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I've been reading about and talking to people about the unit datasheets and powers leaked in Shadowspear, and people seem to be saying that the Chaos side is weak and or heavily nerfed while the Loyal side is very strong, which I find odd, because I came to the opposite conclusion. We haven't seen the points, but are just estimating based off the PL using the 20pts == 1PL generalization. I'm curious as to what informs these assertions?
Starting with the loyal half; I don't think I'm nearly impressed by the Infiltrators as other people seem to be. With a PL of 5, I'm expecting a near-100 point cost for the troop, Considering that Scouts are half as much for the same deployment, I fail to see why I would take these new guys over 2 units of scouts. Scouts would fill my battalion better and have more guns, while these guys are slightly more resilient from armor [but the same number of overall wounds as 2 scout squads]. Or even just take these guys period over a single unit of scouts, since scouts fill the battalion way better, and I don't generally try to fill lists with Marine troops anyway.
Then there's the Suppressors, which have been the talk of the town with their AP-2 Autocannons. They're also looking at being on the order of 100 points, which isn't super encouraging for 3 autocannons. I'm also not entirely certain why I would want my heavy weapons bearers to fly with jump packs, since they don't have a rule to ignore the move-fire penalty and they have the range to hit almost whatever they want. Falling back and shooting as UM effectively gets the same result as the jump packs. It seems unnecessary for the unit to do it's job, and therefore and added expense on the unit. Also, with the Autocannons and the suppression rule, this unit seems confused. The Autocannons are light AT, good for knocking out things light vehicles, while the suppression rule only works on infantry. Like, heavy bolters or assault cannons would be preferable to the Autocannons when leveraging the suppression quality, though the suppressive effect is rather weak and can be ignored to use them as light vehicle harassers.
The only unit I really like in the set are the Eliminators. I expect them to be cheap, since they're PL3. Unlike most snipers, they might actually kill a character [though it will take them more than one turn]. They don't seem amazing [especially when Vindicares are 85 points], but they do seem at least not terrible. They're cheap and inconvenient to the enemy, and reasonably difficult to shift for their cost.
The Librarian's tree is basically for buffing the Eliminators, and otherwise largely useless, and I'm not sure if I'd want to spend a bunch of points to buff my snipers who I only really like for their cheapness. Like, the librarian and tree are both disappointing.
The Captain wastes most of his statblock and fancy deployment regime by only having a pointy stick to hit people with, same for the lieutenant. Also, why not just take a Jetpack Captain or Lieutenant, then the buff would be that much more mobile?
On the flip side, Chaos looks like it got some nice things.
The Venomcrawler looks fairly decent. It's got a more reliable battlecannon, that it can fire on the move. While I don't normally sing praises of the Battle Cannon, it's a start, and the fact that it can fire on the move [or at least save CP] is a step up over the likely-close-in-cost Defiler. It's more fragile than the Defiler, though. It's also fairly decent in melee, by all appearances. While I don't generally appreciate heavy melee in general, much less on gun tanks, he can be a pretty serious and inexpensive forward-moving threat. He also has pretty good availability of buff support.
The Obliterators look like they got a buff too, at least. While the increase in shots, toughness and wounds seems to have been countered by a greater increase in cost, the buff efficiency goes up rather drastically from the 50% increase in capabilities. Endless Cacophony and Delightful Agonies will go much farther on them now, since it's effectively like buffing a squad-and-a-half of current Obliterators. In addition, they also got more spell support, that can save CP or make the CP you are spending go farther. Multiple squads of unbuffed obliterators are probably out, but one full squad fully supported seems like it'll be better than two old ones. In addition, as an additional use case, they can be run as a single model now, to just have one Obliterator on the board. He's be cheap enough not care about his ensuing death, and tough enough that he'll take at least some antitank guns to knock out, drawing fire from other valuable targets.
Chaos Space Marines are CSM, there's not a whole lot exciting about them.
The greater possessed have a interesting, but limited buff. It seems mostly intended to make the Venomcrawler's guns Lascannons instead of a Battle Cannon. They don't seem great, though.
Then there's the Master of Possession. People have been saying bad things about him, but if the poster in the thread on psychic powers is right, it looks like his discipline is pretty decent. Supposedly, he's got spells that will buff Daemon Engine invul saves, as well as a Daemonforge-lite spell, which will either save CP or let you have another dinosaur operational effectively [or use it on Obliterators]. The idea of a 4++ Defiler [or the Venomcrawler] sounds at least somewhat concerning. He can also supposedly help out obliterators on re-rolling their output dice. He's slow, but doesn't seem bad if he has dinosaurs to buff. At the very least, he seems better than the Vanguard Libby, since the Libby basically only usefully buffs Eliminators, while this guy buffs dinosaurs, and there are more Daemon Engines available to buff, and they're more valuable and capable units than the Eliminators.
Anyway, though are my thoughts as of now, I'm curious as to what other people think, and why it seems that most people I talk too have the opposite opinion.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/03/07 04:31:15
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
I get the impression from this that GW's going to keep taking all the screwups out of the Stormcast and porting them straight over into the Space Marines. Sub-Codexes that don't interact with each other, releasing new slightly different-looking units rather than patching existing units, "options" that are entirely cosmetic and have little to no impact on what you do with the unit...
The Librarian's tree is basically for buffing the Eliminators, and otherwise largely useless
Wha...?
