Are Gloriana-class battleships all they are cracked up to be? Likely Vigilus spoilers inside.

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**Haighus**

Following on from this in the N&R thread:

Lorek wrote:Take the background talk to the proper forum, please.

Irbis wrote:
Kirasu wrote:
In what way does BFG rules have anything to do with this? These games rarely reflect the fluff, however, a book CAN reflect the fluff accurately but GW is writing saturday morning cartoons lately. You don't seem like you know what a Gloriana class ship is either with the statement of "It might have".. It's orders of magnitudes more powerful and durable than any other ship ever constructed (Thats why only less than 2 dozen were ever constructed). One eldar ship isn't going to blow "huge holes" in it.. Again, deathstrike missiles are battlefield weapons and are a complete and utter joke in a void war.

But the fluff has been a disaster since the Ward Era anyway, unless you love G.I Joe style writing.

I like how 95% of the time the only argument of people who don't like additions to the lore is "how dare they touch my headcanon (that had little in common with canon in the first place), the complete !".

First, even ignoring the fact BFG completely trumps whatever you imagine 40K space combat to be, if you had any point to stand on about ramming tactics efficiency, the ramming prows wouldn't feature extremely prominently on literally every single Imperial, Chaos, Eldar, Ork, Dark Eldar (add dozen more races) ship. Oh, wait, they do, so you're completely wrong to begin with.

Second, it seems you have no idea what Gloriana is. Before HH novels retconned them, Glorianas were simple battle barges, end of story. The ships that were later named Glorianas feature in dozens of books and short stories, and not a single one of these paints them as anything exceptional. Hell, half of HH stories don't either, duel of Infidus Imperator (bog standard battle barge) vs Macragge's Honour somehow wasn't one-sided engagement and Word Bearers fully expected to be able to win. I wonder why if Glorianas are so l33t? In battle of Phall, the Iron Blood was boarded and would be destroyed if IF didn't suddenly withdraw which again doesn't really jive with your headcanon, does it? You have several other Glorianas like Swordstorm and Amphion (which was 'just' a navy battleship, again weird status for supposed h4x ship, not to mention a blow for their supposed rarity) destroyed in normal battles, others like Chronicle of Ashes captured in regular battles, etc, etc.

Ironically, what is perfect example of "G.I Joe style writing" is trumpeting up of Glorianas as these invincible mega-hiper battleships (as opposed to 'just' a heavy battle barge with flagship modifications) by a handful of BL writers (who then ass-pulled even more giga-duper class out of thin air, the Furious Abyss trio) and your inability to see it is kind of funny. Maybe look in the mirror before accusing someone first?

As for deathstrikes being 'battlefield' weapons, this is "technically" right but it completely ignores the fact votex warheads ignore armour and if you drill a few dozen holes through the length of the ship it will completely cease to be combat-worthy, no matter what technical nitpicking you will use. If you stab someone with a butter knife, whining it's not meant for that won't make the wound disappear, will it?

Haighus wrote:

Spoiler:

Iracundus wrote:
Thanatos73 wrote:
I think people get hung up on the power of the Vengeful Spirit and Gloriana class ships in general. These were the Legion flagships, designed to be among the most powerful warships humanity had ever built. But they were not invincible. They were more powerful than any other ship one on one, and they were flagships that were commanded by the best strategic minds in the Imperial Navy, frequently by Primarchs too. They were surrounded by dozens of other ships too.

But they were far from invincible. The Dark Angels Gloriana was on a skeleton crew and battered to near space unworthiness by the end of the Heresy. She was almost lost to one Death Guard battleship. And if I remember that part right, it was a ramming attack too!

By 40k most of the Glorianas were lost and the Vengeful Spirit has been through 10,000 years of battle and Warp mutations. She’s described by GW as having sections open to space and unusable. She’s a shadow of her former glory by 40k and is still one of the most powerful ships in existence.

There is a scale drawing of a Gloriana class alongside a "standard" battle barge in FW Horus Heresy Book 3. The Gloriana is about 2x as long in length. However as demonstrated by an Emperor battleship vs. a Lunar cruiser comparison, doubling the length only resulted in about 50% extra Damage capacity, and the Planet Killer vs. the Emperor class only yielded an extra 2 Damage points though we do not know for certain the length of the Planet Killer. I highly doubt the Damage capacity of the Gloriana exceeding the 14 of the Planet Killer.

