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One of the primary reasons I decided to step away from 40k before returning reletavely recently (amoung several other things) was the seeming lack of consistency of model scale in the 40K range. Though im sure this is an issue many can simply ignore without too much trouble, it has always been something which has consistently annoyed me. Firstly I accept that most of the GW range is 'heroic scale', where most of the figures proportions are distorted so that they stand out more clearly on the table top. The main examples of this are obviously much oversized hands, heads and weapons while the torsos and limbs look very short and 'stocky' in comaprison to more 'realistic' figures (giving allot of human figures what I consider to be a very 'dwarf like' body structure). This is a stylistic choice I am prepared to overlook, to a certain extent.
Some of GWs more recent CAD sculpts have started to edge closer to slightly (but obviously not completely) more evenly proportioned models, which has in no small part drawn me back to the hobby. For example compare the standard cadian/catachan guardsman (quite old models now) to the new genestealer cults figures for a comparison in the change in proportions (an improvement IMO).
There were two things I however was not able to overlook in terms of 'scale issues', those being space marines and vehicles in general. The space marine scale issue has more or less been resolved for me by the inclusion of primaris marines; models (and rules) that represent the fluff of an adeptus astartes much more closely than the old ones IMO. Leaving the thorny issue of primaris marines aside however, most vehicles In the 40k range I find at first glance interesting to look at but at any deeper level infuriating (especialy imperial transport vehicles) on almost every level. Here are my main gripes I can outline:

1. Almost all transport vehicles in the 40k range are far too small to transport anywhere close to their advertised capacity. A rhino for example would be very lucky to fit 10 armored tactical marines inside it, even at their normal size and not the primaris scale much closer to how big all marines 'should' be fluff wise. A 'true scale' rhino would probably be similar in size to a land raider.
2. Most vehicles have FAR too many weapons on them. From a game perspective this makes sense as each weapon can only fire once a turn so more guns = more shots. What however would be more 'realistic' would be fewer weapons, but just make the ones you have either shoot faster or hit harder (or both). This eliminates having to maintain and carry multiple ammo types for many different weapons and allow the few weapons you do have to have much more ammo to use. Imperial vehicles for example seem to have a glut of double barrel/twin linked weapons when what would be more practical would be to have one more powerful weapon than two less powerful ones (eg a single las talon on a predator rather than a twin linked las cannon). From a purely styalistic view it can also serve to make the models look far more 'busy' than they need to be. Not every flat surface has to have a weapon affixed to it.
3. Some vehicles just are terrible designs millitarily. This is again more true than most with imperial vehicles, who for allot of them seem to be stuck in WWI-WWII. The humble leman russ for example, while I think it looks cool at a glance, is just terrible in every way (including agian being far too small to house all its crew and ammo) save for its virtues from the fluff of being easy to build/maitain and will run on pretty much anything.

All this agin im sure many will be much more easily able to overlook than I. It is after all just a sci fi game known for being extremely OTT in almost evey aspect and not to be taken too seriously (despite the direction the fluff continues to head towards). There is a shaky line of suspension of disbeleif I find difficult to cross, mostly coming down to the fluff not matching up anywhere close to the models or game rules (mostly for ballance reasons). Having a company of space marines reletavely easily chopped up by scarcely double their number of orks in a battlefeild compressed into the size of a football pitch when compared to the same situation in the fluff hilights my hangups. You can probably see why I prefer to stick to kill team these days.

Anyway after that ramble of my thoughts I am interested to know if there is anybody else that gets as infurated as I by these scale issues or not. Is the fluff the most important thing to you when it comes to the design of miniatures/rules or are you able to divorce these things from eachother entirely?

Vehicle size is practical issue. If rhino was to be true to scale it would be land raider. Imagine army full of rhino's that are size of land raiders...Pretty much fill the table easily. Good bye even more of any pretense of tactics. They were barely playable size in 2nd ed forces but with constant upping of army sizes with same board sizes it becomes ridiculous with current size. Land raider sized and it would become totally bonkers.

And that's marines. Elite army. Imagine armies with cheaper vehicles...Bah.

We need bigger boards already. True scale vehicles and requirement would go up ridiculously. But apart from technical issues of fitting 10' wide board there's even more pressing issue of depth. You can only reach so deep.

You are in the wrong game if you care about scale or realism.