Obscuration is by no means the best discipline in the game, but Hallucination, Tenebrous Curse and Mind Raid are far from what I'd call "useless" powers.
Anyway...
As someone who plays both SM (Salamanders) and CSM (World Eaters), and who's gonna get a Shadowspear box to beef up both my armies, I'm in the "SM got the better deal"-camp.
- Captain and Lieutenant are both pretty meh, as they both forgot to bring decent weaponry to the table.
- I love the Librarian(modelwise), and I think Obscuration is a far more interesting discipline than Librarius.
- I disagree with your Scout-analogy on Infiltrators. They can both infiltrate, true, but apart from that they're way to different.
Scouts get more weaponry per points, and 20 scouts have the same number of wounds as 10 infiltrators (I expect 20 scouts to cost noticeable more though), its true, however:
Infiltrators are <primaris> with all that entails. They can essentially shut down deepstriking chargers with their 12" bubble, they have a vastly superior armoursave in cover, have a smokegrenade for that crucial turn, and their weapons are, at first glance, pretty interesting.
Do I think that Infiltrators will change the meta? Absolutely not, but I can easily see myself using them in most lists.
- Suppressors are, at first glance, pretty strange, and not necessarily in a good way.
I think their suppression-rule is a gimmick, as you don't really want to shoot, what's essentially, anti-tank guns at the things you want to suppress (infantry).
Jump-pack on a unit of heavy weapons without a rule that prevents them from getting -1 while moving seems counter-productive, but I guess the option is nice.
With that said, ~100 points for 3 beefed up autocannons doesn't seem too shabby.
What's a barebones Primaris Marine worth? 17 ppm? How much for an improved Autocannon? 15 ppm? How much for a jumppack? 3 ppm? That's 35 ppm.
- Eliminators seem like a great unit.
One could argue that Vindicators are a better (but more fragile) choice, but the tournament-meta isn't the only meta, and plenty of players still refrain from souping.
Regardless, they'll be a nice, cheap Heavy Support-choice for anyone looking to field a Brigade.
As for Chaos:
- Venomcrawler seems decent, but slightly overpriced at ~140 pts.
I wouldn't praise the "battlecannon" for being Assault as it would be pretty bad if it was heavy, given the Venomcrawlers BS 4+.
Still, I can see myself using one in a walker-heavy list. The summoning-aspect is very gimmicky though, and I hope it doesn't pay anything for having this rule.
- Obliterators are crazy overpriced unless you play Slaanesh. They make my Devastator Centurions seem worth their pricetag, which is a feat in itself.
I don't see in what universe an Obliterator with its random weaponry (6 D1 autocannon shots, yay!) is worth more than a decked out Helbrute.
Model's are nice though, so I guess that's something. Personally I expect these to drop massively in price in the next CA, just as Dev Cent's did. (And Dev Cent's are still overpriced.)
- CSM are CSM. Moving on.
- Master of Possession is actually the only thing in the CSM-part of this box that I would rate as "alright".
His discipline is pretty good in the right list, the model looks decent (I'm gonna remove all the flames on my mini though), and he has a pretty interesting anti-psyker aura.
TLDR:
- SM part seems decent with some bad apples (Captain/Lieutenant.)
- CSM part seems overall pretty overpriced for what it does.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/03/07 06:07:28
The Librarian's tree is basically for buffing the Eliminators, and otherwise largely useless
Wha...?
Obscuration is by no means the best discipline in the game, but Hallucination, Tenebrous Curse and Mind Raid are far from what I'd call "useless" powers.
Anyway...
As someone who plays both SM (Salamanders) and CSM (World Eaters), and who's gonna get a Shadowspear box to beef up both my armies, I'm in the "SM got the better deal"-camp.
- Captain and Lieutenant are both pretty meh, as they both forgot to bring decent weaponry to the table.
- I love the Librarian(modelwise), and I think Obscuration is a far more interesting discipline than Librarius.
- I disagree with your Scout-analogy on Infiltrators. They can both infiltrate, true, but apart from that they're way to different.
Scouts get more weaponry per points, and 20 scouts have the same number of wounds as 10 infiltrators (I expect 20 scouts to cost noticeable more though), its true, however:
Infiltrators are <primaris> with all that entails. They can essentially shut down deepstriking chargers with their 12" bubble, they have a vastly superior armoursave in cover, have a smokegrenade for that crucial turn, and their weapons are, at first glance, pretty interesting.
Do I think that Infiltrators will change the meta? Absolutely not, but I can easily see myself using them in most lists.
- Suppressors are, at first glance, pretty strange, and not necessarily in a good way.
I think their suppression-rule is a gimmick, as you don't really want to shoot, what's essentially, anti-tank guns at the things you want to suppress (infantry).
Jump-pack on a unit of heavy weapons without a rule that prevents them from getting -1 while moving seems counter-productive, but I guess the option is nice.
With that said, ~100 points for 3 beefed up autocannons doesn't seem too shabby.
What's a barebones Primaris Marine worth? 17 ppm? How much for an improved Autocannon? 15 ppm? How much for a jumppack? 3 ppm? That's 35 ppm.
- Eliminators seem like a great unit.
One could argue that Vindicators are a better (but more fragile) choice, but the tournament-meta isn't the only meta, and plenty of players still refrain from souping.