Even IF for purely the sake of argument, we generously gave a Gloriana 50% more than an Emperor, i.e. a total of 18, a single Bulkhead Collapse inflicting 6 extra Damage means 7 Damage inflicted. That is still over 7/18, or over 1/3 of the total Damage capacity in a single blow. It is easy to see why any commander would withdraw their flagship in such a situation, especially if it might have already taken damage earlier in the battle.

Spoiler:

Gloriana-class battleships are not the most powerful ships built by the Imperium. That honour goes to the Abyss-class, of which only three were built at the onset of the Horus Heresy.

We have BFG rules for a surviving Abyss-class in 40k- the Rapturous Rex. IIRC, it had 24hp, definitely at least 20. That is the upper limit for a Gloriana-class, but the actual value would likely be lower. I think 16-18hp would be very plausible for a Gloriana based on this. Only unique survivors of the Dark Age would be more powerful, like the Phalanx.

Platuan4th wrote:
endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Once you start bringing in gravity of other planets, and probably the gravity generated by the mass of itself, a smaller ship that can blow a hole in it somewhere could compromise it’s super structure so much it could potentially start collapsing on itself. Especially if that hole is in the middle of the ship.

The most awful thing about it is, I bet it was influenced by the last Jedi....

Most likely it was influenced by the centuries of ramships in actual naval engagements or BFG where ramming ships was a valid, legitimate tactic for at least 3 of the factions.

Discuss.

**BrianDavion**

well one thing to consider is that even if they where the ULTIMATE SHIPS OF ULTIMATE during the Heresy, thats no longer the case, Wolf Spear describes the damage Russ's flag ship had taken over the heresy and notes that well it was still capable, it had taken massive amounts of damage and would require a huge amount of of dry dock time to fix (liek a decade) and it later noted the Vengeful spirit wasn't in much better shape. chances are the vengful spirit never has been FULLY repaired. and is a shadow of it's capabilities when first built

**Irbis**

I stand by my quote. Speaking of Macragge's Honour alone, when BL retconned it into that super-battleship lots of UM players on the forums did double-take finding the vessel in a lot of sources, yet never doing anything notable. There are 4 or 5 UM battle barges named as flagships, Macragge's Honour was never one of them. Then people started to ask 'if the ship was so powerful, why it never did anything of note during the Tyrannic wars or when Honsou invaded Ultramar'? All the evidence from pre-retcon just points at it being nothing that special.

Even in modern, post-retcon fluff outside of BL they tend to play it down. Macragge's Honour commanded by Rob was actually captured by Red Corsairs in Gathering Storm, something that really shouldn't happen vs rag-tag band that doesn't really have any capital ships. Then there is the other Ultramarine Gloriana, the Lex Talonis, given to successor chapter Rob really didn't like (the Nemesis). You'd think he'd give a vessel that valuable to one of the chapters commanded by his inner circle captains, not to black sheep of Ultramarine family - and it again, did nothing of note, despite belonging to chapter with an entire Imperial Armour book devoted to them, including heavy naval operations.

Given the fact one of the authors responsible for retcon likes absurd hiperbole and drumming up chaos forces (including "I totally had three abyss class ships, not one" asspull) I'd personally just say Gloriana was a bit bigger command ship that was better than a normal battle barge, but not absurdly so, like in older fluff, and blame all the spanking on chaos-induced hallucinations

**Tygre**

I guess Gloriana class ships compared to Retribution class ships would be like the Yamato vs an Iowa (1945) class ship. The Yamato had thicker armour and bigger guns. But a fleet led by the Yamato did once get chased off by some angry destroyer escorts.

**Peregrine**

Also, deathstrike missiles being battlefield weapons is a weird fluff inconsistency driven by the desire to sell a 28mm kit for it. They're explicitly described in the fluff as ICBMs, so even by modern standards that's much less "battlefield weapon" and more "vaporize the entire battlefield from a continent away". It's not unreasonable to have weapons like that damaging a battleship.

**AndrewGPaul**

You can blame that on Epic 40,000.

The original mini and rules described them as cruise missiles - they even flew around the battlefield for a couple of turns giving the enemy an opportunity to shoot them down before their titans and commanders were wiped out by three vortex warheads.

(although I think there was still a discrepancy between their described range and them being used as battlefield assets). Then Epic 40,000 redesigns the miniature into a Chimera-based TEL vehicle (with an even larger missile than the current 40k model). I don't know when they got it back, or what state it was in when they did.

I'm sure I've read a description of the Vengeful Spirit having partially ruined and abandoned decks and sections - possibly by the time of the siege of the Emperor's palace - so it's probably not operating at full design capacity.

