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Marines get the following:

2 Wounds
-1 AP Boltguns (I'd be okay with this on everyone with adjusted point costs)
2 Attacks

Get rid of the difference between Primaris and Normal marines.

Mix all the captain options, I'd say hand out more options (like Lieutenant in Terminator Armour)
Intercessors/Tacticals become the same unit.
Devastators/Hellblasters become the same unit

Terminators stay 2 wounds, but get a 4+ invul (With according price changes, a 5+ invul doesn't do much)
Bikes either become 2 Wounds T5, or 3 Wounds T4, idk which is better.
I don't think some of the Primaris units can be condensed and have to stay their seperate thing, but that works.

Prices are adjusted as needed of course.

Agree, minus the not bumping Termie and Bike statlines. Maybe not the -1AP boltgun either - that's what plasma is for, and the game needs less low AP not more. Although they already have it.

Bharring wrote:
Agree, minus the not bumping Termie and Bike statlines. Maybe not the -1AP boltgun either - that's what plasma is for, and the game needs less low AP not more. Although they already have it.

I'd say that might be fair, but boltgun output is simply terrible (And the current fix doesn't do Gak imo). I don't get why Bikes are so tough tbh, I've never gotten it. I could see Termie's being 3W, but plasma is made to kill them in ideal conditions, I just think plasma needs a change.

I don't mind Orkz and Eldar gaining +1T when they're on bikes. I wouldn't mind Necrons, IG, etc getting that too.

I, too, don't get why SM Bikes are tougher than SM. If the bike is tougher than Power Armor, then Marines would wear what the Bike was made out of. If it's not tougher than Power Armor, then a Bike is certainly no tougher than a Marine - and is easier to hit.

There's a reason cavalry have dismounted before engaging in combat since ranged weapons dominated warfare. It just made you a larger, less protected target.

In a perfect world, Bikes would be much faster than non-bikes, but no tougher (outside Orkz). Maybe still the extra wound, but not +1T.

That said, that's out of scope of this thread.

Back OT, my personal favorite fix for Marines is:
-Nerf most AP-1 to AP0 - with some exceptions (Necron Gauss, Autocannon, etc)
-Nerf most AP-2 to AP-1
-Nerf a few other offenders (Bladestorm would be AP-2)
-Drop D2 from Plasma and similar (IoM OC Plasma, Dissie, Reaper S5 shots, StarCannon, etc)
-Consolidate Primaris/RealMarine statlines. Certainly A2, but could go with either W1 or W2 (and be pointed appropriately).

But that would take a *lot* more to do (and would change almost every army).

And another thread realizes that we need 9th.

I'm genuinely starting to think that there's not enough space in the scale of 40k to fix marines.

The statlines have a scale of 10, and the dice rolls have a scale of 6. with everything hurting everything, the scale of 10 becomes a bit irrelevant.

So you're left with needing between a 2+ and 6+, which is only 5 options, and having to fit everything onto this scale - from mostly naked mini gremlins (grots) to the largest, most powerful battle tank in the imperiums army. All needing to fit on this scale with regards to "how good is their armour?"

so it all works well until you get past terminators - then you get silly things arising, like a marine having the same armour as a baneblade, because it all has to bunch up. and once the saves max out, the toughness gets boosted, and it all goes wrong.

A complete rewrite which combines the S vs T and save modifiers would be the way to go - meaning tougher units witha 3+ save have a better save than less tough units.

Then you just boost the toughness orf marines, or give them a special rule.

The reason marines aren't performing like marines should is because nothing is. a landraider should never, ever, get damaged by a grot blaster.

 some bloke wrote:
I'm genuinely starting to think that there's not enough space in the scale of 40k to fix marines.

The statlines have a scale of 10, and the dice rolls have a scale of 6. with everything hurting everything, the scale of 10 becomes a bit irrelevant.

So you're left with needing between a 2+ and 6+, which is only 5 options, and having to fit everything onto this scale - from mostly naked mini gremlins (grots) to the largest, most powerful battle tank in the imperiums army. All needing to fit on this scale with regards to "how good is their armour?"

so it all works well until you get past terminators - then you get silly things arising, like a marine having the same armour as a baneblade, because it all has to bunch up. and once the saves max out, the toughness gets boosted, and it all goes wrong.