Regardless, they'll be a nice, cheap Heavy Support-choice for anyone looking to field a Brigade.
As for Chaos:
- Venomcrawler seems decent, but slightly overpriced at ~140 pts.
I wouldn't praise the "battlecannon" for being Assault as it would be pretty bad if it was heavy, given the Venomcrawlers BS 4+.
Still, I can see myself using one in a walker-heavy list. The summoning-aspect is very gimmicky though, and I hope it doesn't pay anything for having this rule.
- Obliterators are crazy overpriced unless you play Slaanesh. They make my Devastator Centurions seem worth their pricetag, which is a feat in itself.
I don't see in what universe an Obliterator with its random weaponry (6 D1 autocannon shots, yay!) is worth more than a decked out Helbrute.
Model's are nice though, so I guess that's something. Personally I expect these to drop massively in price in the next CA, just as Dev Cent's did. (And Dev Cent's are still overpriced.)
- CSM are CSM. Moving on.
- Master of Possession is actually the only thing in the CSM-part of this box that I would rate as "alright".
His discipline is pretty good in the right list, the model looks decent (I'm gonna remove all the flames on my mini though), and he has a pretty interesting anti-psyker aura.
TLDR:
- SM part seems decent with some bad apples (Captain/Lieutenant.)
- CSM part seems overall pretty overpriced for what it does.
I feel the same way, primaris go it a little bit better but both sides are not great.
I'm buying it for my Salamanders as well, altho I dont have a chaos force yet, might make me some IIIrd legion debauchery.
Since we dont know points for certain, dont know the stratagems these units will get, and dont know if there will be any other gimmicks to them like relics and warlord traits...
Every opinion is just speculation. You'll have every warhammer player and their mums coming out of the woodwork to rate all of these things as soon as the full rules are out. wait for that.
Wha...?
Obscuration is by no means the best discipline in the game, but Hallucination, Tenebrous Curse and Mind Raid are far from what I'd call "useless" powers.
- I love the Librarian(modelwise), and I think Obscuration is a far more interesting discipline than Librarius.
I feel like Space Wolves and Dark Angels both have better versions of Hallucination; in the case of the DA they have 2 better versions. Tempest's Wrath and Aversion don't require a roll off [which, notably, succeeds less than half the time against most units bigger than Guardsmen], and Mind Wipe requires a roll off [with similar odds], but is permanent if it sticks. Technically, you can hit a fourth unit using this power, but at some point, does it matter? ADEPTUS ASTARTES is a valid keyword to make a detachment around, you just lose your CT; bring a jetpack rune priest and a jetpack librarian in a battalion with 3 scout squads, and you've got enough superior -1 powers to go around.
Tenebrous Curse is interesting, but situational.
Mind Raid is also interesting, but I think it might be a trap. 1MW isn't really worthwhile, and then the question is: is a librarian and his power slot more or less valuable than a warlord trait/relic slot? I can't say without considering a lot of factors. I'd say this with a strict maybe, since 180 points of Guard will also bring with them 5 more starting CP's, plus a pile of warm bodies for objective grabbing and interference. Also, I like my Company Commander using her tactical genius to lead the forces of the Space Wolves, Sisters of Battle, or Adeptus Custodes .
- I disagree with your Scout-analogy on Infiltrators. They can both infiltrate, true, but apart from that they're way to different.
Scouts get more weaponry per points, and 20 scouts have the same number of wounds as 10 infiltrators (I expect 20 scouts to cost noticeable more though), its true, however:
Infiltrators are <primaris> with all that entails. They can essentially shut down deepstriking chargers with their 12" bubble, they have a vastly superior armoursave in cover, have a smokegrenade for that crucial turn, and their weapons are, at first glance, pretty interesting.
Do I think that Infiltrators will change the meta? Absolutely not, but I can easily see myself using them in most lists.
Here's the thing, 5 scouts cost 55 points, at 5PL for 5, these guys are looking to cost between 90 and 110. They'll have to be way cheaper than points-PL suggest in order to compete with Scouts. Their bolters aren't even the souped-up bolt rifles, they're basically just botler-bolters [notably, it's not a mortal wound on a 6, just an automatic wound. It's doesn't seem like anything to write home about].
So they've got the same wound count, but have half the firepower of a scout squad for +1 armor. More importantly, they'll drive up the base cost of a battalion, which is already high, even higher.
That's why I'm not sure what people see in these guys.
- Suppressors are, at first glance, pretty strange, and not necessarily in a good way.
I think their suppression-rule is a gimmick, as you don't really want to shoot, what's essentially, anti-tank guns at the things you want to suppress (infantry).
Jump-pack on a unit of heavy weapons without a rule that prevents them from getting -1 while moving seems counter-productive, but I guess the option is nice.
With that said, ~100 points for 3 beefed up autocannons doesn't seem too shabby.
What's a barebones Primaris Marine worth? 17 ppm? How much for an improved Autocannon? 15 ppm? How much for a jumppack? 3 ppm? That's 35 ppm.
They're not really full tank hunters; they're at best an inconvenience to Imperial Knights or Leman Russes. They're pretty good against light vehicles and carriers. However, I could buy a dreadnought with 8 autocannon shots for ~20 points more, and it's a tank [or for an even less flattering comparison, a Hydra FlaK Tank for 93 points]. Is the +1AP and ~-20 points worth 2 shots, 2 wounds and being T4 vs. T7?
