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Made in ca
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot




Canada

Would it be feesable to make a game mode or alternative specialist game where terminators arent terrible. I mean besides space hulk? Doing it in regular 40k is simply impossible; mega units like knights, riptides, and primarchs pretty much make it impossible to ever make them good and if that wasnt bad enough their cost vs that of just massed gunfire is horribly one sided or even just things equal to plasma guns en masse which have basically become a default gun statline for some armies.

so i ask you, could you ever cut the game down to where they arent awful?

DA army: 3500pts,
admech army: 600pts
ravenguard: 565 pts

 
   
Made in us
Grizzled MkII Monster Veteran





Mississippi

Advanced Space Crusade & Shadow War had options where you could bring in Terminators (as did Betrayal At Calth and Deathwatch: Overkill), and they weren't any worse than you'd see in Space Hulk.

GW could make them viable for Kill Team (as a sort of one-man-army), but I don't think they ever will. I imagine they'd also be decent in Blackstone Fortress (if you can have a robot player in that game, Terminator should be easy as pie).

And that's, I think, where they would really shine - you'd have to make a game mode where the "one-man-army" is a viable option as well as something opponents wouldn't mind facing. Better for a players-vs-environment than a Player-vs-player.

Terminators have the same problems as ninjas - if you make them a solo operative, they can be made unstoppable. But the more you get to field at one time, the easier they tend to be to kill.

It never ends well 
   
Made in gb
Waaagh! Ork Warboss






You're better off just playing games without TITANIC units, it makes the game orders of magnitude better.

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Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. Zoom in to read them. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect; and vehicles that are "slain" by a special effect do not trigger the "Explodes" ability; Taking any Forge World Space Marine Named Characters denies the use of a Chapter Tactic; and Chapter Tactics do not work on Successor Chapters.
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Made in gb
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





 BaconCatBug wrote:
You're better off just playing games without TITANIC units, it makes the game orders of magnitude better.


I'd go further than that, and look at a format closer to 2nd ed 40k.

Play something like 1k to 1250 points (which in 2nd money is about 2k now). No LoW. Restrict models over 9 wounds to something like 3 per army.

Probably wants a tad more nuance than that, but you get the idea. More infantry focused, far fewer heavy weapons (why bother taking so many when your opponent won't have many vehicles).
   
Made in gb
Road-Raging Blood Angel Biker





Luton, England

Zone mortalis! Close quarters fighting meaning all their weapons are useful. No massive units with huge guns and hard to bring mass weight of fire to bear due to LOS.

This plus it's really thematic to use them there.

Downside is there are no official rules, I have made some homebrew ones which work really well if your interested let me know.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/10 13:32:51


30,000pts
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4,000pts
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Made in de
Dakka Veteran





Terminators will never be a thing like in 2nd. Case closed.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




I hope your wrong most of GK army is in termintor armor and that is including almost all of their HQ
   
Made in ca
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot




Canada

 Strg Alt wrote:
Terminators will never be a thing like in 2nd. Case closed.
they were okay in 5.5 after the faq's and erratas

DA army: 3500pts,
admech army: 600pts
ravenguard: 565 pts

 
   
Made in ca
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





London, Ontario

I think you could make 3 terminators work in 100 pts of KT. Maybe even 4.

Most games I play have large numbers of upgrade weapons. Missile Launchers, Plasma, that sort of thing.

Termies are awesome against “grunts” but my meta has few grunts. We all seem to gravitate towards making killy teams so I think Termies would mesh well in my meta.

If you’re using a lot of lasguns and bolters... Termies will be amazeballs. But ‘roun’ he-ah, they’d be MEQ with a storm bolter and a +1 save. So basically two Marines with bolters standings beside each other (24 pts) plus a Power Fist (3 points) plus a 2+ save (4 points) = 31 points.

Multiply by 0.75 due to being single model, more susceptible to multi-damage weapons and lesser board control. Roughly 23 points each in Kill Team, plus an Assault Cannon or heavy Flamer at about 5 points... a 4-man Termie Team would be 97 points? I’d take a crack at it.
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Stux wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
You're better off just playing games without TITANIC units, it makes the game orders of magnitude better.


I'd go further than that, and look at a format closer to 2nd ed 40k.

Play something like 1k to 1250 points (which in 2nd money is about 2k now). No LoW. Restrict models over 9 wounds to something like 3 per army.

Probably wants a tad more nuance than that, but you get the idea. More infantry focused, far fewer heavy weapons (why bother taking so many when your opponent won't have many vehicles).


1k akin to 2nd ed's 2k was true maybe in like 3rd ed. With all the point drops(marines almost 1/3 of what they costed in 2nd ed...), expensive vehicles and characters...In 2nd ed single leman russ was fearful force and lone dreadnoughts were power to behold.

