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Hello again people, so im confused as usual. I just want to know how would you generally go about doing the black of a rhino like the one in this picture here from GW if you did not own air sprayer. Like with my tanks i have already finished, i primed black, then painted abadon black all over so i can fix mistakes. But im thinking it would have been better to just also use a spray can for the black base paint so i would get a nicer finish rather then hand painting it. I know painting over a sprayed area wouldn't look the same, but i would assume any mistakes i would paint over would be minimal and hardly be noticeable. Like when i look at other peoples black rhinos that are similar to mine as in the edges were highlighted with a brush and not air spray, i wonder if they also used a spray can for there black instead of ruining all the surface with brush strokes.

I know people have said in the past, why would you paint over black with another black, well because the primer is too dark and i want to have a dark black look, not a dark grey or some thing.

I dont know how to explain this, so i think it would be easier for me to understand if i show this picture, and every one just explains how they would go about doing the black.

I just want to know for the future when i do more tanks.

Thank you all so much, appreciate it.

Edit - Like for e.g Was this tank do you think sprayed with black primer, then sprayed with black base?


2nd EDIT - People have said in to past regarding me painting with no air spray, the reason you paint base with brush is because if you make mistakes and fix it with brush it wont match. But then what about the people who use air sprayers for basing.

The tank in the foreground had it's camo applied by airbrush and then I tidied it up.with a hairy brush. It was primed in spray chaos black and again black.touched up with a brush from a standard abandon black pot. The tank in the background was painted only with a.hairy brush. I'm not sure you'd be able to tell the difference unless.you looked really.closely. if you click on the image it is zoomable and there are several more in that gallery if you want to look closer.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would.spray the tank black and then do the weathering. Any touch ups you need to do could.easily be worked into the weathering if you felt that the finish was substantially different.

Almost all my armies are some black or another and I start off with Black primer so I could be a bit more experienced in this matter than most.

You should never have the model completely light sucking black because you cannot show any shadow on the part: you cannot go darker.

Use a black primer like normal, I would suggest doing at least two thin coats of the primer waiting for it to dry so that it is covered well without filling in detail.

Ideally, you should spray or coat all the surfaces with a "Payne's Grey" (suggest a 3:1 of Abaddon Black and Thunderhawk blue) which is black with a bit of blue in it, do not try to get into the crevices all that much.
This is good for a cool futuristic / metallic look, black with a bit of brown in it will give an aged look. This is the base-coat. Try to make this as neat as you can.

If possible performing a "Zenithal highlight" spraying or a wash over the top surfaces (That an overhead light would cause those surfaces to "shine") with a slightly lighter black/grey.
A good guide here:
http://fromthewarp.blogspot.com/2011/09/how-to-do-basic-zenithal-highlighting.html
and this:



You can then edge-highlight with "Thunderhawk Blue" or a 2:1 of black and blue.

Then hit all the recesses with Nuln Oil. NOTE: some people would clear coat first so the wash flows well and allows easy cleanup if too blobby.

So you should "see" almost 5 versions of black/grey (that was not TOO much work i hope!) that will give sufficient greyscale that details can be seen easily and avoid any appearance of looking grey.

 Flinty wrote:
The tank in the foreground had it's camo applied by airbrush and then I tidied it up.with a hairy brush. It was primed in spray chaos black and again black.touched up with a brush from a standard abandon black pot. The tank in the background was painted only with a.hairy brush. I'm not sure you'd be able to tell the difference unless.you looked really.closely. if you click on the image it is zoomable and there are several more in that gallery if you want to look closer.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would.spray the tank black and then do the weathering. Any touch ups you need to do could.easily be worked into the weathering if you felt that the finish was substantially different.

Lol why do you call it a hairy brush?. When you say you primed black then black again, do you mean you primed it twice black? or you primed black then sprayed base black?

Hairy brush as opposed to an airbrush.

I meant that I sprayed it black with a rattle can and then touched the black up by hand around the edges of the camo pattern.

