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How do?

So this is something I’ve been pondering for a bit.

See, in the older fluff, The Long War was simply referring to ongoing, grinding warfare. Traitors vs Loyalists, a war that started at Istvaan, and has continued for 10 millennia.

Then the Fall Of Cadia came about. And that shone new perspective on things. Abaddon never actually failed. Rather, the Imperium singularly failed to join the dots of the preceding 12 Black Crusades. Each and every one, the Imperium ‘won’, in so far as the Traitors were driven back into the Eye of Terror, and safely bottled up for a few decades, possibly centuries.

But we now know that was never the case. Instead, Abaddon was simply playing a ridiculously long game, one which can span millennia. Abaddon is an Astartes after all. And not allowing for violent death, functionally immortal as a result. He needn’t worry about having a distinctly finite time to achieve his goals. Only that he gives those that demand such a good fight every so often. Beyond that, he can plan hundreds upon hundreds of years in advance.

And that’s something The Imperium has lacked for some time, at least until Guilliman’s ressurection. Think about it. Abaddon is around 10,000 years old. The oldest known Loyalists? Bjorn, who’s woken now and again, and Dante, who’s a ‘mere’ 1,000ish years old.

That changes the perspective of what ‘The Long War’ means. It’s not simply that it’s been going on forever, but that Abaddon effectively has forever in which to enact his plans. Every strike, every victory, every loss - it all bleeds The Imperium. No need for Horus” dash for glory. The current and ongoing state of The Imperium means it’s just not required. Not when you can literally take your sweet time.

At least, that’s my take on it. I’d like to hear your thoughts. Is Abaddon on a long, torturously slow road to inevitable and final victory? Is that what he’s banking on?

If you’re referencing background novels, please do cite, because I’ve not read many and wouldn’t object to a reading list

A war without Victory maybe called "Long War", but wouldn't it better suit the Name : "pointless slaughter" ?

The WH40k verse is a "multiplayer" game. Can't play forever without somebody else scoring that Victory You wanted....before you get there

I see the logic, but I also ponder the wisdom of entering a war of attrition vs. the Imperium. Abaddon is just one dude and if you're right his 'grand plan' involves attacking the Imperium's strongest strength. It's also, arguably, the same as doing nothing and waiting for the Evil Empire to fall by itself.

It’s about consistency of leadership, I guess.

Abaddon is the head honcho of the Traitor forces. He’s the only one able to unite them all under one banner. And that means it’s his solitary vision they’re ultimately pursuing, for good or for worse.

Sure, his strikes have been ultimately turned back, most of the time. But we now know that doesn’t matter, because he still achieved his objectives. At that point, it doesn’t matter how many Black Crusades it took. Could’ve, potentially, all been sewn up tighter than a duck’s bottom in the first. Could’ve taken another 50. But in the end, his victories are inevitable.

Consider his bailing out from Vigilus.

SPOILER WARNING!



That’s the action of someone thinking in the long, long term. There will be bits he inevitably makes up on the fly. But his overarching plan remains.

There’s no need to storm Terra in a mad dash. Not when you can bring The Emperors fall about by a thousand cuts. All you need is time, and a single strategic mind overseeing those thousand cuts, over thousands and thousands of years.

Abaddon understands Chaos. He knows it’s lure and appeal. And so long as mankind persists, he need never worry about reinforcements. He may not command the limitless resources of The Imperium. He doesn’t need to. Simply because he has time on his side.

Hence why I believe The Long War better references a single, ongoing plan, rather than the simple duration of things.

There is also the philosophical war Abaddon rages, promoting the Long War as an ideal, not letting his followers slip into the Eternal war.

I think the war between the Gods tends to be called the Great Game or some variation. I know there's Chaos in the Old World, but it would be cool to see a 40k-style Cthulhu Wars based on the Great Game.

I really don't think Abbadon is close to 10'000 years old. I doubt he's even hit a thousand.
I think he's launched each Crusade to accomplish his objectives, returned to take care of Chaos business and consolidate his gains. Then he just launches the next Crusade.

It's always seemed odd to me Abbadon has centuries of doing nothing and it made him seem a bit...lame.

Well, Abaddon has been a constant pre, during and indeed post Heresy.

Whatever wonkiness the Warp plays with time, Abaddon is seemingly immune or at least unaffected.

So from M31 to M41, he’s been there, and totally done that. Always in action, always on the move.

Well, the war has been going on for 10 000 years. It is quite literally a L O N G war. Like, 4 or 5 hundred generations.

I doubt they started calling it the long war until, I dunno, one hundred generations had passed, and then the name stuck.