A complete rewrite which combines the S vs T and save modifiers would be the way to go - meaning tougher units witha 3+ save have a better save than less tough units.

Then you just boost the toughness orf marines, or give them a special rule.

The reason marines aren't performing like marines should is because nothing is. a landraider should never, ever, get damaged by a grot blaster.

Personally I'd rather have the scale toned down, I think it's gotten out of hand. That's unrealistic at best though, but something like that could work, it'd decrease the number of shots needed to kill things though.

Primaris and miniMarines need to stay separated, full stop.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Primaris and miniMarines need to stay separated, full stop.

And the reasons for this are...?

Minimarines should have had Primaris stats from the start of 8th, and Chaos should get these rules too since they aren't getting primarised any time soon.

Why?

A green Marine who was a Scout yesterday wearing a poorly maintained set of the worst mark Power Armor evar has the same stats as the most experienced pre-vet Marine in the chapter, who's been serving for centuries. And only varies from the very best Veteran battlebrother (non-command) by +1A/+1Ld.

An Exarch with a week of experience has the same stats as an Exarch older than the Imperium itself.

An Ork who's only a half-CM shorter than da boss has the same stats as the runt of the litter.

Not all Marines have the same marksmen skill, but they're all BS3+. A flabby cushioned human civilian who would die if he had to walk a mile has the same T3 as the most elite human spec ops veteran.

Stats already cover a range.

I think that T > 2X S should be unable to wound.

Bharring wrote:
I don't mind Orkz and Eldar gaining +1T when they're on bikes. I wouldn't mind Necrons, IG, etc getting that too.

I, too, don't get why SM Bikes are tougher than SM. If the bike is tougher than Power Armor, then Marines would wear what the Bike was made out of. If it's not tougher than Power Armor, then a Bike is certainly no tougher than a Marine - and is easier to hit.

There's a reason cavalry have dismounted before engaging in combat since ranged weapons dominated warfare. It just made you a larger, less protected target.

In a perfect world, Bikes would be much faster than non-bikes, but no tougher (outside Orkz). Maybe still the extra wound, but not +1T.

That said, that's out of scope of this thread.

Back OT, my personal favorite fix for Marines is:
-Nerf most AP-1 to AP0 - with some exceptions (Necron Gauss, Autocannon, etc)
-Nerf most AP-2 to AP-1
-Nerf a few other offenders (Bladestorm would be AP-2)
-Drop D2 from Plasma and similar (IoM OC Plasma, Dissie, Reaper S5 shots, StarCannon, etc)
-Consolidate Primaris/RealMarine statlines. Certainly A2, but could go with either W1 or W2 (and be pointed appropriately).

But that would take a *lot* more to do (and would change almost every army).

I agree with most of those, I think it'd do a lot to make the game less killy, I think either W1 or W2 would work, I've just found W2 makes them feel alot more like marines should, and definitely A2. My biggest issue rn is that the difference between a marine and a primaris is larger than the difference between a guardsmen and a marine, which just makes no sense imo.

 Sir Heckington wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Primaris and miniMarines need to stay separated, full stop.

And the reasons for this are...?

Minimarines should have had Primaris stats from the start of 8th, and Chaos should get these rules too since they aren't getting primarised any time soon.

They're separate units with separate concepts with separate roles. They simply need to be executed better.

Also the simple fix to CSM is to give everything Vet stats, remove the basic Chaos Marine from the game, and make Chosen troops.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Primaris and miniMarines need to stay separated, full stop.

And the reasons for this are...?

Minimarines should have had Primaris stats from the start of 8th, and Chaos should get these rules too since they aren't getting primarised any time soon.

They're separate units with separate concepts with separate roles. They simply need to be executed better.

Also the simple fix to CSM is to give everything Vet stats, remove the basic Chaos Marine from the game, and make Chosen troops.

Also, I disagree that they should be, anyway.

And what about marines that have recently converted to chaos? Guess they just don't exist?

Intercessors and Tac Marines don't fill different roles kitted the same way. One just fills the other's role, but worse.

Kitted differently, they fill different roles. But that remains true whether or not you squash the profile.