- Eliminators seem like a great unit.
One could argue that Vindicators are a better (but more fragile) choice, but the tournament-meta isn't the only meta, and plenty of players still refrain from souping.
Regardless, they'll be a nice, cheap Heavy Support-choice for anyone looking to field a Brigade.
Yeah, at PL3, they should be nice and cheap. And tagging a guy for ~60 points doesn't sound too bad. It's probably not the best 60 points ever spent, but at you're not proverbially throwing good points after bad. That said, investing enough to actually put down characters every round is probably a waste of points, especially since a Vindicare can do that for marginally more, now without costing a detachment.
- Venomcrawler seems decent, but slightly overpriced at ~140 pts.
I wouldn't praise the "battlecannon" for being Assault as it would be pretty bad if it was heavy, given the Venomcrawlers BS 4+.
Still, I can see myself using one in a walker-heavy list. The summoning-aspect is very gimmicky though, and I hope it doesn't pay anything for having this rule.
It's probably better than a Defiler, which has a straight Battle Cannon at the same price range. The summoning aspect is irrelevant, but it is fast, inexpensive, and reasonably dangerous at both range and melee.
It doesn't look like a big winner, but it looks better than the Suppressors and probably better than the Eliminators. It has no confusion about it's role in life, isn't too expensive, and will do it's job.
- Obliterators are crazy overpriced unless you play Slaanesh. They make my Devastator Centurions seem worth their pricetag, which is a feat in itself.
I don't see in what universe an Obliterator with its random weaponry (6 D1 autocannon shots, yay!) is worth more than a decked out Helbrute.
Model's are nice though, so I guess that's something. Personally I expect these to drop massively in price in the next CA, just as Dev Cent's did. (And Dev Cent's are still overpriced.)
I made some nice charts for this:
The ordinate is computed with a formula that isn't particularly complex, but is too annoying to type out without using LaTeX or something. It's basically a series of weighted averages [notably, inside the toughness factor, the formula to considers toughness slightly more important than wounds [since more toughness draws higher quality and lower fire rate firepower, in turn improving defense value] and considers resistance to Bolters and Battle Cannons most important, followed by Lasguns, Autocannons, and Lascannons, followed by Heavy Bolters, Assault Cannons, and arbitrarily large guns].
These charts consider the effects of Endless Cacophony, but not of Prescience, Delightful Agonies or any new supporting powers.
It's not particularly mathematically rigorous, but it gets the point across. I can play with the weighting, and for more arrangements it shows that New Obliterators are more efficient at 1 or 3, at almost all weightings of cost. If you increase the importance of cost, the high end drops to being bad, but 3 Oblitz becomes a very magical number.
As a side note, playing with the weights is a pretty good demonstration of "Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics". If the only weapon that matters is the Hammer of Sundrance it looks like an insane buff, but it looks pretty nerf for all combinations other than 3 oblitz if you decide that shooting power is irrelevant. However, it still gets the point across, and, for almost all weight combinations, 3 Oblitz is a net efficiency buff. [The only way to make it look otherwise is to de-weight everything but wound count]
- Master of Possession is actually the only thing in the CSM-part of this box that I would rate as "alright".
His discipline is pretty good in the right list, the model looks decent (I'm gonna remove all the flames on my mini though), and he has a pretty interesting anti-psyker aura.
TLDR:
- SM part seems decent with some bad apples (Captain/Lieutenant.)
- CSM part seems overall pretty overpriced for what it does.
That's at least what I think about these things, but your opinion is noted and interesting. We'll have to see what the final points come up with, because it could be different if everything turns out to be PL*20-9 points.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2019/03/07 12:23:41
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
I feel like Space Wolves and Dark Angels both have better versions of Hallucination; in the case of the DA they have 2 better versions.
I don't see how this is relevant. I don't play Space Wolves or Dark Angels. I play SM (Salamanders).
Might as well say that Obscuration is bad because Eldar and CSM got better powers.
Mind Raid is also interesting, but I think it might be a trap. 1MW isn't really worthwhile, and then the question is: is a librarian and his power slot more or less valuable than a warlord trait/relic slot? I can't say without considering a lot of factors. I'd say this with a strict maybe, since 180 points of Guard will also bring with them 5 more starting CP's, plus a pile of warm bodies for objective grabbing and interference. Also, I like my Company Commander using her tactical genius to lead the forces of the Space Wolves, Sisters of Battle, or Adeptus Custodes
OK, I should really stop here because it's clear to me now that we play in vastly different metas and have different opinions on how to play this game.
You seem to (forgive me if I'm wrong) play in a WAAC-meta where soup is the norm. If that's the case, then I can see why you consider most of the new Primaris-stuff as "meh", because nothing is close to being overpowered.
I play in a pretty friendly meta where souping is frowned upon and WAAC-players will quickly find themselves running out of willing opponents.
In my meta, Mind Raid is pretty decent power because of the CP-regen. The mortal wound is just a bonus. My Salamanders had no ways to regenerate CP, until now.
Here's the thing, 10 scouts cost 55 points, at 5PL for 5, these guys are looking to cost between 90 and 110. They'll have to be way cheaper than points-PL suggest in order to compete with Scouts. Their bolters aren't even the souped-up bolt rifles, they're basically just botler-bolters [notably, it's not a mortal wound on a 6, just an automatic wound. It's doesn't seem like anything to write home about].