The Red Corsairs were pretty successful pirates - they started with one damaged strike cruiser, later managed to capture a Space Wolves vessel with the assistance of traitors amongst that vessel's crew, and presumably worked their way up. Getting a free Blackstone Fortress (one of only two known to survive in the "present") probably doesn't hurt.

As for the Macragge's Honour, it was lost in the warp for an indefinite period, after suffering heavy damage from close-range combat with a Word Bearers battleship; that explains why it did nothing after the opening moments of the Word Bearers' attack on Ultramar.

**iGuy91**

I actually love the way the thing is portrayed in BFG:2 I think its a very solid depiction of what the ships ought to be. Behemoth ships of the line certainly, but not indestructible.

**Formosa**

iGuy91 wrote:
I actually love the way the thing is portrayed in BFG:2 I think its a very solid depiction of what the ships ought to be. Behemoth ships of the line certainly, but not indestructible.

BFG Armada 2 dies a poor job showing how tough the ships are, shields are just an extra life bar that is shot off mega quickly, but that is the format sadly, I would have made void shields mega meaty and the hulls slightly less so, but I doubt people would want the kind of BFG game I would make lol

**locarno24**

Irbis wrote:
I stand by my quote. Speaking of Macragge's Honour alone, when BL retconned it into that super-battleship lots of UM players on the forums did double-take finding the vessel in a lot of sources, yet never doing anything notable. There are 4 or 5 UM battle barges named as flagships, Macragge's Honour was never one of them. Then people started to ask 'if the ship was so powerful, why it never did anything of note during the Tyrannic wars or when Honsou invaded Ultramar'? All the evidence from pre-retcon just points at it being nothing that special.

Even in modern, post-retcon fluff outside of BL they tend to play it down. Macragge's Honour commanded by Rob was actually captured by Red Corsairs in Gathering Storm, something that really shouldn't happen vs rag-tag band that doesn't really have any capital ships. Then there is the other Ultramarine Gloriana, the Lex Talonis, given to successor chapter Rob really didn't like (the Nemesis). You'd think he'd give a vessel that valuable to one of the chapters commanded by his inner circle captains, not to black sheep of Ultramarine family - and it again, did nothing of note, despite belonging to chapter with an entire Imperial Armour book devoted to them, including heavy naval operations.

Given the fact one of the authors responsible for retcon likes absurd hiperbole and drumming up chaos forces (including "I totally had three abyss class ships, not one" asspull) I'd personally just say Gloriana was a bit bigger command ship that was better than a normal battle barge, but not absurdly so, like in older fluff, and blame all the spanking on chaos-induced hallucinations

In fairnes, the Red Corsairs are not a rag-tag band - Huron has one of the largest personally sworn warbands outside the black legion, and certainly the biggest force not decended from a first founding legion....not to mention that he's probably the single most competent fleet commander amongst the heretic astartes.

Also, Kor Phaeron's flagship was a 'battle barge' but calling it standard may be overdoing it a lot. The commissioning name of the Infidus Imperator was Raptorus Rex (no, it's not an abyss class - the three were Furious Abyss, Trisagion and Blessed Lady). That's been an immensely powerful ship since long before the HH novels since it's the totally-not-a-ghost-ship capital vessel associated with the legion of the damned.

As to deathstrike missiles - it's worth noting that they are used as ship-to-ship weapons. In Battlefleet Koronus, the RPG sourcebook covering naval combat, the broadside macrobatteries of Optimus Nemesis (a hades class heavy cruiser) are explicitely defined as being 'deathstrike missile broadsides'.
I mean, don't get me wrong. It's throwing a lot of them.....

And yes, ramming and boarding are a core part of the part-roman-part-napoleonic naval warfare of 40k.

**AndrewGPaul**

Hmmm. Macragge's Honour states the Infidus Imperator was destroyed during the Heresy. Dark Creed states it's still in service with the Word Bearers in the 41st millennium. The background for the Badab War and Legion of the Damned state the Raptorus Rex was in use as the Fire Hawks' fortress-monastery until late M41.

You pays your money, you takes your choice.

Possible resolutions include the Raptorus Rex name and/or Infidus Imperator being re-used (there's precedent in real life and in 40k - one would expect that 40k follows the common parctise of naming a class of ships after the first ship of that calss to be launched, but the BFG rulebook lists a ship called Retribution which is a Lunar-class cruiser not a Retribution-class battleship), the wreck of the Infidus Imperator being retrieved and recommissioned by the Word Bearers or the whole thing just being a series of record-keeping mix-ups.