Their different profile serves no role.

(Any change to basic Marines would obviously affect CSM the same way.)

Bharring wrote:
Intercessors and Tac Marines don't fill different roles kitted the same way. One just fills the other's role, but worse.

Kitted differently, they fill different roles. But that remains true whether or not you squash the profile.

Their different profile serves no role.

(Any change to basic Marines would obviously affect CSM the same way.)

This. And the only other profile merged is Hellblasters/Devs, all the others are unique enough to be their own thing.

 Sir Heckington wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Primaris and miniMarines need to stay separated, full stop.

And the reasons for this are...?

Minimarines should have had Primaris stats from the start of 8th, and Chaos should get these rules too since they aren't getting primarised any time soon.

They're separate units with separate concepts with separate roles. They simply need to be executed better.

Also the simple fix to CSM is to give everything Vet stats, remove the basic Chaos Marine from the game, and make Chosen troops.

Also, I disagree that they should be, anyway.

And what about marines that have recently converted to chaos? Guess they just don't exist?

This would require a separate thread, but I'll say the idea here.

Renegades are executed terribly. Simply put. They somehow still operate like the Legions prior, which makes no sense. Renegades should be handled via switching around of keywords in the main Vanilla codex (along with a consolidated Blood/Dark Angels), and Renegades lose access to the specialty units the Chapter might have originally had but gain a couple of different new ones (I'm thinking Spawn, Possessed, and Warp Talons is a good start).

Because renegades will instantly know how to get posessed, not to mention spawn.

Also a these units are bad except the spawn which is ok.

But the switching and baseline suggestion is 1A and should be how renegades get handled.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Because renegades will instantly know how to get posessed, not to mention spawn.

Also a these units are bad except the spawn which is ok.

But the switching and baseline suggestion is 1A and should be how renegades get handled.

You don't JUST get Possessed and Spawn. They kinda happen...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also it's implied certain units get fixed. Not sure why the concepts need to be mutually exclusive.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Because renegades will instantly know how to get posessed, not to mention spawn.

Also a these units are bad except the spawn which is ok.

But the switching and baseline suggestion is 1A and should be how renegades get handled.

You don't JUST get Possessed and Spawn. They kinda happen...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also it's implied certain units get fixed. Not sure why the concepts need to be mutually exclusive.

Posessed don't just happen and spawn only just happens if you annoy a sorcerer enough or are preeeeeeety deep allready involved with Chaos.
Which many renegades aren't.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Because renegades will instantly know how to get posessed, not to mention spawn.

Also a these units are bad except the spawn which is ok.

But the switching and baseline suggestion is 1A and should be how renegades get handled.

You don't JUST get Possessed and Spawn. They kinda happen...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also it's implied certain units get fixed. Not sure why the concepts need to be mutually exclusive.

Posessed don't just happen and spawn only just happens if you annoy a sorcerer enough or are preeeeeeety deep allready involved with Chaos.
Which many renegades aren't.

I'm curious then what your recommendations for a daemonic specific unit then. My Loyalist Scum codex revisions are like 90% done but I'll take suggestions on this.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


Posessed don't just happen and spawn only just happens if you annoy a sorcerer enough or are preeeeeeety deep allready involved with Chaos.
Which many renegades aren't.

I'm curious then what your recommendations for a daemonic specific unit then. My Loyalist Scum codex revisions are like 90% done but I'll take suggestions on this.

Yeah I know we would all prefer marks that do something, but now they don't. I'm trying to keep this in line with the current design philosophy.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah I know we would all prefer marks that do something, but now they don't. I'm trying to keep this in line with the current design philosophy.

TBF, Feth the current design philosophy.
Look at what they did to the Renegades.
Look what they did with the CSM codex.

And look how much it brought them.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah I know we would all prefer marks that do something, but now they don't. I'm trying to keep this in line with the current design philosophy.

TBF, Feth the current design philosophy.
Look at what they did to the Renegades.
Look what they did with the CSM codex.

And look how much it brought them.