Good times though. 2nd ed battle sized were much more appropriate for 28mm models. Now you would need serious upping of board sizes but that' not feasible so we end up with overcrammed boards :-/

“Nothing has a definite nature, so people cannot be purely evil. Even so-called evil people will aspire to follow a moral path when they feel a sense of community.” – Kukai

~12200 pts
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Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





 ionusx wrote:
Would it be feesable to make a game mode or alternative specialist game where terminators arent terrible. I mean besides space hulk? Doing it in regular 40k is simply impossible; mega units like knights, riptides, and primarchs pretty much make it impossible to ever make them good and if that wasnt bad enough their cost vs that of just massed gunfire is horribly one sided or even just things equal to plasma guns en masse which have basically become a default gun statline for some armies.

so i ask you, could you ever cut the game down to where they arent awful?


Making terminators toughness 5 would be the simple fix.

Needing strength 10 to get 2+ to wound and most basic small arms needing 5+ would be a decent boost to their survivability.

You could probably even make them toughness 6 and power armour toughness 5 and it would fix space marines as a whole.

I for one welcome our new revenant titan overlords... 
   
Made in fi
Junior Officer with Laspistol







 Strg Alt wrote:
Terminators will never be a thing like in 2nd. Case closed.


If making a Terminator-focused ruleset or scenario, I think I'd look at close quarters actions, something close to if not exactly Space Hulk. Limited LOS to bring heavy weapons to bear, short distances to let the lumbering hard bois bring their short ranged heavy weapons to bear, and plenty of choke points to help manage their limited numbers against hordes of punier foes. As in Space Hulk, movement, individual model facing and action economy would be of vital importance.

edited by ingtaer

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/11 11:56:46


"The place they go towards is a place even less imaginable to most of us than the city of happiness. I cannot describe it at all. It is possible it does not exist. But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas." 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut




I would like to point out that in the recent LVO a list with 10 terminators had a really good showing, so things don't look so grim.

After the buffs and especially with BBolters, terminators are no longer a joke unit. They can be made to work in competitive lists.
Sure they will not work at the top tables of big events, but honestly 90% of the models doesn't.
   
Made in fi
Junior Officer with Laspistol







If GW ever does a 40k version of Underworlds, where each warband has a set composition and individual choice comes to play in deck building and strategy, a trio or pair of terminators would be a fine pick as one of the boxes (I believe the Stormcast team in Underworlds has only three models, for example).

"The place they go towards is a place even less imaginable to most of us than the city of happiness. I cannot describe it at all. It is possible it does not exist. But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas." 
   
Made in us
Lesser Daemon of Chaos







I think the current Kill Team could definitely handle terminators with a small points increase from the standard 100 or just by using Commanders. However, GW has historically been frightened that 2+ saves are too much for Kill Team so I kinda doubt that will happen. That saves me a lot of money since if GW did allow terminators in Kill Team, I would get a box for every faction I don't already have ones for (mostly Gray Knights and Thousand Sons).

I didn't get enough games in to know for sure, but Heralds of Ruin's 7th edition Kill Team rules allowed terminators. I can't remember if they were really good, but I think they were. I remember HoR Kill Team being a really good rules set. Crunchier than the current GW Kill Team game and with more unit selection. Arguably a better game overall. I would probably break it out if I was looking for something a little more involved than the current Kill Team rules.

2400pts Black Legion Background
1200 pts Fallen Dark Angels Background
Admech Kill Team Background Necron Kill Team Background Grey Knights Kill Team Background Dark Eldar Kill Team Background 
   
Made in us
Witch Hunter Undercover in a Cult







Terminators do better in Zone Mortalis-style play (highly restricted line of sight, no indirect-fire weapons, highly restricted vehicles/monsters).

Victoria est autem vita.

Stories at https://knightofthegrey.wordpress.com/
Game-related musings at https://thescenicdetour.wordpress.com/
Both updated irregularly 
   
Made in us
Battle-tested Knight Castellan Pilot






 Agamemnon2 wrote:
If GW ever does a 40k version of Underworlds
I would so LOVE to see Underworlds in 40K and Kill Team in AoS. I think both would be awesome! Here's to hoping!

SG


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoletta wrote:
I would like to point out that in the recent LVO a list with 10 terminators had a really good showing, so things don't look so grim.
Which chapter were these Terminators from?

Thanks

SG

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/11 20:08:55


40K - Imperial Knights (House Hawkshroud) with Imperial Guard allies
AoS - Seraphon
Warhammer Underworlds - Garrek’s Reavers

*** I only play for fun. I do not play competitively. *** 
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran





 Agamemnon2 wrote:
 Strg Alt wrote:
Terminators will never be a thing like in 2nd. Case closed.


