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Made in ca
Wicked Wych With a Whip




I don't like invul saves.

Thats not true, I like invul saves just fine as a spice. When they are the meat there is a problem.

I have other thoughts for smaller units but for the knight why not give it void shields? Void shields are completely impenetrable, until they go down. To wound it you roll against toughness and they get and armor save as normal with normal AP. Then the first on that gets through goes against the void shield instead of the wounds. After that no shield everything goes straight to wounds.

Beating a 3 up re rollable is fine once. But for ever basted shot its a chore.
   
Made in gb
Lethal Lhamean




Birmingham

Better idea, remove Iron Bulwalk, now no Knight will ever have a 3++.
   
Made in ca
Wicked Wych With a Whip




I'm fine with that butif you wanted to make them tough, with out being tedious a void shield might be a way.

Also a 4 up re rollable is still a pain.

But I guess a 4 up re rollable for 3 (or4) comand points is ok.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/12 01:38:10


 
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Uhm knights don't have 4++ rerollable? Okay they can reroll one with command CP but you don't shoot one shot per turn at them anyway if you want to kill them(24+ wounds. Nothing in this game has big enough damage value to do that much wounds I think)

https://middleagedstrategybattlegamers.home.blog/2019/09/12/tneva82-minas-tirith-vs-isengard/ <- lotr painting blog

12 factions for Lord of The Rings
11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
5265 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





void shields in 8th ARE an invuln, just one that degrades with wounds taken. it wouldn’t reallychange much
   
Made in fi
Dakka Veteran






 WindstormSCR wrote:
void shields in 8th ARE an invuln, just one that degrades with wounds taken. it wouldn’t reallychange much


And they suck hard, both because they don't really do much and work counter to the lore. If the titans had a varying amount of ablative wounds around them before getting hurt, that would be cool again.

Knights don't have voids though, ion shields are different. Remove boosting traits and relics and it'll be fine.

Heavily converted tall scaled 30k / 40k loyalist Death Guard blog here, C&C welcome https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/717557.page
Now with titans! Legio Favilla walks! 
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 WindstormSCR wrote:
void shields in 8th ARE an invuln, just one that degrades with wounds taken. it wouldn’t reallychange much


And which sucks balls. It goes totally against fluff and makes for counter intuitive order to shoot. Rather than shoot lesser guns first to drop shields followed by big guns it's actually reverse.

Well. Not that it really matters. Voids are basically only on titans and 40k is lousy system for those. Breaks the scale completely resulting in boring game. One side has titan, one doesn't. Titan side loses. Both have, the one that starts wins.

https://middleagedstrategybattlegamers.home.blog/2019/09/12/tneva82-minas-tirith-vs-isengard/ <- lotr painting blog

12 factions for Lord of The Rings
11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
5265 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights

 
   
Made in it
Poxed Plague Monk





Sesto San Giovanni, Italy

Spoiler:

Better idea, remove Iron Bulwalk, now no Knight will ever have a 3++.


False. All FW Knight will still sports a 3++ (and they're not game breaking), whilst Castellan will probably be over-nerfed defensively since it will have a 5++ upgradable to 4++ by 3CP. And for 1-2 CP you have a 2+ relic... But I think this was a sore-thumb post more than a productive one.

I honestly like the idea, but following the current rules for Void Shield. A degrading invulnerable save from Void Shield will probably feel better on the Knight, as long as the Mechanicus stratagems for full efficiency specify that doesn't work on the saves, and you remove one of the stat that goes down (Movement, probably, even if in the case of the Gallant the BS may be removed from the does degrading profile since it does not use it). Correct me if I'm wrong, but not model under 8th rules have more or less that 3 reducing characteristics (and 3 degrading profile, for what's worth). It will be bad to house-rules one of the few game elements un which they have been consistent.

Another interaction is related to Mortal Wound. Void Shield blocks them, so the Knight generally speaking lose as much as they gain because you remove one their liability. Currently in the entire Knight Codex there is a Mechanicus Knight stratagem for a 5+++ during a phase, while Hawkshroud (Imperial) has a relic for a 4+++ but only during psychic phase. Both can still work.

Gallant will result probably overpowered with a "real" Void Shield mechanics
because you have almost no chance of degrading me in the only turn you have (if you're lucky) before I impact your front line.