So they've got the same wound count, but have half the firepower of a scout squad for +1 armor. More importantly, they'll drive up the base cost of a battalion, which is already high, even higher.
10 scouts is not 55 points, but I assume that's just a typo.
I'm aware that it's not a mortal wound on 6's, but as a long-time WFB-player, where poisoned attacks (pre AoS) worked like the Infiltrators new bolters, I've seen what a rule like that can do, especially against high T-targets with mediocre save. Is it amazing? No, but it's flavourful and I like it.
I guess we'll have to see what the pts-cost ends up being.
Right now Infiltrators seem like infiltrating Intercessors with a different weapon and some utility in Omniscramblers and Smokegrenade.
Not overpowered, but not even close to being bad.
They're not really full tank hunters; they're at best an inconvenience to Imperial Knights or Leman Russes. They're pretty good against light vehicles and carriers. However, I could buy a dreadnought with 8 autocannon shots for ~20 points more, and it's a tank [or for an even less flattering comparison, a Hydra FlaK Tank for 93 points]. Is the +1AP and ~-20 points worth 2 shots, 2 wounds and being T4 vs. T7?
Yeah they really shouldn't go after T8. Luckily for them there's a massive plethora of T7 vehicles and monsters out there though.
The comparison to a rifle-dread is interesting, and both have their pro's and con's.
The Suppressors can easily get a 2+ save by staying in cover and, unlike the dread, they can quickly move out of harms way if needed due to higher movement and fly.
Neither unit is so good or bad that it makes the other a no-brainer/useless.
Not gonna compare to the Hydra since IG are not SM.
It's probably better than a Defiler, which has a straight Battle Cannon at the same price range. The summoning aspect is irrelevant, but it is fast, inexpensive, and reasonably dangerous at both range and melee.
It doesn't look like a big winner, but it looks better than the Suppressors and probably better than the Eliminators. It has no confusion about it's role in life, isn't too expensive, and will do it's job.
Funny that you say that it has no confusions about it's role when it's a fast walker that wants to shoot and be in combat at the same time.
I'd say that compared to Forgefiends and Maulerfiends, the Venomcrawler is very confused.
We'll see what the pointcost will be soon enough. For 150 pts I'll consider it overpriced. For 130-140 its "OK".
In regards to Oblits, math is one thing, and math never lies.
However, math also will never know when you roll that gakky combination of dice that will make you end up with S7 AP1 D1 in a turn where you need them to take out something big and nasty.
At the end of they day, I (still) consider Oblits too expensive and random.
Anyway, currently I'm really looking forward to play around with the Librarian, Infiltrators and Eliminators (and to some extent, Suppressors) in my Salamanders, but I'm feeling quite indifferent about playing with the Venomcrawler and Obliterators in my World Eaters. Adding a Greater Possessed and a MoP looks like fun though.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/03/07 13:55:38
Gotta be honest for the near parity in points the defiler is better all round, it doesn't just have a battle cannon.
If you compare the 2 guns on the crawler to a battle cannon, reaper autocannon and havoc launcher on a platform of similar speed, toughness and melee capacity, the defiler is better all-rounder. Which isn't saying much tbh!
Defiler for 136 pts with above load out is 2" slower, 2 extra strength, 2 less attacks, 4 more wounds. Ofc you can swap the havoc launcher for the scourge to balance the attacks out and give it a more melee focused approach, then swap the auto cannon for a flamer to make it a fast assault platform. if anything the crawler is more confused than the defiler is, due to lack of options.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/07 13:43:22
For Chaos the Venomcrawler seems meh at worst to okay at best. Sure it has an alright gun but BS 4+. It competes with a Maulerfiend for melee, and while you can buff it the Maulerfiend seems to be a better option compared to it, same with the Defiler. If it's really 140 points I think it'll be garbage at that price point. Now if/when the 2x Baleflamer version comes out (shown in artwork) that I think will be great but the one with the two cannons seems pretty bad. Nothing it does seems to not be outclassed by something else.
Obliterators look good but it depends on their cost; it's looking like 2 will cost the same as 3 used to which seems like a nerf but the buffs might work overall.
MoP and Malefic powers seem good, except the power that helps you summon because lol summoning. Cursed Earth and Infernal Power seem really great though.
CSM are CSM, if they don't get a points decrease they'll still be trash.
Greater Possessed seem really cool.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/03/07 13:59:21
Dudeface wrote: Gotta be honest for the near parity in points the defiler is better all round, it doesn't just have a battle cannon.
If you compare the 2 guns on the crawler to a battle cannon, reaper autocannon and havoc launcher on a platform of similar speed, toughness and melee capacity, the defiler is better all-rounder. Which isn't saying much tbh!
Defiler for 136 pts with above load out is 2" slower, 2 extra strength, 2 less attacks, 4 more wounds. Ofc you can swap the havoc launcher for the scourge to balance the attacks out and give it a more melee focused approach, then swap the auto cannon for a flamer to make it a fast assault platform. if anything the crawler is more confused than the defiler is, due to lack of options.
I can see that.
The defiler can't move and fire well, though, but if you're using it as a static battery it's definitely a preferred option. I figured the mobility might lend the venomcrawler an edge, since it's claws wouldn't be so useless [or the firepower might lend it an edge over the maulerfiend].
