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As you may (or may not) know, "All is Dust" is the rule for rubric marines and scarab occult that gives them +1 to saves against D1 weapons.

Now, this is pretty nice for rubrics-but utterly flawed for the scarab occult, given that they are already rocking a 2+ save, meaning it does nothing at all against AP- weapons, and in cover even AP1 weapons. the very weapons it should help against.

And just how many weapons (other than ironically themselves) rock any level of decent AP and are still D1? the ability is non-funcitonal.


So, simple change suggestion:
Rather than giving +1 to saves, it will give a reroll. naturally still under the condition of D1 weapons.

I know rerollable saves are somewhat of a sore spot, but given only 2 units in the game have this rule, and both are meh to bad, and there really are no ways in the game to stack this up to nutty invuls (the most they can get are 4+ invul), and even then its breakable by simply using D2 or Dd3 weapons.
Scarabs gets better, without actually removing their weakness.

What do you guys think?

Im going to say no to mass rerollable 2+ saves. It does sound like the rule is flawed, and that a fnp could replace it bit that wouldn't feel unique.

As for d1 ap2 or higher weapons, plasma and power weapons. Plasma being the bane of power armor anyways.

You're really complaining about this? Scarabs are one of the few Terminator variants to work on their own.

Personally I think the easiest fix to both Rubrics and Scarabs is bespoke powers like I discussed in the Grey Knights thread. Sorcerers leading these units should be focused on giving the dust heads various buffs.

SOC's are fine in my opinion. All Is Dust whilst being a bit clunky does have a place, it certainly makes my Tyranid Warriors weep! And my friends Bolt Rifles just don't bother, effectively ignoring his Ap -1 on terms is nice, also deep striking can help avoid the super nasty weapons.

On the other hand for Ruberic Marines make All Is Dust so they count as always standing still for shooting so the power armoured versions always get Beta Bolter rules!

Scarab Occult have never really impressed me on the table, but I find it's because they can't make it to melee (and when they do they pack 2 S4/D1 attacks each which doesn't scare anyone) and don't do a whole lot shooting, again due to S4/D1. They're an expensive way to keep chaff off one objective that get pounded off the table quickly as soon as a Knight or a Russ decides to glance in their direction.

Bumping them to a built-in 4++ would probably do a lot more to help them without needing to write much extra text.

D1 weapons with AP, here a few of the common ones:

Any shuriken weapon rolling a 6 to wound
Primaris marine boltrifles and their like
Heavy Bolters
Any deathwatch bolter
Most plasma
Most Necron Gauss weapons
The new chaos minigun.
Heavy flamer
Deathspitters
Power swords, axes, maul and a huge amount of other close combat weapons.

That's just off the top of my head, the rule helps protect them from a huge variety of weapons and you didn't mention that it also allows you to move and fire heavy weapons with no penalty which is pretty useful. I think they are in a pretty good place, certainly no worse than other terminators and they in no way need a re-rollable 2+ save, nothing does, ever again!

"No worse than other terminators" and "a pretty good place" is quite the gap honestly.

No terminators are good. But at least you can have 5 chaos terminators now for sub 150 pts, loyalist for sub 140 pts, but scarabs need to pay 190 pts at the minimum to even field, and that's a big no-no.

All is dust and ap-2 bolters does not justify the 40 pt price increase, the cataphractii movement penalty (4") without getting the 4++ bonus AND the utter lack of weapon options altogether.

Scarab Occult are absolutely fine for their points cost. I run a unit of ten all the time and have used them successfully in tournaments etc. They are by far the best way to kill 30 boyz/turn or run through abberents, talos and other tough 7 or less units. For 8 extra points vs chaos termies you get -2 AP bolters, the ability to take hellfire missle racks, power swords over chain axes and use dark matter crystal turn 1 for propperly efficient screen clearing.

All is dust is at least as useful as 1' extra movement. As others said it comes up surprisingly often, it's a lifesaver vs geenstealers and acolytes.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Scarab Occult have never really impressed me on the table, but I find it's because they can't make it to melee (and when they do they pack 2 S4/D1 attacks each which doesn't scare anyone) and don't do a whole lot shooting, again due to S4/D1. They're an expensive way to keep chaff off one objective that get pounded off the table quickly as soon as a Knight or a Russ decides to glance in their direction.