As someone who enjoys scale modelling, when I want realism, I go for scale models. If I want sci-fi/fantasy I go for Warhammer. Maybe consider a game system that uses a rough scale? Bolt Action is 1/56 scale iirc.

tneva82 wrote:
Vehicle size is practical issue. If rhino was to be true to scale it would be land raider. Imagine army full of rhino's that are size of land raiders...Pretty much fill the table easily. Good bye even more of any pretense of tactics. They were barely playable size in 2nd ed forces but with constant upping of army sizes with same board sizes it becomes ridiculous with current size. Land raider sized and it would become totally bonkers.

And that's marines. Elite army. Imagine armies with cheaper vehicles...Bah.

We need bigger boards already. True scale vehicles and requirement would go up ridiculously. But apart from technical issues of fitting 10' wide board there's even more pressing issue of depth. You can only reach so deep.

I know the rhinos for sure would get bigger, probably repulsor sized (would love to see a true scale rhino)

but what of other vehicles. the newer stuff like GSC and ORK stuff seems to be scaled right. most xeno stuff could be hand waved like dark eldar hanging off the sides, necron space magic.

is the IG stuff off?

Some vehicles are off in scale, some are really not so much (many actual AFV's have an...absurdly small amount of room for people, most have height limits for crew).

Ultimately, a lot of that scale wonkiness is intentional however. Some of it artistically, as in the Leman Russ to specifically invoke an anachronistic WW1 feel, some of it for gameplay reasons, others for technological or production reasons. For a lot of this stuff, realism is intentionally thrown out the window.

Everything with regards to scale has been sacrificed (and rightfully so) for the convenience of hobby, packaging, and cost. There's a reason "heroic" scale exists - because it's far easier to paint, and see during gaming and the miniatures are far more robust for handling over decades of handling. Even more accurately scaled historical ranges still have exaggerated heads, hands, and weapons - so that they can be painted and don't snap when you look at them.

Honestly, picture 40K on the tabletop as a comic book. As scale gets smaller the detail gets more bizarre. Ever looked at how comically scaled most 10mm and 15mm minis are? It's simply a necessity of the hobby. If it bugs you that much, there's not much you can do. It's all theatre.

I got bored and used a vernier to measure scale of a Primaris to a storm trooper. Provided the storm trooper is 6 feet a Primaris is 8 feet tall and a little bit. May get bored and measure the repulsor later

40k never had correct scale between units or factions. It's a bit weird if you start to complain about it now?

Some new units and factions are better in this regard but still not perfect. GSC are probably the best in this sense.

On scale in 40k....

Take a trip or several through the warp en-route to the battlefield & see how that affects your scaling.

The scale of models is off, but that's something I don't really have a problem with. It's a sacrifice of realism in the name of game balance, (or ease of play) which is just part of a good game.

The lack of functionality (or perceived effectiveness) in tank design is an entirely different kettle of fish. That's part of 40k's aesthetic, unfortunately. It's not just an artistic choice, it reflects part of the fundamental lore of the setting: the Imperium's monolithic resistance to change, even to its own detriment.

I see it as a function of heroic scale. Relative to height, most Imperial Transports are already huge. Yet they aren't big enough to fit a squad inside. If you scaled them up to the point they would fit, they'd look ridiculous.

The only way to have it all work properly, in my view, would be to ditch heroic scale. And that's not going anywhere.

issue to me is more the miss match between movement distances and weapon ranges, then the mismatch between the models in the game and the terrain they fight over.

consider a tree in a typical wargame, now go and look at someone stood next to a typical tree, ditto buildings, the older Cities of Death ones that are about twice as wide as the front door for example

and don't get me started on the poor heath and safety of the buildings, all those trip hazards on the floor and not a warning sign in sight

The ground scale in 40k (as in almost every miniatures game ever published) is not the same as the miniatures scale. This is why most wargaming scenery buildings have such miniscule footprints. Vehicles suffere from this a little too, since they're a single large model rather than a collection of smaller ones, so having them so much bigger than buildings looks odd, so they get scaled down a little.

In addition, bases make more of a difference than you'd think - each miniature is basically standing on a plinth 6 scale inches high. They also mean the models take up much more space, even in base-to-base contact, than they would standing shoulder-toshoulder (look at the blocks of Death Korps infantry made for the Gorgon transport - ten models in a footprint about 1" x 3" - or the ten seated Elysians who fit in the back of a Valkyrie and still leave room for the door gunners. Space Marines don't cram together that tightly, but simply standing ten Space Marine miniatures together doesn't represent how they would fit in a transport.