So, it may works almost as-it-is under the current rules, but changes very very little. Your beef is not with the 3++, it's with a specific unit (the Castellan) with a specific setup. In my Knights list I don't ever used the Ion Bulwark, it's overkill almost all the time.


That said, a 3++ vs a 4++ means, in reality, an adjusted wound count of 47 / 42 (on a Castellan) or a 40 / 36 on another Knight.
Your problem cannot be 5/4 extra wound when you have to already inflict north of 40 damage. A difference around 10% is weep within the standard distribution of rolls.
The 6+++ alone impact almost the same as total wound, but is even better because works against Mortal Wound and all small fire (while Invulnerable is redundant with armour). And the Household wiith 6+++ is Mechanicus and have a respawn stratagem... plus the stratagem to fight at full efficiency. Yet none seems to play it, it's Raven all the time.

The really problematic stratagem is Order of Companion applied on a relic. It's ok on a battle cannon (makes it at least usable),it's overkill on Cawl Wrath. That' it. If I may apply the Order of Companion to the Thunder of Voltoris (house Terryn relic battle cannon) it will be also broken as hell.
I have even wondered if the interaction between Order of Companion and the Blessed by the Sacristan trait (a not-relic weapon inflict an adjusted extra Mortal Wound on a Wound roll of 6) has been considered.
But, really... it's 1 household-specific stratagem. No need to tinker with anything else.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Go ahead give knights void shields, I'll take a 4++ against every thing including MW. You watch the salt that will come for Eldar and their HW spamming lists.
Also the house FNP actually doesn't work on MW you need to use a strategum for the FNP against MW for knights. AKA a codex with some powerful strategums balanced by being able to get 6 CP mono at codex drop and now 9, 12 (including BF) if you go all out.
Or for the cost if an Armiger you can have 5 CP and 30 obsec bodies.

But on topic voild shields are titan etc sized things all the way up to starships, ion shields and ionic flare shields are supposed to be different things.

Also having thats that have to be brought down then regenerate is a very gamey solution to a problem with the CP generation system rewarding spamming the cheapest troops and HQ's over cohesive armies.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/12 11:19:20


 
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Void shields going down and coming back(struggling to stay up if you are under any attack) has been part of void shields...oh like 30 years.

It allows for interesting interaction where you need both high rate of fire(knock down shields) and then big armour busters once shields are down. Firing volcano cannons vs void shielded target is just waste of time and resources. Bombard it first with stuff like autocannons, krak missiles etc.

It also leads to situation where titan is pretty much impervious at random haphazard shots but will melt under dedicated firepower in short period.

In any case not help with knights. They don't carry void shields. Too bad GW dropped fire arcs so knights lost major balancing factor from the shields. Specfically covering only one area so outflanking titans exposed them to damage.

https://middleagedstrategybattlegamers.home.blog/2019/09/12/tneva82-minas-tirith-vs-isengard/ <- lotr painting blog

12 factions for Lord of The Rings
11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
5265 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




tneva82 wrote:
Void shields going down and coming back(struggling to stay up if you are under any attack) has been part of void shields...oh like 30 years.

It allows for interesting interaction where you need both high rate of fire(knock down shields) and then big armour busters once shields are down. Firing volcano cannons vs void shielded target is just waste of time and resources. Bombard it first with stuff like autocannons, krak missiles etc.

It also leads to situation where titan is pretty much impervious at random haphazard shots but will melt under dedicated firepower in short period.

In any case not help with knights. They don't carry void shields. Too bad GW dropped fire arcs so knights lost major balancing factor from the shields. Specfically covering only one area so outflanking titans exposed them to damage.

I don't have an issue with void shields on things with void shields (and they usually cost 1k points plus so your not exactly going to be keeping track of more than 1) but extending the mechanic to something else as a solution to a problem with another area of the rules is a rediculous gamey non solution to the problem.
   
Made in it
Whiteshield Conscript Trooper




Italy

 Cybtroll wrote:

False. All FW Knight will still sports a 3++ (and they're not game breaking)

Only Magaera, Styrix and the Atropos have a base 4++.
Porphyrion, Acheron, Castigator and Lancer (who have a 4++ in the fight phase) all have a 5++

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/12 12:15:22


 
   
 
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