If making a Terminator-focused ruleset or scenario, I think I'd look at close quarters actions, something close to if not exactly Space Hulk. Limited LOS to bring heavy weapons to bear, short distances to let the lumbering hard bois bring their short ranged heavy weapons to bear, and plenty of choke points to help manage their limited numbers against hordes of punier foes. As in Space Hulk, movement, individual model facing and action economy would be of vital importance.

edited by ingtaer


So you want to reinvent Space Hulk?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ionusx wrote:
 Strg Alt wrote:
Terminators will never be a thing like in 2nd. Case closed.
they were okay in 5.5 after the faq's and erratas


They need their 3+ save on 2D6 back like in 2nd. Anything else won´t matter much. They are wearing tactical dreadnought armour after all.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/12 14:22:43


 
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch






We had a local community fix prior to Chapter Approved 2018 and the Beta Bolter rule.

We reduced all non-Character terminators by 8 points, and provided them with three wounds instead of two. Made a world of difference. We've removed that since they got a points drop and beta bolters (though we'll reconsider adjusting them later). Everyone owned them and no one took them, even in casual games, so we mixed it up a bit.

I think to make them (or any Marine units) feel like the fluff you'll need a separate game. We're working on a less-limited version of Space Hulk as well, providing for developing squads of terminators in a variety of environments with all sorts of opponents, etc.

 
   
Made in fi
Junior Officer with Laspistol







 Strg Alt wrote:
 Agamemnon2 wrote:
 Strg Alt wrote:
Terminators will never be a thing like in 2nd. Case closed.


If making a Terminator-focused ruleset or scenario, I think I'd look at close quarters actions, something close to if not exactly Space Hulk. Limited LOS to bring heavy weapons to bear, short distances to let the lumbering hard bois bring their short ranged heavy weapons to bear, and plenty of choke points to help manage their limited numbers against hordes of punier foes. As in Space Hulk, movement, individual model facing and action economy would be of vital importance.

edited by ingtaer


So you want to reinvent Space Hulk?

There's worse things in the world than Space Hulk with more opponent variety than just Genestealers.

"The place they go towards is a place even less imaginable to most of us than the city of happiness. I cannot describe it at all. It is possible it does not exist. But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas." 
   
Made in gb
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





 Agamemnon2 wrote:
 Strg Alt wrote:
 Agamemnon2 wrote:
 Strg Alt wrote:
Terminators will never be a thing like in 2nd. Case closed.


If making a Terminator-focused ruleset or scenario, I think I'd look at close quarters actions, something close to if not exactly Space Hulk. Limited LOS to bring heavy weapons to bear, short distances to let the lumbering hard bois bring their short ranged heavy weapons to bear, and plenty of choke points to help manage their limited numbers against hordes of punier foes. As in Space Hulk, movement, individual model facing and action economy would be of vital importance.

edited by ingtaer


So you want to reinvent Space Hulk?

There's worse things in the world than Space Hulk with more opponent variety than just Genestealers.


At that point, the best option is probably homebrew rules for Terminators in Kill Team, as already suggested. Arena maybe.
   
Made in us
Witch Hunter Undercover in a Cult







 ServiceGames wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoletta wrote:
I would like to point out that in the recent LVO a list with 10 terminators had a really good showing, so things don't look so grim.
Which chapter were these Terminators from?

Thanks

SG


I'm looking, and I haven't found one with ten but I've seen a LVO Sororitas/Knights/Deathwatch soup list with five Terminators spread amongst the Deathwatch Kill-Teams. They're actually a surprisingly attractive choice with the drop from 39pts/model in the Codex to 31pts/model in the Index with sword/SB.

Victoria est autem vita.

Stories at https://knightofthegrey.wordpress.com/
Game-related musings at https://thescenicdetour.wordpress.com/
Both updated irregularly 
   
Made in us
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran





 BaconCatBug wrote:
You're better off just playing games without TITANIC units, it makes the game orders of magnitude better.
Outside of YMDC, you and I seem to have many opinions in common.

Coupled with the recent changes to termies, they can be a lot more viable.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/12 19:10:29


 
   
Made in us
Powerful Irongut




 greatbigtree wrote:
Termies are awesome against “grunts” but my meta has few grunts. We all seem to gravitate towards making killy teams so I think Termies would mesh well in my meta.


People point this out but then nobody says to increase the power ratio of grunts in games. You could make everything no on a 40mm base or smaller have -1 to hit vs infantry in cover. You could give infantry, weak as they are, a phase of overwatch shooting in their opponents’ turn at -1 bs. You could give them a consolidation move every turn they don’t fail a Ld check on their opponent’s turn. You could give them +d3 D if they’re within half range of a tank and didn’t move. Space marines still field terminators in battles that aren’t zone mortalis, they’re good against grunts, so you should just make grunts more common and more valuable targets in big games that have titans.
   
 
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