the rules say do. If they want to allow ambush to put your entire army not on the battlefield they need to change the beta rule or change the ambush rule.

Except of course for GW even their FB is these days official source for rules.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
What a website says doesn't matter and what the rules say do. If they want to allow ambush to put your entire army not on the battlefield they need to change the beta rule or change the ambush rule.

Their website is a much better source for rules clarification than this one. They make the game.

Andykp wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
What a website says doesn't matter and what the rules say do. If they want to allow ambush to put your entire army not on the battlefield they need to change the beta rule or change the ambush rule.

Their website is a much better source for rules clarification than this one. They make the game.

"They" is a misnomer. The social media team do not make the game, and their opinion is not a rules resource.

When it comes to interpreting rules as they stand, sure their opinion if logical is at least as valid as any of ours. It is an opinion though, and could be wrong.

If they state things that aren't based on RAW (essentially issuing their own FAQ/errata), then this can't be trusted as a rules resource, at least until such time as an actual FAQ/errata is issued.

Andykp wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
What a website says doesn't matter and what the rules say do. If they want to allow ambush to put your entire army not on the battlefield they need to change the beta rule or change the ambush rule.

Their website is a much better source for rules clarification than this one. They make the game.

Social Media Interns do not "make the game." The game rules are the rulebooks and FAQs, to say otherwise is to court madness.

1. Markers aren't units so yes.

2. If the model doesn't suffer a wound, or loss of a wound, you failed to wound it. The power would end. The RAW trigger to end is failing to wound, not failing the LD roll off.

3. No brood brothers units can receive orders. The leaked RAW states they replace regiment with brood brothers, and lose Any regiment specific rules, regiment specific stratagems, regiment specific relics, and orders. It does not say regiment specific orders, but simply orders. Current RAW no brood brother units can get orders. This may be supported by the RAI in that their vox casters are reroll morale instead of affecting orders, and voice of command requires <regiment> and although brood brothers replaces that keyword there is no indication it replaces that keyword as a type of Astra Militarism regiment, much like no one can replace <regiment> with Blood Angels to get blood angels stratagems.

blaktoof wrote:
2. If the model doesn't suffer a wound, or loss of a wound, you failed to wound it. The RAW trigger to end is failing to wound, not failing the LD roll off.

Firstly, this is not true in the slightest. It's (probably) why GW errata'd all the stratagems that used "unsaved wound" to "Caused the unit to lose a wound".

Secondly, "The RAW trigger to end is failing to wound, not failing the LD roll off" is also totally untrue. The actual rule says "until either the selected model is destroyed, or you fail to inflict 1 mortal wound by having a score higher than your opponent’s." If it just said "fail to inflict 1 mortal wound", you might have some leg to stand on, but it doesn't so you don't.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
2. If the model doesn't suffer a wound, or loss of a wound, you failed to wound it. The RAW trigger to end is failing to wound, not failing the LD roll off.

Firstly, this is not true in the slightest. It's (probably) why GW errata'd all the stratagems that used "unsaved wound" to "Caused the unit to lose a wound".

Secondly, "The RAW trigger to end is failing to wound, not failing the LD roll off" is also totally untrue. The actual rule says "until either the selected model is destroyed, or you fail to inflict 1 mortal wound by having a score higher than your opponent’s." If it just said "fail to inflict 1 mortal wound", you might have some leg to stand on, but it doesn't so you don't.

They erratted it that way due to the argument of when the effect takes place at the failing of an armor save of the wound, or after the model loses a wound. The result of caused the unit to lose a wound meant that fnp like abilities that prevent the loss of a wound, prevent the effect from triggering if that is the trigger.

As to Mental onslaught, I have only the leaks and grainy images from youtube to get the rules at this point, my codex has yet to arrive. You may be correct, and the leaked text may be inaccurate.

Here's my favorite question to send to GW for FAQing, because this one leads to some hilarious interactions.

BCB, it's one for the signature.

The Locus has a rule that is nearly a copy/paste of the rules for heroic intervention, substituting "6 inches" for "3 inches."

But that would have been TOO EASY for GWs crack team of rules artisans.

They couldn't just copy/paste the functional rule, nononononononoonononononoo, they had to try and type out the new BESPOKE ABILITY "swift intervention" or whatever the feth it's called.

And they started the rule "In the charge phase, after your opponent has completed all their charge moves."

Not "in your opponent's charge phase."

"in the charge phase."

And then they popped that right into a codex with a stratagem that allows them to deep strike a unit within 3" that is then not allowed to charge.