Bumping them to a built-in 4++ would probably do a lot more to help them without needing to write much extra text.

I thought they had a 4++ standard. I'd be totally for that.

However, regarding my comment on bespoke powers, what are people's thoughts on that? Rather than just being expensive bodyguards for a lame smite, the embedded Sorcerers should be buffers to their squads. 1 range offensive, 1 melee offensive, 1 range defensive, and 1 melee defensive that they can cast without the worry for the "1 attempt at a power". I already have a few sample ideas to share on that one.

 small_gods wrote:
Scarab Occult are absolutely fine for their points cost. I run a unit of ten all the time and have used them successfully in tournaments etc. They are by far the best way to kill 30 boyz/turn or run through abberents, talos and other tough 7 or less units. For 8 extra points vs chaos termies you get -2 AP bolters, the ability to take hellfire missle racks, power swords over chain axes and use dark matter crystal turn 1 for propperly efficient screen clearing.

All is dust is at least as useful as 1' extra movement. As others said it comes up surprisingly often, it's a lifesaver vs geenstealers and acolytes.

If "All is dust" was as useful as 1" extra movement then it shouldn't cost more. Later on you can explain how having power swords (4pts) over chainaxes (1pt) is a bonus, how having no other option for melee weapons is a bonus and how swords help you kill orks better than chainaxes do. "For an extra 8 points more you get the ability to take hellyfire racks". First, 8 EXTRA points per model are a lot of points. Also, you don't get the racks unless you pay 15 extra on top of that, and please for the love of tzeentch do not try to present it as if scarabs have more weapon options than chaos terminators. also explain to me how scarabs are in any way better for dealing with talos than normal terminators which have the exactly same defence only they can fit 6 guys to the 5 scarabs. Finally, the DMC is an artifact, it should not be factored in the cost of units. Because if you use DMC on the scarabs then you're not using it on the tzaangors. Would that mean tzaangors would be made cheaper? No, I don't think so either.

I have also played scarabs extensively in tournaments and in friendly games. Do you know what comes up surprisingly often in my games? Overcharged plasmas with reroll auras, rokkit launchas, hive guards, dark reapers, butcher cannons and many others. If you are taking scarabs in tournaments and your opponents are charging stealers against them, then I would challenge the power level of your tournaments honestly.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 small_gods wrote:
Scarab Occult are absolutely fine for their points cost. I run a unit of ten all the time and have used them successfully in tournaments etc. They are by far the best way to kill 30 boyz/turn or run through abberents, talos and other tough 7 or less units. For 8 extra points vs chaos termies you get -2 AP bolters, the ability to take hellfire missle racks, power swords over chain axes and use dark matter crystal turn 1 for propperly efficient screen clearing.

All is dust is at least as useful as 1' extra movement. As others said it comes up surprisingly often, it's a lifesaver vs geenstealers and acolytes.

If "All is dust" was as useful as 1" extra movement then it shouldn't cost more. Later on you can explain how having power swords (4pts) over chainaxes (1pt) is a bonus, how having no other option for melee weapons is a bonus and how swords help you kill orks better than chainaxes do. "For an extra 8 points more you get the ability to take hellyfire racks". First, 8 EXTRA points per model are a lot of points. Also, you don't get the racks unless you pay 15 extra on top of that, and please for the love of tzeentch do not try to present it as if scarabs have more weapon options than chaos terminators. also explain to me how scarabs are in any way better for dealing with talos than normal terminators which have the exactly same defence only they can fit 6 guys to the 5 scarabs. Finally, the DMC is an artifact, it should not be factored in the cost of units. Because if you use DMC on the scarabs then you're not using it on the tzaangors. Would that mean tzaangors would be made cheaper? No, I don't think so either.

I have also played scarabs extensively in tournaments and in friendly games. Do you know what comes up surprisingly often in my games? Overcharged plasmas with reroll auras, rokkit launchas, hive guards, dark reapers, butcher cannons and many others. If you are taking scarabs in tournaments and your opponents are charging stealers against them, then I would challenge the power level of your tournaments honestly.

I think you conveniently skipped over -2AP bolters there, power sword vs chain axe 3 points. -2AP combi bolters 5 points. That means a guardsman which crop up from in hoardes 30-120 all the time get a 5+ save vs normal bolters. Also the case for Orks that pop prepared positions.