Something cool about the Talon of Horus and Black Legion is that they point out how difficult it is to organise and provision a Black Crusade. Lords of Silence does that where the Solace gets flung off into nowhere because of back-stabbing in the crew. Things are hard to organize where the Warp is involved.

 Nurglitch wrote:
I think the war between the Gods tends to be called the Great Game or some variation. I know there's Chaos in the Old World, but it would be cool to see a 40k-style Cthulhu Wars based on the Great Game.

Eternal War and the Great Game are different things.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
How do?

So this is something I’ve been pondering for a bit.

See, in the older fluff, The Long War was simply referring to ongoing, grinding warfare. Traitors vs Loyalists, a war that started at Istvaan, and has continued for 10 millennia.

Then the Fall Of Cadia came about. And that shone new perspective on things. Abaddon never actually failed. Rather, the Imperium singularly failed to join the dots of the preceding 12 Black Crusades. Each and every one, the Imperium ‘won’, in so far as the Traitors were driven back into the Eye of Terror, and safely bottled up for a few decades, possibly centuries.

But we now know that was never the case. Instead, Abaddon was simply playing a ridiculously long game, one which can span millennia. Abaddon is an Astartes after all. And not allowing for violent death, functionally immortal as a result. He needn’t worry about having a distinctly finite time to achieve his goals. Only that he gives those that demand such a good fight every so often. Beyond that, he can plan hundreds upon hundreds of years in advance.

And that’s something The Imperium has lacked for some time, at least until Guilliman’s ressurection. Think about it. Abaddon is around 10,000 years old. The oldest known Loyalists? Bjorn, who’s woken now and again, and Dante, who’s a ‘mere’ 1,000ish years old.

That changes the perspective of what ‘The Long War’ means. It’s not simply that it’s been going on forever, but that Abaddon effectively has forever in which to enact his plans. Every strike, every victory, every loss - it all bleeds The Imperium. No need for Horus” dash for glory. The current and ongoing state of The Imperium means it’s just not required. Not when you can literally take your sweet time.

At least, that’s my take on it. I’d like to hear your thoughts. Is Abaddon on a long, torturously slow road to inevitable and final victory? Is that what he’s banking on?

If you’re referencing background novels, please do cite, because I’ve not read many and wouldn’t object to a reading list

Yup, I agree with you. Abaddon is playing the super long game. Actually, he is probably one of the few on the chaos side left with such a singular purpose, which is to bring down the imperium. Once the daemon Primarchs ascended, they became living extensions of their respective chaos gods. This means that their goals changed. Khorne is just about the everlasting slaughter. Slanaash is about indulgence and corruption. Nurgle is about spreading diseases and pestilence. Tzeenth has so many plans (all every changing) that it would never focus on just one. Furthermore, Abaddon saw Horus fail. He would never tie himself to one chaos god. Its why he has refused Daemon Prince Ascension for the longest time.

Abaddon knows that chaos ebbs and recedes. It never ever grows so much in one short burst that it could bring down the imperium. Not with the kind of resources the imperium can muster. But he plans for this by having the black crusades. Each one is a chance to gain more allies, further cement the black legion, and gain the secret goals that allows him to work towards his long term plan. Each time he launches one, it is at a time when chaos is at ascendence. He knows that it will eventually peter out. He doesn't mind. Each black crusade brings him ever closer to his grand plan.

And he has made progress. Cadia has fallen, the universe is split in half. Chaos has a lot more space now to spill over and cause havoc. In his mind, as long as each black crusade brings him closer to his goal, he doesn't care how many crusades he has to launch and "fail". Besides, he is the warmaster, he doesn't answer to any god or man. So, who is going to hold him accountable for a "failed" black crusade? The minions that did all the dying are already dead, or will be by the time he launches his next crusade. And nobody ever cares that the previous one failed. They are all caught up in the moment of the current black crusade. When Abby launches a black crusade, he offers the chance to all the chaos minions that join him for a glorious war into imperium space, to wreck havoc, to burn, maim, and slaughter. To do everything chaos loves to do, but on a massive scale. So, why not? Its why he always has no lack of volunteers and helpers every time he launches one. What is now revealed to us is that the black crusades all have a point. They are all one chess move within a super long game of chess, where his end goal is to check mate the imperium. You have to respect the guy for having that kind of singular drive and purpose and planning.

Has Abaddon actually been living and breathing for 10,000 years or is that purely in name due to warp shenanigans? What is Abaddon's biological age?

I always thought the Long War was a cool name for a cool idea. Never thought to examine the reasoning behind it though. It doesn't seem like it'd hold up under scrutiny.