I'm just guessing at the points based on the PL. Points estimation could range from like -10 to +9 [or theoretically more, but since they have fixed options, I'd bet that they're pretty close]
I definitely don't think the Oblitz got a nerf. They're more flexible, and virtually however I weight things it winds up with 3 New Obliterators being a better call than 6 Old Obliterators. If you slide up to 130 points per Oblit, it drops to parity. If you slide down to 110 points per Oblit, it looks like a really big buff across the board. There's also the additional use case now of a single obliterator dropping in to draw some fire, since he's destructive enough alone to warrant killing, and tough enough to require an AT gun to do it.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/03/07 14:33:31
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
The infiltrators will work well in my SW army (which doesn't have "scout" troops) as a way to claim more ground.
If DW get access to the new troops the snipers in a heavy slot will give me a really cheap relic tax that at least has a defined role and isn't terrible for its points.
The captain and LT can feth off until they get some more equipment options (the captain with a power fist would be fun).
The librarian has some decent synergies with the other "good" SM powers. Reducing a units movement by half and then hitting it with jaws of the wolf is nice. Reducing a models leadership and then mind wiping it is interesting. I think he has a spot in the three wise men supreme libby detachment (or bat if you want to throw in some scouts).
At 35 points a pop the auto-cannon dudes are better than hellblasters IMHO. 2 shots at full range, no worry about over charging in exchange for a point of strength and a bit of AP (that usually gets wasted as most anything worth shooting has a 4/5++) seems like a win. I think this speaks to how bad hellblasters are vs how great the auto-cannon dudes are (hellblasters only perform w/in 15", suck against invulns and negative to hit mods and so much bad stuff happens w/in 18" of an enemy at least the auto-cannons can stay at long range).
Nothing that's on the GSC level of good new units unless they get some crazy strats, weird detachment rules or surprisingly low point costs.
A Vanguard Captain with the new Targeting Priority Warlord Trait next to a unit of Hblasters gives you a unit that hits on a 2+, and can't Fry themselves without some other mechanic at play.
MinscS2 wrote: TLDR:
- SM part seems decent with some bad apples (Captain/Lieutenant.)
- CSM part seems overall pretty overpriced for what it does.
This is accurate.
Additionally, the Venomcrawler is trash you couldn't pay me to field.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/07 16:41:54
"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."
In regards to Oblits, math is one thing, and math never lies.
However, math also will never know when you roll that gakky combination of dice that will make you end up with S7 AP1 D1 in a turn where you need them to take out something big and nasty.
At the end of they day, I (still) consider Oblits too expensive and random.
DICE TIME!
Modified my program to handle Oblits stat setting dynamic. CP rerolls (when applicable) only occurred when the S roll was a 1. If the reroll was not used for S then it was used for the Damage roll and only if it was a 1.
I think the problem with Obliterators is the psychological of not getting the result you need and you can see that play out in the graph below.
The way you want to interpret this is the less to the left of the graph is better. Higher results on towards the right means more damage.
Against a stock knight 3 NuBlits fail to do damage about 10% of the time, predators about 8%, and 3 NuBlits w/ Cacophony in any config fail about 1% of the time. And while the NuBlits sans cacophony are strictly worse by a small margin the odds for 28+ damage with full load is around 5%.
It's quite clear that Obliterators offer a platform that offers a large economy of scale for buffs. If you were to add prescience and reroll 1s to hit and wound you'd see a pretty severe damage output.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dudeface wrote: Gotta be honest for the near parity in points the defiler is better all round, it doesn't just have a battle cannon.
If you compare the 2 guns on the crawler to a battle cannon, reaper autocannon and havoc launcher on a platform of similar speed, toughness and melee capacity, the defiler is better all-rounder. Which isn't saying much tbh!
Defiler for 136 pts with above load out is 2" slower, 2 extra strength, 2 less attacks, 4 more wounds. Ofc you can swap the havoc launcher for the scourge to balance the attacks out and give it a more melee focused approach, then swap the auto cannon for a flamer to make it a fast assault platform. if anything the crawler is more confused than the defiler is, due to lack of options.
That's the thing with the defiler - it's slower and get penalty to move and shoot. Havoc Launcher is nice, but nothing to write home about.
So, either the Defiler sits still and gets 1.8 hits or it moves and gets 1.2. The VC moves faster and gets 2 hits. Kicking in a greater possessed puts the gun at the S9 sweet spot. It also heals faster than the defiler if it gets to combat.
The real devil will be in the actual points. The defiler still has a spot, but it's more CP hungry than these guys are.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/07 16:45:59
In regards to Oblits, math is one thing, and math never lies.
However, math also will never know when you roll that gakky combination of dice that will make you end up with S7 AP1 D1 in a turn where you need them to take out something big and nasty.
At the end of they day, I (still) consider Oblits too expensive and random.
DICE TIME!
Modified my program to handle Oblits stat setting dynamic. CP rerolls (when applicable) only occurred when the S roll was a 1. If the reroll was not used for S then it was used for the Damage roll and only if it was a 1.
I think the problem with Obliterators is the psychological of not getting the result you need and you can see that play out in the graph below.
The way you want to interpret this is the less to the left of the graph is better. Higher results on towards the right means more damage.