I don't give people better options with units to charge with stealers because I stick a 30 man blob of miasma plaguebearers up front that dont care about AP and suddenly those Kraken genestealers are swatting at nothing.

I play at lot of different tournaments, many of which are hugely competitive and I always place top half or better. If you're having trouble getting to those reapers etc (which incidently die much easier to kill with a -2AP combi bolter when they are in cover), then you hide them out of LoS until you aren't screened out 24" which is a feat in itself.

In fact if we take dark reapers as an example, I can shoot a unit of SoTs at them in cover with no buffs and kill 9 of them firing 10 chaos termies with combi bolters and endless cacophony only kills 6 and costs 2CP. All other buffs are availblt to both units.

If you're playing against Ynari cheese then holdong them back until they are useful is also a worthwhile tactic. Just because you can't make them work doesn't mean they are worthless.

Fundamentally I would say that 1 roll with modifiers is smoother game design than 2 rolls.

I do think that this modifier is applied to the wrong stat. The thousand sons have standard power armour, but are tough because of what the rubric did to their bodies.
Therefore I think the -1 should be applied to the wound roll rather than the armour save roll and this would not be obsoleted by cover.

 small_gods wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 small_gods wrote:
Scarab Occult are absolutely fine for their points cost. I run a unit of ten all the time and have used them successfully in tournaments etc. They are by far the best way to kill 30 boyz/turn or run through abberents, talos and other tough 7 or less units. For 8 extra points vs chaos termies you get -2 AP bolters, the ability to take hellfire missle racks, power swords over chain axes and use dark matter crystal turn 1 for propperly efficient screen clearing.

All is dust is at least as useful as 1' extra movement. As others said it comes up surprisingly often, it's a lifesaver vs geenstealers and acolytes.

If "All is dust" was as useful as 1" extra movement then it shouldn't cost more. Later on you can explain how having power swords (4pts) over chainaxes (1pt) is a bonus, how having no other option for melee weapons is a bonus and how swords help you kill orks better than chainaxes do. "For an extra 8 points more you get the ability to take hellyfire racks". First, 8 EXTRA points per model are a lot of points. Also, you don't get the racks unless you pay 15 extra on top of that, and please for the love of tzeentch do not try to present it as if scarabs have more weapon options than chaos terminators. also explain to me how scarabs are in any way better for dealing with talos than normal terminators which have the exactly same defence only they can fit 6 guys to the 5 scarabs. Finally, the DMC is an artifact, it should not be factored in the cost of units. Because if you use DMC on the scarabs then you're not using it on the tzaangors. Would that mean tzaangors would be made cheaper? No, I don't think so either.

I have also played scarabs extensively in tournaments and in friendly games. Do you know what comes up surprisingly often in my games? Overcharged plasmas with reroll auras, rokkit launchas, hive guards, dark reapers, butcher cannons and many others. If you are taking scarabs in tournaments and your opponents are charging stealers against them, then I would challenge the power level of your tournaments honestly.

I think you conveniently skipped over -2AP bolters there, power sword vs chain axe 3 points. -2AP combi bolters 5 points. That means a guardsman which crop up from in hoardes 30-120 all the time get a 5+ save vs normal bolters. Also the case for Orks that pop prepared positions.

I don't give people better options with units to charge with stealers because I stick a 30 man blob of miasma plaguebearers up front that dont care about AP and suddenly those Kraken genestealers are swatting at nothing.

I play at lot of different tournaments, many of which are hugely competitive and I always place top half or better. If you're having trouble getting to those reapers etc (which incidently die much easier to kill with a -2AP combi bolter when they are in cover), then you hide them out of LoS until you aren't screened out 24" which is a feat in itself.

In fact if we take dark reapers as an example, I can shoot a unit of SoTs at them in cover with no buffs and kill 9 of them firing 10 chaos termies with combi bolters and endless cacophony only kills 6 and costs 2CP. All other buffs are availblt to both units.

If you're playing against Ynari cheese then holdong them back until they are useful is also a worthwhile tactic. Just because you can't make them work doesn't mean they are worthless.