So far as we know, and tracking his activity, it's likely he is indeed 10,000+.

Lifted from Lexicanum wrote:781.M31 - 1st Black Crusade, The First Battle of Cadia. Abaddon claims the daemon sword Drach'nyen.[8a]
2. 597.M32 - 2nd Black Crusade, the Cursing of Corona. Abaddon invokes a curse that sinks into the core of Belis Corona.[8a]
3. 909.M32 - 3rd Black Crusade, the Host of Tallomin[1], Desecration of Gerstahl. Abaddon destroys the remains of Saint Gerstahl.[8a]
4. 001.M34 - 4th Black Crusade, the Devastation of El'Phanor[1], the Death of the Kromarch. Destruction of the Grand Citadel of Kromarch.[8a]
5. 723.M36 - 5th Black Crusade, the Tide of Blood[1], the Scouring of Elysia. Abaddon summons the daemon prince Doombreed and destroys the Warhawks and Venerators Chapters.[8a]
6. 901.M36 - 6th Black Crusade, Drecarth's Folly. Abaddon brings the Sons of the Eye to heel.[8a]
7. 811.M37 - 7th Black Crusade, the Ghost War. Abaddon claims the gene-seed of Blood Angels slaughtered at Mackan.[8a]
8. 999.M37 - 8th Black Crusade, the Skullgather. Abaddon appeases the Changer of Ways with sequences of death creating a mathematical equation of terrible and profane perfection.[8a]
9. 573.M38 - 9th Black Crusade, the Starving of Cancephalus. Several Chaos fleets leave the Eye of Terror undetected during the Antecanis Massacre.[8a]
10. 001.M39 - 10th Black Crusade, the Conflict of Helica. Abaddon and the Iron Warriors fight the Iron Hands at Medusa.[8a]
11. 301.M39 - 11th Black Crusade, the Doom of Relorria. Abaddon abducts thousands of orks to conduct experiments on their use of the warp.[8a]
12. 139.M41 - 12th Black Crusade, the Gothic War. Abaddon captures the last two Blackstone Fortresses.[8b]
13. 999.M41 - 13th Black Crusade, the Fall of Cadia. Abaddon gathers the blessings of the Daemon Primarchs and launches a major attack on the Cadian system (currently ongoing).[8c]

So the first was M31 - can't have been long after Horus' fall. There's then fairly consistent activity until the present day.

Given gaps would be filled with replenishing ranks, establishing power bases and allies etc, that all points to him pretty much being as old as he actually should be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Abaddon is also likely very familiar with The Imperium's deliberate, enforced ignorance.

Who knows how many seemingly random attacks on worlds are part of a greater plan? For a functionally immortal strategist, they could be the first probes for a far larger attack that might not be launched for millennia. Strategically weaken certain sectors over centuries, then let the axe fall. Or gradually build up threat in one area, in order to strip defenders from another.

One thing we also know is that Chaos has somewhat more control over The Warp than The Imperium. Yes, it's imperfect and hardly to be trusted. But the difference between 'well, I'll ask if Dave The Daemon minds shifting his storm a smidge to let us past' and 'well, that's us stuffed, isn't it' is huge when you're looking at things on a galactic scale.

This all points to Abaddon at least having the option of planning on a truly colossal scale. As others have mentioned, he better understand the nature of Chaos than most, so is best placed to plan around it.

Consider the difference. Horus' strike at Terra was delayed because The World Eaters kept going horribly mental, and scooting off for a bit of bloodshed. Abaddon knows this - and likely has ways and means to make that work for him.

So it's not just a War that's being going on for a long time - but one that was always intended to play out over millennia.

Of course its the long game, otherwise the gods would have gotten a new champion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well, Abaddon has been a constant pre, during and indeed post Heresy.

Whatever wonkiness the Warp plays with time, Abaddon is seemingly immune or at least unaffected.

So from M31 to M41, he’s been there, and totally done that. Always in action, always on the move.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So far as we know, and tracking his activity, it's likely he is indeed 10,000+.

