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I have a debate with a French colleague (and it's tiring)

Can we use the "Reclaim a lost empire" several times? (+1 saving throw and Attack)

Example: If I have 3 units of Wraiths, can I do it 3 times at the end of my turn?

QuenthelBaenre wrote:
I have a debate with a French colleague (and it's tiring)

Can we use the "Reclaim a lost empire" several times? (+1 saving throw and Attack)

Example: If I have 3 units of Wraiths, can I do it 3 times at the end of my turn?

To quote BaconCatBug from a previous thread... "No. The end of your turn is the end of the morale phase. There is no instant in time between the end of your morale phase and the start of your opponents movement phase." Some people will argue that there is an extra chunk of time AFTER your Morale Phase ends but BEFORE your turn ends where end of turn effects would happen. The rules don't seem to support this as there is never a mention of such a gap.

It's actually an extremely contentious issue. I would advise consulting your opponent beforehand, or TO if it's organised play.

 Stux wrote:
It's actually an extremely contentious issue. I would advise consulting your opponent beforehand, or TO if it's organised play.

Yeah, this is always the best bet. HIWPI... once only. The intention seems to be that while you can use strategems any number of times BEFORE the game properly starts, you can only use them once at a time during the game. Knowing that you can only use a strategem ONCE at the end of your movement phase, psychic phase, morale phase, etc... it's not unreasonable to think the author's wanted you to also only use a strategem ONCE at the end of your turn.

 Kriswall wrote:

 Stux wrote:
It's actually an extremely contentious issue. I would advise consulting your opponent beforehand, or TO if it's organised play.

Yeah, this is always the best bet. HIWPI... once only. The intention seems to be that while you can use strategems any number of times BEFORE the game properly starts, you can only use them once at a time during the game. Knowing that you can only use a strategem ONCE at the end of your movement phase, psychic phase, morale phase, etc... it's not unreasonable to think the author's wanted you to also only use a strategem ONCE at the end of your turn.

I think you're probably right, it would just really nice if they came out and stated it with certainty.

On the other hand, there are effects that happen after a battle round starts but before a turn starts, it's that kind of thing that makes me unsure!

BCB is wrong. The end of your turn is not the end of the morale phase. I would like to see a citation on that please. If that was true GW would have written at the end of your morale phase, but they didnt. Just like the start of your turn isnt the start of your movement phase. You start your movement phase by moving your models. Check the movement phase rules. Necrons do a lot of things at the start of your turn, like roll for RP or MWBD. Reclaim a lost empire is not during a phase, thus you can play it as many times as you wish, until you run out of CP.

 p5freak wrote:
BCB is wrong. The end of your turn is not the end of the morale phase. I would like to see a citation on that please.

I am not wrong. Please read the very first page of the Core Rules.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
BCB is wrong. The end of your turn is not the end of the morale phase. I would like to see a citation on that please.

I am not wrong. Please read the very first page of the Core Rules.

Well I say you're both wrong to assert either reading with such authority. It simply isn't defined. It is null.

 p5freak wrote:
BCB is wrong. The end of your turn is not the end of the morale phase. I would like to see a citation on that please. If that was true GW would have written at the end of your morale phase, but they didnt. Just like the start of your turn isnt the start of your movement phase. You start your movement phase by moving your models. Check the movement phase rules. Necrons do a lot of things at the start of your turn, like roll for RP or MWBD. Reclaim a lost empire is not during a phase, thus you can play it as many times as you wish, until you run out of CP.

The obvious response is to ask you to provide a citation defining the end of your turn as NOT being the end of the morale phase. It's not in the rules anywhere. The simplest reading is that when your morale phase ends, your turn ends... so the end of the morale phase is also the end of your turn.

It would be nice if GW had a timing flowchart like many other games do. It doesn't so nobody (you or BCB) can speak with such absolutes. We take the simplest explanation and filter it through the context of the rest of the rules. For me, that means the end of your turn happens at the end of your morale phase AND the authors clearly don't want you using the same strategem over and over unless it's one of the strategems used before the game ends. Arguing that there is a narrow window AFTER your morale phase ends but before your turns fully ends feels like a semantic end run around what seems to me like pretty clear authorial intent.

BRB pg. 215 says

The same stratagems cannot be used by the same player more than once during any single phase . This does not affect stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used before the battle begins or at the end of a battle round.

There is your quote that there is an end of a battle round, and it's not the end of the morale phase, otherwise GW would have written end of morale phase, instead of end of a battle round. And such as means it's two examples, and there is more. Unfortunately GW didn't specify it any further.
Now I would like to see a citation where it says that the end of your turn is the end of the morale phase.

 Kriswall wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
BCB is wrong. The end of your turn is not the end of the morale phase. I would like to see a citation on that please. If that was true GW would have written at the end of your morale phase, but they didnt. Just like the start of your turn isnt the start of your movement phase. You start your movement phase by moving your models. Check the movement phase rules. Necrons do a lot of things at the start of your turn, like roll for RP or MWBD. Reclaim a lost empire is not during a phase, thus you can play it as many times as you wish, until you run out of CP.

The obvious response is to ask you to provide a citation defining the end of your turn as NOT being the end of the morale phase. It's not in the rules anywhere. The simplest reading is that when your morale phase ends, your turn ends... so the end of the morale phase is also the end of your turn.