Oh I'm in agreement with you. I'm personally wanting to gut the main CSM codex.
1. The Cult Legions are gonna get their own codex anyway. So we just need to be honest with ourselves on that one.
2. We handle Renegades how I slightly outlined and remove them
3. Then we can focus on Alpha Legion, Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, and Black Legion.
4. Compared to how I want to handle Loyalists (consolidated Angels, and each Chapter simply gets 2-4 unique units, as honestly the only Chapter that's hard to really consolidate is Space Wolves and otherwise everyone isn't organized too differently), these Legions in the codex get a unique Troop (I'm of course thinking in line with last edition. Raptors for Night Lords, Possessed for Word Bearers, Havocs for Iron Warriors, Terminators for Black Legion, and I can't figure out Alpha Legion because...) with Chosen becoming the primary Troop choice.

I think I outlined everything for my eventual post and necro of my 8th edition ideas.

With renegades i meant R&H.

Personally, i would rather have a large csm codex with more worked out subfactions. But your solution also works.
Edit: Infact a lot of factions got gutted in the Wargear options: Ard'boyz f.e., Chaos marks, etc. Instead we now got a minidex for ever little unnecessary blip which allows gw to sell more books.

Not Online!!! wrote:
With renegades i meant R&H.

Personally, i would rather have a large csm codex with more worked out subfactions. But your solution also works.
Edit: Infact a lot of factions got gutted in the Wargear options: Ard'boyz f.e., Chaos marks, etc. Instead we now got a minidex for ever little unnecessary blip which allows gw to sell more books.

To be fair, assuming good internal balance, I'm actually excited for EC and WE players because I like how DG and TS were handled as individual armies.
Meanwhile, even though there are clearly differences in combat approach, the core Legions I talked about are more organized similarly, which is why I feel a focused approach on them as a singular codex leads to better internal + external balance. Also just assume I have various ideas on how to fix the more meh units.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
With renegades i meant R&H.

Personally, i would rather have a large csm codex with more worked out subfactions. But your solution also works.
Edit: Infact a lot of factions got gutted in the Wargear options: Ard'boyz f.e., Chaos marks, etc. Instead we now got a minidex for ever little unnecessary blip which allows gw to sell more books.

To be fair, assuming good internal balance, I'm actually excited for EC and WE players because I like how DG and TS were handled as individual armies.
Meanwhile, even though there are clearly differences in combat approach, the core Legions I talked about are more organized similarly, which is why I feel a focused approach on them as a singular codex leads to better internal + external balance. Also just assume I have various ideas on how to fix the more meh units.

I can't stand the TS and DG dexes. and we saw how "balanced" they turned out. And the regular CSM dex is now just a husk of it's former self and people now need to buy more books to get to play a faction.

I see your point, but i am also kinda fed up with the minidexes.

Also comparing AL to WB and the rest of the core legions f.e. is completely nonsensical. AL has a complete other doctrine F.e. and key feature, was not thrown back into the warp.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
With renegades i meant R&H.

Personally, i would rather have a large csm codex with more worked out subfactions. But your solution also works.
Edit: Infact a lot of factions got gutted in the Wargear options: Ard'boyz f.e., Chaos marks, etc. Instead we now got a minidex for ever little unnecessary blip which allows gw to sell more books.

To be fair, assuming good internal balance, I'm actually excited for EC and WE players because I like how DG and TS were handled as individual armies.
Meanwhile, even though there are clearly differences in combat approach, the core Legions I talked about are more organized similarly, which is why I feel a focused approach on them as a singular codex leads to better internal + external balance. Also just assume I have various ideas on how to fix the more meh units.

I can't stand the TS and DG dexes. and we saw how "balanced" they turned out. And the regular CSM dex is now just a husk of it's former self and people now need to buy more books to get to play a faction.

I see your point, but i am also kinda fed up with the minidexes.

Also comparing AL to WB and the rest of the core legions f.e. is completely nonsensical. AL has a complete other doctrine F.e. and key feature, was not thrown back into the warp.

I'm more referring to internal organization but I understand your point.

Also I do promise I have various ideas for DG and Thousand Sons for internal + external balance. That's why I said "assuming internal + external balance" I like the organization for the codices. It isn't everyone's cup of tea though.

Fair enough, that said AL is even in it's internal organization so diffrent that i quesion if it would be a good idea to mix them in with the regular CSM's.