Lifted from Lexicanum wrote:781.M31 - 1st Black Crusade, The First Battle of Cadia. Abaddon claims the daemon sword Drach'nyen.[8a]
2. 597.M32 - 2nd Black Crusade, the Cursing of Corona. Abaddon invokes a curse that sinks into the core of Belis Corona.[8a]
3. 909.M32 - 3rd Black Crusade, the Host of Tallomin[1], Desecration of Gerstahl. Abaddon destroys the remains of Saint Gerstahl.[8a]
4. 001.M34 - 4th Black Crusade, the Devastation of El'Phanor[1], the Death of the Kromarch. Destruction of the Grand Citadel of Kromarch.[8a]
5. 723.M36 - 5th Black Crusade, the Tide of Blood[1], the Scouring of Elysia. Abaddon summons the daemon prince Doombreed and destroys the Warhawks and Venerators Chapters.[8a]
6. 901.M36 - 6th Black Crusade, Drecarth's Folly. Abaddon brings the Sons of the Eye to heel.[8a]
7. 811.M37 - 7th Black Crusade, the Ghost War. Abaddon claims the gene-seed of Blood Angels slaughtered at Mackan.[8a]
8. 999.M37 - 8th Black Crusade, the Skullgather. Abaddon appeases the Changer of Ways with sequences of death creating a mathematical equation of terrible and profane perfection.[8a]
9. 573.M38 - 9th Black Crusade, the Starving of Cancephalus. Several Chaos fleets leave the Eye of Terror undetected during the Antecanis Massacre.[8a]
10. 001.M39 - 10th Black Crusade, the Conflict of Helica. Abaddon and the Iron Warriors fight the Iron Hands at Medusa.[8a]
11. 301.M39 - 11th Black Crusade, the Doom of Relorria. Abaddon abducts thousands of orks to conduct experiments on their use of the warp.[8a]
12. 139.M41 - 12th Black Crusade, the Gothic War. Abaddon captures the last two Blackstone Fortresses.[8b]
13. 999.M41 - 13th Black Crusade, the Fall of Cadia. Abaddon gathers the blessings of the Daemon Primarchs and launches a major attack on the Cadian system (currently ongoing).[8c]

So the first was M31 - can't have been long after Horus' fall. There's then fairly consistent activity until the present day.

Given gaps would be filled with replenishing ranks, establishing power bases and allies etc, that all points to him pretty much being as old as he actually should be.

That doesn't mean he's 10'000 at all. We know that time in the Warp is different to time in our world. For all we know Abbadon only spent a total of 50 years in the Warp.

pm713 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So far as we know, and tracking his activity, it's likely he is indeed 10,000+.

Lifted from Lexicanum wrote:781.M31 - 1st Black Crusade, The First Battle of Cadia. Abaddon claims the daemon sword Drach'nyen.[8a]
2. 597.M32 - 2nd Black Crusade, the Cursing of Corona. Abaddon invokes a curse that sinks into the core of Belis Corona.[8a]
3. 909.M32 - 3rd Black Crusade, the Host of Tallomin[1], Desecration of Gerstahl. Abaddon destroys the remains of Saint Gerstahl.[8a]
4. 001.M34 - 4th Black Crusade, the Devastation of El'Phanor[1], the Death of the Kromarch. Destruction of the Grand Citadel of Kromarch.[8a]
5. 723.M36 - 5th Black Crusade, the Tide of Blood[1], the Scouring of Elysia. Abaddon summons the daemon prince Doombreed and destroys the Warhawks and Venerators Chapters.[8a]
6. 901.M36 - 6th Black Crusade, Drecarth's Folly. Abaddon brings the Sons of the Eye to heel.[8a]
7. 811.M37 - 7th Black Crusade, the Ghost War. Abaddon claims the gene-seed of Blood Angels slaughtered at Mackan.[8a]
8. 999.M37 - 8th Black Crusade, the Skullgather. Abaddon appeases the Changer of Ways with sequences of death creating a mathematical equation of terrible and profane perfection.[8a]
9. 573.M38 - 9th Black Crusade, the Starving of Cancephalus. Several Chaos fleets leave the Eye of Terror undetected during the Antecanis Massacre.[8a]
10. 001.M39 - 10th Black Crusade, the Conflict of Helica. Abaddon and the Iron Warriors fight the Iron Hands at Medusa.[8a]
11. 301.M39 - 11th Black Crusade, the Doom of Relorria. Abaddon abducts thousands of orks to conduct experiments on their use of the warp.[8a]
12. 139.M41 - 12th Black Crusade, the Gothic War. Abaddon captures the last two Blackstone Fortresses.[8b]
13. 999.M41 - 13th Black Crusade, the Fall of Cadia. Abaddon gathers the blessings of the Daemon Primarchs and launches a major attack on the Cadian system (currently ongoing).[8c]

So the first was M31 - can't have been long after Horus' fall. There's then fairly consistent activity until the present day.

Given gaps would be filled with replenishing ranks, establishing power bases and allies etc, that all points to him pretty much being as old as he actually should be.

That doesn't mean he's 10'000 at all. We know that time in the Warp is different to time in our world. For all we know Abbadon only spent a total of 50 years in the Warp.

True though he may be a 1,000,000 years for all we know.