Also, there's the practicality of manufacture - if the vehicles were any bigger, there'd be problems manufacturing them. The sprues can't get any bigger, so they'd need more sprues and more parts.

quite, ground scales often differ, this is of course why the whole "true line of sight" stuff is so much marsh gas, you're usually firing round corners when you think about it.

from what I've seen most military vehicles are a lot smaller than you would expect and a lot more cramped inside them so the delta between vehicles and infantry matters less to me.

What really irks is stuff like Team Yankee where an AK47 cannot shoot the length of a Mil-24 helicopter due to the ground scale being so compressed.

the ground scale issue largely comes from historical gaming where that one building is representing a small village, much as the one figure is representing 20 or more, when you move into a skirmish game you really need to get the two to match (models and ground) and make the game work with it

shorter ranges are reasonably easy to do, call it dust, for of war etc limiting the range you can hit something with a weapon that can fire a lot further on a test range, no real issues there, but buildings unless meant to be small shacks really need to be larger, with rules that interact properly with them so you fight in them and around them.

I've been reading Rogue Trader lately out of historical curiosity and I like the way it approaches scales. Basically they say you have to understand these distances are an abstraction for the effective ranges in-game, but if that REALLY bothers you, you can add a third range band (short, long, extreme) up to 10x the normal range where you only ever hit on a 6+. So a bolter would be a 12"/24"/240" gun.

leopard wrote:
issue to me is more the miss match between movement distances and weapon ranges

Not to mention that if you shout at a Guardsman enough he can run as fast as some aircraft!

 Stux wrote:

leopard wrote:
issue to me is more the miss match between movement distances and weapon ranges

Not to mention that if you shout at a Guardsman enough he can run as fast as some aircraft!

sonic the genestealer....

leopard wrote:

 Stux wrote:

leopard wrote:
issue to me is more the miss match between movement distances and weapon ranges

Not to mention that if you shout at a Guardsman enough he can run as fast as some aircraft!

sonic the genestealer....

Yeah...

What is it, about 54" maximum? 14" move with max advance roll, two extra moves from metabolic overdrive and hive commander, then full distance charge.

That's actually faster than the top speed of some aircraft in the game!

 Stux wrote:

leopard wrote:

 Stux wrote:

leopard wrote:
issue to me is more the miss match between movement distances and weapon ranges

Not to mention that if you shout at a Guardsman enough he can run as fast as some aircraft!

sonic the genestealer....

Yeah...

What is it, about 54" maximum? 14" move with max advance roll, two extra moves from metabolic overdrive and hive commander, then full distance charge.

That's actually faster than the top speed of some aircraft in the game!

(you can't charge after using metabolic overdrive)

If there's anything that's oversized in 40k, it's the big fish tales that everyone tells when they want to talk about how OP some thing they've never played against is.

Ah quite right. I think you're straw manning me a little there though - assuming that comment was aimed at me, maybe it wasn't. I don't have a problem with this sort of thing being possible (so long as it's not a balance problem), because ultimately it's a game.

Also, I play Tyranids (as you may guess from my pic). I just haven't used that strat for a while so forgot.

You have to admit though, 42" is still hilarious. Not even that unlikely if you're Kraken and rolling 3 dice for advances!

I think if you want a more true-scale game you want something like Dropzone or Dropfleet - both of which are truescale and have sensible ranges for futuristic weapons.

30-35mm is never going to be true-scale for games ilke 40K where you've got tanks and aircraft and infantry. The scale is just wrong for that kind of game.

Truescale works better when you've got things like 15mm and such, where you can represent infantry and larger vehicles and cover a more representative map size on the game board - even then things like artillery are still going to be firing REALLY short distances for what they should be.




Edit - also note that the Lemon Russ is delibrately designed the way it is. The Imperium is a society that shuns proper scientific research and instead operates much closer to a religious order. The design of the Russ is as it is because its always been as it is and the Imperium will not allow change to the most holy and glorious design to be made. That's why they are stuck in the dark ages of design. It's part of the theme that the society is so broken that on the one hand they can design and build amazing technological wonders; but on the other are refused the chance to change, evolve and advance those designs. The Russ will remain as it is until the Imperium falls.

Not really worried about scale, size can be an issue, though. As the size of bases and vehicles goes up, the table space goes down. Obviously this is not helped by the general points reduction for models, which means more of them on the table. Used to play 500pts, then 1,000pts, but it looks as if It will have to go down to 500pts again to leave room for maneouver.