**Marshal Loss**

I wouldn't use mainstream GW's studio awful lore to judge the capabilities of anything.

**AndrewGPaul**

So, if you don't want to use the main sources of background, what would you use?

**BrianDavion**

AndrewGPaul wrote:
So, if you don't want to use the main sources of background, what would you use?

His head canon clearly!

**Carlovonsexron**

AndrewGPaul wrote:
Hmmm. Macragge's Honour states the Infidus Imperator was destroyed during the Heresy. Dark Creed states it's still in service with the Word Bearers in the 41st millennium. The background for the Badab War and Legion of the Damned state the Raptorus Rex was in use as the Fire Hawks' fortress-monastery until late M41.

You pays your money, you takes your choice. Possible resolutions include the Raptorus Rex name and/or Infidus Imperator being re-used (there's precedent in real life and in 40k - one would expect that 40k follows the common parctise of naming a class of ships after the first ship of that calss to be launched, but the BFG rulebook lists a ship called Retribution which is a Lunar-class cruiser not a Retribution-class battleship), the wreck of the Infidus Imperator being retrieved and recommissioned by the Word Bearers or the whole thing just being a series of record-keeping mix-ups.

This is 40k. The safest bet is the last option

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

It depends. Always my favourite answer.

What we know is that a Gloriana class isn’t something one typically goes toe-to-toe with. In a broadside exchange, there’s one clean winner, and it’s not you.

As a ship’s mass increases, so does it’s durability. Gloriana class can seemingly take ridiculous levels of punishment, and still be in fighting condition.

The rest is left to the author to best serve their plot.

**Eldenfirefly**

The way I read it. The whole deathstrike missiles thing triggered some sort of warp vortex in the vicinity of the Vengeful Spirit. It was like some sort of mini black hole that was expanding. So, she basically had to either wrap away or stay there and be utterly destroyed eventually by the expanding vortex.

I don't think it matters how powerful the Vengeful Spirit was as a ship if she was faced with that. And the book also said that as part of the diversion, the imperium fleet spent most of its ship attacking the Vengeful Spirit. So, yeah, in terms of ship to ship battle with it leading the chaos fleet. It was OP and the lynchpin of the entire chaos fleet. It was probably instrumental towards destroying a large part of the imperium fleet.

Its just that what finally caused it to warp away wasn't something normal. It wasn't the usual kind of stuff it could see coming from miles away and raise it shields against.

Maybe a good analogy would be an actual battleship. We can imagine a massive battleship that is twice the size of the Yamato. It would be op in a battleship vs battleship point of view possibly. But if someone managed to teleport 6 torpedoes into its hold and detonate them... well, it would probably do enough damage the ship would retreat at the very least.

I would say that rather than the fluff not making the Vengeful Spirit strong enough, it was more of a case of the fluff actually giving the Vengeful Spirit the plot armor it needed so that despite having 6 deathstrike missiles detonating on close range unprepared, it still didn't actually destroy that ship.

Just another case in point. An aircraft carrier is a massive ship, but some of been sunk by just one torpedo alone.

**LumenPraebeo**

locarno24 wrote:
And yes, ramming and boarding are a core part of the part-roman-part-napoleonic naval warfare of 40k.

Boarding actions fell out of favor amongst professional naval powers by the time of the Napoleonic Wars. They did have a higher chance of taking place during massive fleet engagements like Trafalgar, since the tactic was purposely to break formation and engage the enemy, gambling upon the quality of the individual crews and not the discipline of the formation. A lot of ships moving in many directions is bound to force captains into boarding actions to safeguard their own vessels. Outside of these large naval engagements though, penetrating power from guns was desired first(easily achieved), firepower second (not so easily achieved), and range third (hardest to achieve). Boarding actions by the time of the Napoleonic Wars fell to a low priority, and the amount of Marines/assault force maintained on a ship of the fighting sail is pretty much how much modern naval vessels have. Of course, if you cripple an enemy ship, and they still refuse to surrender, a boarding action would be called for sometimes. A captured ship can be brought to friendly ports and sold, for a small profit spread amongst the crew, so its pretty tempting. If you look at it from the other side though, not surrendering could mean the enemy has the option to leave you dead in the water if you don't have the materials to make repairs, which is pretty much a death sentence. Most crews surrendered once their ship and crew have suffered heavy damage.