Against a stock knight 3 NuBlits fail to do damage about 10% of the time, predators about 8%, and 3 NuBlits w/ Cacophony in any config fail about 1% of the time. And while the NuBlits sans cacophony are strictly worse by a small margin the odds for 28+ damage with full load is around 5%.
It's quite clear that Obliterators offer a platform that offers a large economy of scale for buffs. If you were to add prescience and reroll 1s to hit and wound you'd see a pretty severe damage output.
While its clear that Oblits can be very heavily buffed, my personal concern is that without them the Oblits just arent very impressive, and those buffs dont necessarily make fluff sense for a lot of armies where Oblits would commonly be expected (e.g. Slaaneshi Obliterators in an Iron Warriors army) and the increased cost is going to make them less viable overall unless one is willing to break that background adherence. If they're looking to be over 100pts each, they're gonna have trouble working in many builds.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
The Librarian's tree is basically for buffing the Eliminators, and otherwise largely useless
Wha...?
Obscuration is by no means the best discipline in the game, but Hallucination, Tenebrous Curse and Mind Raid are far from what I'd call "useless" powers.
Anyway...
As someone who plays both SM (Salamanders) and CSM (World Eaters), and who's gonna get a Shadowspear box to beef up both my armies, I'm in the "SM got the better deal"-camp.
- Captain and Lieutenant are both pretty meh, as they both forgot to bring decent weaponry to the table.
- I love the Librarian(modelwise), and I think Obscuration is a far more interesting discipline than Librarius.
- I disagree with your Scout-analogy on Infiltrators. They can both infiltrate, true, but apart from that they're way to different.
Scouts get more weaponry per points, and 20 scouts have the same number of wounds as 10 infiltrators (I expect 20 scouts to cost noticeable more though), its true, however:
Infiltrators are <primaris> with all that entails. They can essentially shut down deepstriking chargers with their 12" bubble, they have a vastly superior armoursave in cover, have a smokegrenade for that crucial turn, and their weapons are, at first glance, pretty interesting.
Do I think that Infiltrators will change the meta? Absolutely not, but I can easily see myself using them in most lists.
- Suppressors are, at first glance, pretty strange, and not necessarily in a good way.
I think their suppression-rule is a gimmick, as you don't really want to shoot, what's essentially, anti-tank guns at the things you want to suppress (infantry).
Jump-pack on a unit of heavy weapons without a rule that prevents them from getting -1 while moving seems counter-productive, but I guess the option is nice.
With that said, ~100 points for 3 beefed up autocannons doesn't seem too shabby.
What's a barebones Primaris Marine worth? 17 ppm? How much for an improved Autocannon? 15 ppm? How much for a jumppack? 3 ppm? That's 35 ppm.
- Eliminators seem like a great unit.
One could argue that Vindicators are a better (but more fragile) choice, but the tournament-meta isn't the only meta, and plenty of players still refrain from souping.
Regardless, they'll be a nice, cheap Heavy Support-choice for anyone looking to field a Brigade.
As for Chaos:
- Venomcrawler seems decent, but slightly overpriced at ~140 pts.
I wouldn't praise the "battlecannon" for being Assault as it would be pretty bad if it was heavy, given the Venomcrawlers BS 4+.
Still, I can see myself using one in a walker-heavy list. The summoning-aspect is very gimmicky though, and I hope it doesn't pay anything for having this rule.
- Obliterators are crazy overpriced unless you play Slaanesh. They make my Devastator Centurions seem worth their pricetag, which is a feat in itself.
I don't see in what universe an Obliterator with its random weaponry (6 D1 autocannon shots, yay!) is worth more than a decked out Helbrute.
Model's are nice though, so I guess that's something. Personally I expect these to drop massively in price in the next CA, just as Dev Cent's did. (And Dev Cent's are still overpriced.)
- CSM are CSM. Moving on.
- Master of Possession is actually the only thing in the CSM-part of this box that I would rate as "alright".
His discipline is pretty good in the right list, the model looks decent (I'm gonna remove all the flames on my mini though), and he has a pretty interesting anti-psyker aura.
TLDR:
- SM part seems decent with some bad apples (Captain/Lieutenant.)
- CSM part seems overall pretty overpriced for what it does.
You bring up a good point with the 12" Infiltrators have.
That's actually a lot of denial to units that want to appear and then just charge. It's simply something that Scouts can't prevent as well.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
That's actually a lot of denial to units that want to appear and then just charge. It's simply something that Scouts can't prevent as well.
Yeah, the board control and DS denial is something I've been surprised hasn't been mentioned more. My buddy who plays GSC is several shades of pissed off about that, especially coming so soon on the heels of the codex he's been waiting 2 years to get.
GW: 'GSC are amazing!'
GSC Players: 'You really care about us! Thanks!'
Two weeks later:
GSC Players: 'Why do you hate me? I haven't even gotten to play my army yet.'
GW: 'We don't actually want deep strike assault and cult ambush to be viable tactics. Also, everyone hates the Kellermorph.'
"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."
That's actually a lot of denial to units that want to appear and then just charge. It's simply something that Scouts can't prevent as well.
Yeah, the board control and DS denial is something I've been surprised hasn't been mentioned more. My buddy who plays GSC is several shades of pissed off about that, especially coming so soon on the heels of the codex he's been waiting 2 years to get.
GW: 'GSC are amazing!'