Talizvars method will give a much better overall effect for a solid black model, but it seems like a lot of work

 Talizvar wrote:
Almost all my armies are some black or another and I start off with Black primer so I could be a bit more experienced in this matter than most.

You should never have the model completely light sucking black because you cannot show any shadow on the part: you cannot go darker.

Use a black primer like normal, I would suggest doing at least two thin coats of the primer waiting for it to dry so that it is covered well without filling in detail.

Ideally, you should spray or coat all the surfaces with a "Payne's Grey" (suggest a 3:1 of Abaddon Black and Thunderhawk blue) which is black with a bit of blue in it, do not try to get into the crevices all that much.
This is good for a cool futuristic / metallic look, black with a bit of brown in it will give an aged look. This is the base-coat. Try to make this as neat as you can.

If possible performing a "Zenithal highlight" spraying or a wash over the top surfaces (That an overhead light would cause those surfaces to "shine") with a slightly lighter black/grey.

You can then edge-highlight with "Thunderhawk Blue" or a 2:1 of black and blue.

Then hit all the recesses with Nuln Oil. NOTE: some people would clear coat first so the wash flows well and allows easy cleanup if too blobby.

So you should "see" almost 5 versions of black/grey (that was not TOO much work i hope!) that will give sufficient greyscale that details can be seen easily and avoid any appearance of looking grey.

Well thats what i did sort of with the first part of what you're saying, i painted over the primed chaos black with abadon black which is lighter, but didn't add blue which i guess would make it more lighter, but i didn't stop at the crevices which i probably should have. Does clear coat mean varnish?.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Flinty wrote:
Hairy brush as opposed to an airbrush.

I meant that I sprayed it black with a rattle can and then touched the black up by hand around the edges of the camo pattern.

Talizvars method will give a much better overall effect for a solid black model, but it seems like a lot of work

Oh i see. Why do you touch up the chaos black with abbadon, wouldn't it be better for you to use some thing closer to chaos black?

If I'm understanding you correctly, I think you're trying to go for a cool black as opposed to a warm black.

I'd try a 3:1 mix of chaos black:incubi darkness.

EDIT. Ok I definitely did not understand you correctly.

I paint all my tanks with a brush. The trick to not getting the brush strokes is to follow the golden rule of "thinning your paints" and "multiple thin coat is better than 1 thick coat".

When sufficiently thinned down, it shouldn't leave any brush strokes.

 Talizvar wrote:
Almost all my armies are some black or another and I start off with Black primer so I could be a bit more experienced in this matter than most.

You should never have the model completely light sucking black because you cannot show any shadow on the part: you cannot go darker.

Use a black primer like normal, I would suggest doing at least two thin coats of the primer waiting for it to dry so that it is covered well without filling in detail.

Ideally, you should spray or coat all the surfaces with a "Payne's Grey" (suggest a 3:1 of Abaddon Black and Thunderhawk blue) which is black with a bit of blue in it, do not try to get into the crevices all that much.
This is good for a cool futuristic / metallic look, black with a bit of brown in it will give an aged look. This is the base-coat. Try to make this as neat as you can.

If possible performing a "Zenithal highlight" spraying or a wash over the top surfaces (That an overhead light would cause those surfaces to "shine") with a slightly lighter black/grey.
A good guide here:
http://fromthewarp.blogspot.com/2011/09/how-to-do-basic-zenithal-highlighting.html
and this:



You can then edge-highlight with "Thunderhawk Blue" or a 2:1 of black and blue.

Then hit all the recesses with Nuln Oil. NOTE: some people would clear coat first so the wash flows well and allows easy cleanup if too blobby.

So you should "see" almost 5 versions of black/grey (that was not TOO much work i hope!) that will give sufficient greyscale that details can be seen easily and avoid any appearance of looking grey.

So when you do the base, my question is if i dont have a air spray, wouldn't it be better to can spray base instead of hand painting it?

