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I have brute shield bullgryns in cover.
Brute shield is a 2+
Cover makes it a 1+
Now I cast Pyschic barrier improving the save by another +1

I know a save roll of 1 always fails, but can this combo allow for a save to get a 0+ essentially. SO i would need a -2 AP weapon to get me to a 2+?

Yes, but it's important o look at the wording. The save itself is still 2+, but the Cover and Psychic power (correct me on the power, I do not know the wording) improve your ROLL, not the save.

So you still need a 2+, but AP-2 and those bonuses cancel each other out

The new Marine Eliminators are in a similar situation. Their cloak gives them +2 to their armour ROLLS if in cover. But their armour save is just 3+. It is just that against AP-0, or -1. a ROLL of 2 would count as 3

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Same with Lias Issodon. In cover he has a 0+ save.

Additionally, there are some rare units which grant you bonuses if you make a save, such as Kastelan Robots. Because cover grants +1 to the roll, not the save these effects are more likely to trigger unless they state an unmodified roll.

Yeah... the game very rarely lets you improve your actual armor save. Instead, it frequently lets you improve your armor save rolls.

Some units have a native 7+ armor save. The only way to roll a 7+ is if you roll a 6 and have some effect that gives +1 to your armor save rolls (such as being in cover).

Note that the shields are also +2 to save, NOT a 2+.

But, stacking enough stuff, you can get +5 on a 4+ save, requiring AP-4 to fail on a die roll of 2.

ARRGH this is why short-cutting like this infuriates me to no end.

A Bulgryn with +4 to it's save roll is not a 0+ save, it's a 4+ save on a D6+4. Armour Penetration then adds a negative modifier, so for example if you're hit by a AP -2 weapon, you have a 5+ save on a D6+4-2. You can now roll RESULTS of 3,4,5,6,7 or 8. A ROLL of 1 always fails irrespective of modifiers, so you have a 4/6 chance of passing the save.

 Valkyrie wrote:
Same with Lias Issodon. In cover he has a 0+ save.

Additionally, there are some rare units which grant you bonuses if you make a save, such as Kastelan Robots. Because cover grants +1 to the roll, not the save these effects are more likely to trigger unless they state an unmodified roll.

The Kastelan Robots' Repulsor Grid ability was changed in the codex to reflect a mortal wound back at the shooting unit on a roll of a 6 "after re-rolls but before modifiers". It also only happens when you roll a 6 for the invulnerable saving throw, so it isn't affected by cover and doesn't happen when making non-invulnerable saving throw.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
ARRGH this is why short-cutting like this infuriates me to no end.

A Bulgryn with +4 to it's save roll is not a 0+ save, it's a 4+ save on a D6+4. Armour Penetration then adds a negative modifier, so for example if you're hit by a AP -2 weapon, you have a 5+ save on a D6+4-2. You can now roll RESULTS of 3,4,5,6,7 or 8. A ROLL of 1 always fails irrespective of modifiers, so you have a 5/6 chance of passing the save.

I think you meant a 4/6 (Simplified to 2/3) chance of passing the save, as the 3 and 4 do not pass the save in your example of a 5+ save above.

Yeah my bad I still have the +4 in my head, not +2. Corrected now.

xlDuke wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:
Same with Lias Issodon. In cover he has a 0+ save.

Additionally, there are some rare units which grant you bonuses if you make a save, such as Kastelan Robots. Because cover grants +1 to the roll, not the save these effects are more likely to trigger unless they state an unmodified roll.

The Kastelan Robots' Repulsor Grid ability was changed in the codex to reflect a mortal wound back at the shooting unit on a roll of a 6 "after re-rolls but before modifiers". It also only happens when you roll a 6 for the invulnerable saving throw, so it isn't affected by cover and doesn't happen when making non-invulnerable saving throw.

But the Kastelans' Aegis Protocols adds 1 to the saves. If it didn't state "before modifiers" then the Aegis would cause reflections on a 5+ instead.

When someone says its a 1+ or a 0+ armour save I know exactly what it means and it creates a clear communication with my opponent.

When my opponent says something like its a 3+ 5++ save with a +1 to armour save and +1 to saveing throws and its in cover. It might be a summary of how you get to the right result but all I need to know is what im rolling


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 DeathReaper wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
ARRGH this is why short-cutting like this infuriates me to no end.

A Bulgryn with +4 to it's save roll is not a 0+ save, it's a 4+ save on a D6+4. Armour Penetration then adds a negative modifier, so for example if you're hit by a AP -2 weapon, you have a 5+ save on a D6+4-2. You can now roll RESULTS of 3,4,5,6,7 or 8. A ROLL of 1 always fails irrespective of modifiers, so you have a 5/6 chance of passing the save.

I think you meant a 4/6 (Simplified to 2/3) chance of passing the save, as the 3 and 4 do not pass the save in your example of a 5+ save above.

What this shows is the lack of clarity in this style of communication

Ifi have a bullgryn with +4 sv on its 4+
I have a 0+ save
im fireing AP2 so you need to roll a 2+
clear and communicated in 5 words

I have a 4+ sv which im adding +4 to
Im firing ap2 so +4 -2 is +2 so dice rolls of 2,3,4,5,6 will mean
I get the right result but its taken double the wirds/time to communicate

Yes there is a technical difference in +1 to rolls for abilitys that require 6+ to trigger but these are special cases and rare and I would be communicateing that clearly to my opponent.

There are some rules that modify saving throws, and sine that modify characteristics.

This can make a difference.

Someone above did a nice job pointing out it's +4 to the roll not the save.