RAW, right now, the locus can deep strike anywhere over 3" from enemy models, then get into combat with that unit with no overwatch allowed.

FAQ got this covered, you can only heroic intervene in the opponents charge phase.

BRB update 1.3
Q: Can you perform Heroic Interventions in your opponent’s
charge phase even if they did not declare any charges
that phase?
A: Yes.
Q: Can you ever perform a Heroic Intervention during your
own turn?
A: No.

 p5freak wrote:
FAQ got this covered, you can only heroic intervene in the opponents charge phase.

BRB update 1.3
Q: Can you perform Heroic Interventions in your opponent’s
charge phase even if they did not declare any charges
that phase?
A: Yes.
Q: Can you ever perform a Heroic Intervention during your
own turn?
A: No.

I'm not performing a Heroic Intervention. I'm performing a "Cultroic Gene-tervention" or whatever the frick his ability is called.

That would be what it would be called in some kind of game system that had universal names for rules that many models have. You'd have the special rule, and it'd say "this model can perform heroic interventions up to 6" away, rather than 3".

Sadly, this is not that kind of game system, and we don't have that kind of luxury here.

We're already at the point where they need to start including "And other similar rules" for practically every common ability, or they've just started adding USRs "by any other name" with stuff like Reinforcements, Character, ETC.

I don't see a single chance in hell they will FAQ ogryn to remain orderable. If the actual guard can't order them then there is NO chance they will let the cult. IMO it's very clear RAI (Unless GW is that stupid), but for now it is RAW and is 100% legal. All IMO of course.

Oh, ok, if its a special ability this heroic intervention FAQ doesnt apply. If its like you said, then yes, he can get into melee without being overwatched.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

I'm not performing a Heroic Intervention. I'm performing a "Cultroic Gene-tervention" or whatever the frick his ability is called.

That would be what it would be called in some kind of game system that had universal names for rules that many models have. You'd have the special rule, and it'd say "this model can perform heroic interventions up to 6" away, rather than 3".

Sadly, this is not that kind of game system, and we don't have that kind of luxury here.

We're already at the point where they need to start including "And other similar rules" for practically every common ability, or they've just started adding USRs "by any other name" with stuff like Reinforcements, Character, ETC.

Oh, ok, if its a special ability this heroic intervention FAQ doesnt apply. If its like you said, then yes, he can get into melee without being overwatched.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I don't see a single chance in hell they will FAQ ogryn to remain orderable. If the actual guard can't order them then there is NO chance they will let the cult. IMO it's very clear RAI (Unless GW is that stupid), but for now it is RAW and is 100% legal. All IMO of course.

IMO, it was originally RAI for brood brothers to not have any orders at all.

They changed the ability of the Vox Caster to no longer interact with orders, instead giving a reroll on morale, and raised the squad cap to 20 casually.

But, then again, they also didnt think about the few PSYKER-keyword units without Bespoke No Perilsies Rules when they designed the Sanctus and his sniper rifle...which removes 7 Rubricae on average for each successful shot as well as causing an average of 2D3 mortal wounds to all units nearby the squad.

Until the 2-week FAQ the Sanctus is just the "oh, you're playing Tzeentch, huehuehuehuehue" character.

If you null deploy your entire army, don't you just auto lose for having zero models on the board?

Yarium wrote:Hey folks!

I've submitted the following questions to GW in regards to the new Genestealer Cult codex. Here's the questions I submitted:

#1 - Can you set up Ambush markers on top of each other or otherwise overlapping each other?

#2 - For Mental Onslaught, if the target has an ability to ignore losing wounds, such as Disgustingly Resilient, and the target passes this roll to prevent losing a wound, do you continue rolling for Mental Onslaught to see if the target loses additional wounds?

#3 - For Astra Militarum detachments that are brought in with Genestealer Cults, where the units replace their <Regiment> with Brood Brothers, but other units simply gain Brood Brothers, does this allow Brood Brothers Company Commanders to issue orders to Brood Brothers Bullgryns, even though they normally wouldn't be able to, as the Bullgryns don't normally have the <Regiment> keyword?

1) I think you'll be able to overlap/stack the markers.

2) I believe you'll still continue the power since you inflicted a MW, it was just ignored

3) RAW, you'll be able to give Bullgryn orders, but I don't expect this to survive the first FAQ. I don't think it was the intention of the rule. Don't build any strategies around this one.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:If you null deploy your entire army, don't you just auto lose for having zero models on the board?

I think that only applies at the end of the battle round, and since ambush tokens are revealed in the Movement Phase, you should still have some left on the board by then.