Moriarty wrote:
Not really worried about scale, size can be an issue, though. As the size of bases and vehicles goes up, the table space goes down. Obviously this is not helped by the general points reduction for models, which means more of them on the table. Used to play 500pts, then 1,000pts, but it looks as if It will have to go down to 500pts again to leave room for maneouver.

This is true. I'm always drawn to 2k because it's seen as the standard, and it allows you to bring basically everything you might want to.

But in practice 1k games are really fun. Faster flow, less emphasis on super heavies etc. Pluss it forces you to make some much more meaningful list building decisions.

Have been playing 750 point games here and actually a fair few of the 'scale' issues really go away, the game is mostly infantry skirmishing in small groups, with typically one heavier unit in support.

feels remarkably like 1st edition actually

Think about shooting scale. A marine could throw further than the range of a bolter

Fluff being thrown out the window for balance is one that that's really gotten under my skin in this edition. Granted, I understand that a lot of people who play in tournaments probably think otherwise, but it bothers me.

I honestly and truthfully believe that, while most of the Space Marine chapters would not hesitate to help another if the need was there, they would stay very divided into their chapters. While I think they would fight shoulder to shoulder/back to back, I think the pride in their chapters would keep them from mixing in any other way. So, the rule that says that more than one Space Marine chapter cannot appear in the same detachment as another makes sense to me.

That said, they've done that with Ynnari as well. Only one of the Aeldari can be in a single Ynnari detachment. BUT...the fluff had an entire book dedicated to the Ynnari being a singular army made up of all of the Eldar clans (Craftworlds, Harlequins, Drukhari, and Corsairs) standing for a common purpose. You should be able to put any of the Aeldari clans together, side by side, with any other in the same detachment.

The same happens with chaos. There should be no separation between Space Marines who align themselves with a single god and the daemons the god has created. They should be able to be sent to battle right beside each other as they both serve the same god. Plague Marines and Plaguebearers should be able to be troops in the same detachment. Same with Khorne Berzerkers and Bloodletters should be able to be in the same detachment.

I don't think any of the Xenos races would be seen fighting with each other, so it makes sense that they would be separate.

But, it does bother me that they made changes to the rules for balance that blatantly went against the fluff (mainly Ynnari and Chaos) as they aren't just portrayed that way in books (like 100 Space Marines vs. 200 Orks) but were specifically designed to be in the same detachments fighting right next to each other.

SG

They've made a conscious decision to gamify things further this edition. 40k was never a simulation game, it's far too abstracted for that, but it's definitely moved further away.

The most obvious sign that it is a conscious decision is the introduction of CP and Strats. Personally I love that dimension to the game (yes, there are bad examples like Vect and Rotate Ion Shields, but I'm talking conceptually).

But I understand there are people who want to simulate things in a way that makes sense in the lore, and I understand seeing these changes as a negative. The game can't be all things to all people though, whatever they do it will be to some people's detriment.

As mentioned earlier, most people don't appreciate the actual scale of real world equivalents. A modern main battle tank is smaller than you realize, as are APC's and IFV's. A BMP is about the same size as a large pickup truck and carries a crew of 3 with 8 passengers. A rhino is 25% larger than an M113 with 2 crew and 11 passengers. Granted, fully armored marines take up a lot of space but there's no reason they can't cram themselves in like sardines. Super soldiers don't care about comfort. GW's scale is approximately 1:43 according to one of the early vehicle designers, which seems about right when compared to more accurate models of that scale. Bolt action uses 1:56 vehicles which may be a bit small in order to allow more interactive game play in the space provided.

The scale of weapons is completely abstracted; heavy artillery on the same table engaging enemy infantry? Fighters dog-fighting overhead? Range values are completely off for a reason; otherwise you'd have a game on a 6x4' table with 1-2 squads apiece and maybe a couple of vehicles where every model is in shooting range of each other...which might actually be fun to try!

I use to hate on the short ranges in 40K. but over time and having played some other games, I do think the game would be better with much shorter ranges on weapons. If you have played warmahordes, an exceptionally long ranged weapon that there might be very very few of is 16 inches. In general long range is about 12 inches. Most guns shoot 10 inches. Pistols are sometimes 4 to 8 inches. Different games, different scales, but it worked better than I think the table top range of many of the guns in 40K.

Yeah, the vehicles actually aren't too small, the Imperial tanks are larger than most tanks currently in use, and things like Repulsors and Land Raiders being larger than any tanks ever built. It is just that because of the heroic scaling the models are 'thicker' than real people would, it creates the impression that they couldn't fit in the transports. Granted, the power armour might cause some problems.