I mentioned ap-2 bolters in my previous post. The problem is, ap-2 is much less worth in an army that has about a million other ways to ignore armor anyways. For each scarab you can bring two rubrics, so you could play a 20 man rubric squad that has the same damage output, you can also DMC them and "All is dust" is really worth it on them, practically making them as tough as the terminators themselves, all while filling a troop slot on top of it. The problem with terminators of any kind is always their cost, never their damage output. A second problem is that they are designed to be attrition based units but they just don't survive that long. 5++ is like nothing, seeing as GW seems to slap it for free to everyone and their mother these days. Ynnari is one of the examples. All of the armies have a way of quickly disposing off terminators, and the platforms where these ways hang are many times more cost efficient than the terminators themselves. Your unit of 10 scarabs is 420 pts. That's Magnus points right there. This is no small investment. Unit like that should be decimating the opponents left and right. Only they don't. And holding back 420 pts of my list just because the opponent brought their best unit on the table does not really count as a win for me. And reapers don't need Ynnari to play fire and fade, they can just do it and you will never see them to shoot at them. In the very end, for 420 pts you can field 70+ tzaangors and make your own horde against the enemy horde.

The base of the problem still exists: All terminators are bad in this edition. However, being able to play them cheap kind of mitigates the issue. That's why people in this forum discuss the chainaxe terminators and why there's only two chainaxes in the box and how are they gonna find more, yet nobody discusses how to field more scarabs, but instead "how to fix them".

There's only one Chainaxe I think.

I think it's missing the point to say that you can field 70 tzangoors. Yes they are great but you have to make an 8' charge which isn't easy. You have to get as many as possible in combat as possible and you're usually squeezing just over half of them into combat. You take overwatch and that hurts against deathwatch, tau, orks etc. It's easier to screen out 12" to stop your juicy units from being charged, than screen 24" rapid firing bolters. Finally you loose lots to morale, even throwing CP at it.

Not that throwing Tzaangors or Bloodletters at screens is a bad gameplan it's just not as clearcut as you make out.

Thousand sons and chaos in general have lots of strong mele units and smite spam that are useless if they're being thrown into guardsman, grots, swarms of nidz etc.

Look at thousand sons lists on http://bloodofkittens.com/8th-edition-top-army-list-compendium/

SOTs pop up in lots of the lists. I think since bolter drill dropped you'll see a lot more of them.

Bolter Drill has definitely piqued my interest in SoT again, but I keep remembering the things topaxygouroun are saying...

I would love All is Dust to be something that is MORE effective on SoT because even with Bolter Drill I find Rubrics more appealing, (due to obsec, cheaper, bigger move)

Since the topic is on All is Dust, I would propose something that caps AP at -2 from any weapon type. I think this would be better towards separating the Rubric vs. SoT as this rule would make the SoT more tanky relative to the Rubric. This would be an effective 4++ to the SoT (3++ in cover), and 4++ in cover for the Rubrics.

Maybe change it to a -1 penalty to Wound rolls against 1D weapons? Most 1D weapons are 0 AP, and this gives better results than a bonus to Toughness in most cases ( think it’d be around equal to +2 Toughness most of the time?)

Tbh I think All is Dust is fine, not always the most useful on SOTs but still comes in from time to time. As others have said a 4++ wouldn't go amiss, although I think GW are loathed to give out a 3++ (with glamour) unless you are deathwatch. Then it's apparently half the price of a power sword!

Rubric Marines in Cover with All is Dust...

I saw a Stormtroopers player simply repack his army in a local Tournament before the first turn - his Hotshot Lasgun heavy army was going to do significantly less punching that usual...

I'm ok with all us dust as it is in the sense of not adding anything for weapons ap-. A 2+ save is nice to have in the first place, and it helps against anything with an ap.

However....I have noticed that as this edition is getting older and more codex's come out with the expected power creep, there have been an increase of Damage 1+/random damage weapons. Scarabs are an elite 2 wound unit that just begs for damage 1+. I hardly see a game where these guys do get to use all is dust.

I would much prefer all is dust take a page from the old days and have the following: instead of being ignored on damage 1+, it is ignored on strength 8+. As well as taking advantage of a perfect opportunity to fit the narrative by becoming the slow marching ghosts that prefer to fight at range and being able to move and fire rapid fire while counting as not having moved. Thus beta bolter would be perfect for these guys.

If the above was implemented then the only redundant rules for scarabs would me ap- weapons and beta bolter terminator armor and all is dust. In this instance I would just recommend a slight reduction in pts.

A little less important, but I wish the scarab swords had unique stats instead of just being power swords. Not necessary but would be fun. Would make them stand out as a unit and be better in combat.