 Stormatious wrote:
Does clear coat mean varnish?.

Yes: varnish or also known as "gloss coat".
It is hard and creates a smooth surface ideal for the shade to flow on.
I tend to keep Q-tips or small sponge makeup applicators to clean up any blobby areas.
I would usually finish with a "Satin Coat" since my models tend to be ones I play with, not just for show.
It also gets rid of the shine that makes it hard to see your paint job.
Just be really careful to shake well and have good weather conditions before you use a clear coat: they could go foggy on you in high humidity environments.
A thin layer is important, I would not want to overdo any clear coatings.

 skchsan wrote:
If I'm understanding you correctly, I think you're trying to go for a cool black as opposed to a warm black.

I'd try a 3:1 mix of chaos black:incubi darkness.

Im trying to figure out if i dont own a airspray, would it make sence for me to use a spray can for the base as well as using spray can primer.

 Stormatious wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
If I'm understanding you correctly, I think you're trying to go for a cool black as opposed to a warm black.

I'd try a 3:1 mix of chaos black:incubi darkness.

Im trying to figure out if i dont own a airspray, would it make sence for me to use a spray can for the base as well as using spray can primer.

I recently had a "fight" with a local GW store guy I asked for a can of spray paint, which he rebutted (with a bit of attitude) GW doesn't make primers anymore. We don't have any primers. (which I already knew)

The sprays that GW sells now behaves like a primer, but it is in fact, just a spray. So as far as using a spray for the base coat, you're actually base coating the model and not actually primer-ing the model!

 Stormatious wrote:
So when you do the base, my question is if i dont have a air spray, wouldn't it be better to can spray base instead of hand painting it?

To get an even paint job for the base-coat I water my paint down a bit (consistency of cream in my case: flows easily but is self-levelling) and apply with a wide flat-tip brush if you want to minimize the look of brush strokes.
That was what I did for aircraft and stuff when hariy brush was all I had.
You may have to do a couple coats BUT if the black prime covered well you "should" get away with one coat.
I think it depends on how much a difference in shade the primer is vs the shade paint, you are trying to avoid seeing streaks which a too thin paint may do (which will need more coats).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skchsan wrote:
The sprays that GW sells now behaves like a primer, but it is in fact, just a spray. So as far as using a spray for the base coat, you're actually base coating the model and not actually primer-ing the model!

Yes, this becomes REALLY critical that the base model is cleaned of all oils carefully (and any mold release) which you should do anyway just in case.
BUT the good "proper" solvent based primers pretty much make sure you have a good base for your paint to stick to.
You only have to tear a sheet of paint off your model once and vow "never again!".
I seem to remember much anger with that event way back when....

 skchsan wrote:

 Stormatious wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
If I'm understanding you correctly, I think you're trying to go for a cool black as opposed to a warm black.

I'd try a 3:1 mix of chaos black:incubi darkness.

Im trying to figure out if i dont own a airspray, would it make sence for me to use a spray can for the base as well as using spray can primer.

I recently had a "fight" with a local GW store guy I asked for a can of spray paint, which he rebutted (with a bit of attitude) GW doesn't make primers anymore. We don't have any primers. (which I already knew)

The sprays that GW sells now behaves like a primer, but it is in fact, just a spray. So as far as using a spray for the base coat, you're actually base coating the model and not actually primer-ing the model!

Well my GW store gave me chaos black spray when i asked for primer, they didn't say any thing about it not being a primer. I'm not sure whats going on with you're shop lol. Thanks


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talizvar wrote:

 Stormatious wrote:
So when you do the base, my question is if i dont have a air spray, wouldn't it be better to can spray base instead of hand painting it?