As you say, it's not in the rules anywhere, however....

The same document BCB cites, using his standards, we would have to treat the start of the turn and the start of the movement phase the same. GW has put out FAQs, however, where they have effects that go off at the beginning of the turn happening before the beginning of the movement phase. If you wished to look at that as a precedent, then the end of the turn would not be the end of the movement phase any more than the start of the turn is the start of the movement phase.

Of course, we've had multipage threads on the end of the turn vs the end of the morale phase here before. I doubt anyone has changed their opinions since the last time it came up. It's best to say that it's not a settled case one way or the other.

Yeah let’s not go over that well-trodden ground. Just link to a relevant previous thread and leave well alone.

New "evidence" has come up since old threads. GW changed the AM stratagem jury rigging :

Page 134 – Jury Rigging
Add the following sentence to this Stratagem:
‘You can only use this Stratagem once per turn.’

This means it was possible to play it multiple times before (its played at the start of your turn), otherwise there would be no need to add that sentence. Start of your turn is outside of a phase.

Q: If I set up a unit on the battlefield as reinforcements at the
end of my Movement phase, can I then use any Stratagems that
are used ‘during your Movement phase’?
A: No, unless the Stratagem specifically says otherwise.

Another FAQ entry that shows that the end of a phase is not during a phase, otherwise you would be able to play that stratagem.

 p5freak wrote:
New "evidence" has come up since old threads. GW changed the AM stratagem jury rigging :

Page 134 – Jury Rigging
Add the following sentence to this Stratagem:
‘You can only use this Stratagem once per turn.’

This means it was possible to play it multiple times before (its played at the start of your turn), otherwise there would be no need to add that sentence. Start of your turn is outside of a phase.

We can't make that inference. They could easily just be adding that sentence for clarity, given its GW.

The line was added to stop a Baneblade in Narrative Play gaining 15 wounds in one turn. Prove me wrong.

The line was added because Robin Cruddace lost a game of tiddlywinks. Prove me wrong

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The line was added to stop a Baneblade in Narrative Play gaining 15 wounds in one turn. Prove me wrong.

The same can be said about matched play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stux wrote:

We can't make that inference. They could easily just be adding that sentence for clarity, given its GW.

If its for clarification, why didnt they add that sentence to every stratagem that says at the start of your turn ?

 p5freak wrote:
The same can be said about matched play.

Except it was never true in matched play.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
The same can be said about matched play.

Except it was never true in matched play.

That is your point of view, which i dont share.

 p5freak wrote:

 Stux wrote:

We can't make that inference. They could easily just be adding that sentence for clarity, given its GW.

If its for clarification, why didnt they add that sentence to every stratagem that says at the start of your turn ?

Because they are often inconsistent.

 Stux wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 Stux wrote:

We can't make that inference. They could easily just be adding that sentence for clarity, given its GW.

If its for clarification, why didnt they add that sentence to every stratagem that says at the start of your turn ?

Because they are often inconsistent.

Of course

 Kriswall wrote:

QuenthelBaenre wrote:
I have a debate with a French colleague (and it's tiring)

Can we use the "Reclaim a lost empire" several times? (+1 saving throw and Attack)

Example: If I have 3 units of Wraiths, can I do it 3 times at the end of my turn?

To quote BaconCatBug from a previous thread... "No. The end of your turn is the end of the morale phase. There is no instant in time between the end of your morale phase and the start of your opponents movement phase." Some people will argue that there is an extra chunk of time AFTER your Morale Phase ends but BEFORE your turn ends where end of turn effects would happen. The rules don't seem to support this as there is never a mention of such a gap.

Except that such a gap is explicitly mentioned on pg 215 of the rules. Unless you can cite where in the turn sequence "at the end of a battle round is", which is not listed on pg 176 that BCB cites. There is a rather long thread on this already. Best to check with your TO.

No such gap is mentioned on that page of the rules.

There are two standpoints on this.
Neither ‘side’ ever changes their mind.

Let’s not do this one yet again???

 BaconCatBug wrote:
No such gap is mentioned on that page of the rules.

What ? Your BRB must be different from all others.

BRB pg. 215 says :

The same stratagems cannot be used by the same player more than once during any single phase . This does not affect stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used before the battle begins or at the end of a battle round.

You wouldnt be able to play a stratagem at the end of a battle round, at the end of your turn, or start of your turn, if that gap didnt exist in the game. Necron players wouldnt be able to roll for RP or use MWBD at the the start of their turn, if that gap didnt exist. And btw, you start your movement phase by moving your models, check the movement phase rules. Anything happening before that is at the start of your turn.

The End of the Battle Round is not the same as the Beginning of the Turn.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The End of the Battle Round is not the same as the Beginning of the Turn.

Certainly the rules say 'something' is not in a phase between turns

torblind wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The End of the Battle Round is not the same as the Beginning of the Turn.

Certainly the rules say 'something' is not in a phase between turns

Agreed. Though this leaves open the question of whether there is any such time between the first player's turn and the second player's turn within the same Battle Round.

absolutely

Thank you all for your responses.

I have the same view than BCB for this.
And i see the ETC say the same about "start/end of turn" stratagems.