GSC Players: 'You really care about us! Thanks!'
Two weeks later:
GSC Players: 'Why do you hate me? I haven't even gotten to play my army yet.'
GW: 'We don't actually want deep strike assault and cult ambush to be viable tactics. Also, everyone hates the Kellermorph.'
You make a great point about it not being mentioned more and I think it's just because it's easier to grasp hard numbers on a profile rather than the tactics behind board control. It's something that more so you start to understand once you see it on the board and the effect it has. It absolutely brutalizes GSC and Ork DS to the point of no return. Also yes screw that kellermorph lol.
That's actually a lot of denial to units that want to appear and then just charge. It's simply something that Scouts can't prevent as well.
Yeah, the board control and DS denial is something I've been surprised hasn't been mentioned more. My buddy who plays GSC is several shades of pissed off about that, especially coming so soon on the heels of the codex he's been waiting 2 years to get.
GW: 'GSC are amazing!'
GSC Players: 'You really care about us! Thanks!'
Two weeks later:
GSC Players: 'Why do you hate me? I haven't even gotten to play my army yet.'
GW: 'We don't actually want deep strike assault and cult ambush to be viable tactics. Also, everyone hates the Kellermorph.'
Hah, yea, it throws a wet noodle on GSC, but then they can do it, too...so it's their fault!
GSC has a few ways to deal with pulling down those deepstrike blockers, but might need nids to help. It should be interesting to see how it plays out.
22 for the infiltrator is just too much for some deepstrike denial. A squad coming in at 110 points for the minimum 5 man when I can get intercessors for 85 or two entire squads of scouts (and deny way more space and get those sweet CPs) just doesn't make sense.
Shame as I was excited to add them to my wolfie boys but that's just too much. Same with the captain. At 110 no way he makes the cut in my army.
The libby at 100 seems like a steal (too cheap, I have a hard time believing it). The Eliminators at 63 for the unit seems about right. Could be a little more/less (60-65). I'm not sure about the suppressors at 33. Same price as a hellblaster but better. Just a squishy though so I'm not sold.
Depending on if new strats/tactics come out these prices might make more/less sense but as it stands now mediocre outside of the Libby and bad for the infiltrators.
I would bet that GW is using the base prices in the codex to price out new things, completely forgetting that they adjusted points in Chapter Approved and should be using that as the guide.
It looks like Oblitz are definitely going to be doing well; I'll update my model with the new cost estimate when I get home.
Eliminators for 63 points a section is pleasing.
More importantly, the Accelerator Cannons being priced separately is indicative that there could be hope in the form of future options for the Suppressors, that are hopefully more inspiring. 99 points for the suppressors is pretty much right as predicted, and I can't say I'm too enthusiastic about it.
22 points for Infiltrators if way too high. That's definitely in hard pass territory.
Greater Possessed are probably way too expensive, but I kind of predicted that anyway, and this doesn't change much.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/07 20:08:33
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
I find deepstrike blocking to be an ability potentially worthy of the price they're paying. You can cover a significant section of the board with 5 guys.
Daedalus81 wrote: I find deepstrike blocking to be an ability potentially worthy of the price they're paying. You can cover a significant section of the board with 5 guys.
Yeah, and they will never be charged by a unit arriving from reserves, so that's something
Daedalus81 wrote: I find deepstrike blocking to be an ability potentially worthy of the price they're paying. You can cover a significant section of the board with 5 guys.
Yeah, 5 guys can prevent deepstrikes in an area 32"x24". That's pretty nice if you're playing a gunline or something similar.
I've been playing a few tournament games with that stupid SW Falchion list and these guys would be pretty ok in that army.
I just hate how GW refuses to give primaris marines any sort of exciting CC gear.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/07 20:54:42
Daedalus81 wrote: I find deepstrike blocking to be an ability potentially worthy of the price they're paying. You can cover a significant section of the board with 5 guys.
Yeah, 5 guys can prevent deepstrikes in an area 32"x24". That's pretty nice if you're playing a gunline or something similar.
I've been playing a few tournament games with that stupid SW Falchion list and these guys would be pretty ok in that army.
I just hate how GW refuses to give primaris marines any sort of exciting CC gear.
You are going to take your combat knife and go kill those enemy terminators and YOU ARE GOING TO LIKE IT!
Yeah primaris melee sucks. It's an odd thing when the intercessors are their best melee unit.
bananathug wrote: 22 for the infiltrator is just too much for some deepstrike denial. A squad coming in at 110 points for the minimum 5 man when I can get intercessors for 85 or two entire squads of scouts (and deny way more space and get those sweet CPs) just doesn't make sense.
Shame as I was excited to add them to my wolfie boys but that's just too much. Same with the captain. At 110 no way he makes the cut in my army.
The libby at 100 seems like a steal (too cheap, I have a hard time believing it). The Eliminators at 63 for the unit seems about right. Could be a little more/less (60-65). I'm not sure about the suppressors at 33. Same price as a hellblaster but better. Just a squishy though so I'm not sold.
Depending on if new strats/tactics come out these prices might make more/less sense but as it stands now mediocre outside of the Libby and bad for the infiltrators.
I have zero stock in these numbers. Current Primaris librarian is 101. So this guy can infiltrate and has a better cover save for a point less?
5500 pts 
6500 pts 
7000 pts 
9000 pts 
13.000 pts 
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