To get an even paint job for the base-coat I water my paint down a bit (consistency of cream in my case: flows easily but is self-levelling) and apply with a wide flat-tip brush if you want to minimize the look of brush strokes.
That was what I did for aircraft and stuff when hariy brush was all I had.
You may have to do a couple coats BUT if the black prime covered well you "should" get away with one coat.
I think it depends on how much a difference in shade the primer is vs the shade paint, you are trying to avoid seeing streaks which a too thin paint may do (which will need more coats).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skchsan wrote:
The sprays that GW sells now behaves like a primer, but it is in fact, just a spray. So as far as using a spray for the base coat, you're actually base coating the model and not actually primer-ing the model!

Yes, this becomes REALLY critical that the base model is cleaned of all oils carefully (and any mold release) which you should do anyway just in case.
BUT the good "proper" solvent based primers pretty much make sure you have a good base for your paint to stick to.
You only have to tear a sheet of paint off your model once and vow "never again!".
I seem to remember much anger with that event way back when....

Well why dont you use a base spray can instead of hand painting it?. If you say because when you fix mistakes with brush it doesn't match the spray, well this would be pretty minimal so not a problem right?

 Stormatious wrote:
Well why dont you use a base spray can instead of hand painting it?. If you say because when you fix mistakes with brush it doesn't match the spray, well this would be pretty minimal so not a problem right?

I always used a spray-on base primer from a "rattle-can".
I had in the past a metal model that was coated in mold release and I had not cleaned it off well so the paint came off way back when.
After you shade a model, trying to do a painting partch job is not as good... stripping the model was preferred.

I looked at the GW paint on their site and it says all the usual flammable warnings and says "The purpose of the undercoat is twofold: it acts as a primer and it provides a flat base colour to paint onto." so I think it is a primer as stated.
I had not used their primer in a while so was curious if it got reformulated or discontinued.

You are correct that the combination primer and base-paint is a good way to go, it just is that black is tricky to find the right shade of "grey" you like and the model still looking black.
I find having white on the model (Like my Black Templars shoulder pads) provide enough contrast that it tricks the eye in seeing a fairly light shade grey as black.

 Talizvar wrote:

 Stormatious wrote:
Well why dont you use a base spray can instead of hand painting it?. If you say because when you fix mistakes with brush it doesn't match the spray, well this would be pretty minimal so not a problem right?

I always used a spray-on base primer from a "rattle-can".
I had in the past a metal model that was coated in mold release and I had not cleaned it off well so the paint came off way back when.
After you shade a model, trying to do a painting partch job is not as good... stripping the model was preferred.

I looked at the GW paint on their site and it says all the usual flammable warnings and says "The purpose of the undercoat is twofold: it acts as a primer and it provides a flat base colour to paint onto." so I think it is a primer as stated.
I had not used their primer in a while so was curious if it got reformulated or discontinued.

You are correct that the combination primer and base-paint is a good way to go, it just is that black is tricky to find the right shade of "grey" you like and the model still looking black.
I find having white on the model (Like my Black Templars shoulder pads) provide enough contrast that it tricks the eye in seeing a fairly light shade grey as black.

Oh cool thanks man. So when you say im correct, you mean im correct to use chaos black primer then the lighter abadon base black over that if i wanted a dark look like that tank in the picture i posted. So you're spray base primer does priming and base all at once? and then you move on to highlights?

Edit - Do you mean im correct to use can spray base over the can sprayed prime also?

 Stormatious wrote:
Oh cool thanks man. So when you say im correct, you mean im correct to use chaos black primer then the lighter abadon base black over that if i wanted a dark look like that tank in the picture i posted. So you're spray base primer does priming and base all at once? and then you move on to highlights?
Edit - Do you mean im correct to use can spray base over the can sprayed prime also?

Yeah, looking real close that tank is a "proper" Payne's Grey, the black with the blue in it.
Abaddon Black is very much a "pure" grey (black/white mix) so may not get the effect you want but I would strongly suggest using Abaddon as a base.
Notice this picture of "chaos black" primer (my comment on 'light sucking black") with "Abaddon Black" paint dry brushed on:

Hope this helps a bit.

Yes thanks so much for your help.