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So right now most tau lists are taking 20+ drones to protect their units, but these drones are able to hide out of LOS while still doing their job completely fine. I propose that drones get the grot treatment by having to be inbetween the attacking and defending models. This nerfs them heavily as an all-around defensive tool, as they need to be out in the open more, and makes them more or less impossible to use in melee.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





Wishing I was back at the South Atlantic, closer to ice than the sun

I would disagree simply on the basis that the Tau are the only codex in which their workhorse HQ choice is limited to one per detachment. There has to be some way of keeping them alive. If you wish to limit all other armies to 1 type of hq per detachment then abuses of saviour protocols can then be addressed.

Cheers

Andrew

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Best definition of the word Battleship?
Mr Nobody wrote:
Does a canoe with a machine gun count?
 
   
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 AndrewC wrote:
I would disagree simply on the basis that the Tau are the only codex in which their workhorse HQ choice is limited to one per detachment. There has to be some way of keeping them alive. If you wish to limit all other armies to 1 type of hq per detachment then abuses of saviour protocols can then be addressed.

Cheers

Andrew


I'm not sure I follow your logic, my good fellow. Regardless of how many crisis commanders a tau player takes, he can still hide characters behind screening units (including drones) just as well as everyone else can. Even with the proposed nerf, he'd still be even easier to protect than most characters in the game because he'd be screenable as per normal PLUS he'd still benefit from the (hypothetically nerfed) savior protocols of the drones. You'd still be able to wrap him up in some drone buddies for protection. The proposed rule change would just make drones a bit more interactive than they are now.

I'm the first person to handwaive something as being an abstraction, but it is a bit annoying when a suit is being protected by a swarm of drones floating on the opposite side of him from my would-be assassination unit. I think I'm probably in favor of the OP's suggestion. I don't think it's particularly necessary (I can generally clear through the drones by shooting my chaff clearers first), but it would allow for more interesting decision making from time to time.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
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I forgot my first account wrote:
...I propose that drones get the grot treatment by having to be inbetween the attacking and defending models...


Define this precisely enough to use in a tournament in under a paragraph.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
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"If a unit with the DRONE keyword is closer to the model firing than the unit being fired at each successful wound roll may be transferred to a drone unit within 6 inches of the target unit on a 2+"

That should roughly work correct? Maybe add in infantry? Or just let it work on vehicles as well, give those some love.
   
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Mississippi

Savior Protocols: If this unit is interposed between one or more attacking enemy models and a defending friendly unit, you may convert any wounds that the friendly unit would suffer into an equal number of mortal wounds to this unit.

It never ends well 
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




 AnomanderRake wrote:
I forgot my first account wrote:
...I propose that drones get the grot treatment by having to be inbetween the attacking and defending models...


Define this precisely enough to use in a tournament in under a paragraph.


Page 127 – Stratagems, Grot Shields Change the rules text to read: ‘Use this Stratagem after a <Clan> Infantry unit from your army (excluding units comprised entirely of Gretchin models) has been hit by a ranged weapon. Until the end of the phase, you can roll a D6 each time an attack made with a ranged weapon wounds that unit if there is a friendly unit comprised entirely of <Clan> Gretchin Infantry models within 6" of it, and the Gretchin unit is closer to the attacking model than the target unit. On a 2+ one model of your choice in that Gretchin unit is slain and the attack sequence ends.’

Reworked for drones would be

"Roll a D6 each time an attack made with a weapon wounds that unit if there is a friendly unit comprised entirely of <SEPT> Battlesuits or Infantry models within 3" of it, and the Drone unit is closer to the attacking model than the target unit. On a 2+ one model of your choice in that Drone unit suffers a mortal wound and the attack sequence ends."

   
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Never Forget Isstvan!






They need to stop converting a lazcannon hit into a single mortal wound for one. That's unlike any other bodyguard rule and its a bit obscene when they FNP it after.


Either they take all the dmg from multi-dmg weapons, or they get slain outright without the FNP.

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Longtime Dakkanaut




Really those suggestions are terrible for balance.

Tau as a codex only really works competatively because of saviour protocols.

Also if your struggling to kill a unit with T4 Sv4+ and Ld6 then the problem isn't with the Tau list, look at your own list first.

Drones arn't charictors are not cheap, also the way Tau drones work makes perfect sense in relation to the fluff descriptions of them.

Drones arn't troops, and certainly are NOT 3ppm why should they be forced to work like a 3ppm troop unit?
   
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Ice_can wrote:
Really those suggestions are terrible for balance.

Tau as a codex only really works competatively because of saviour protocols.

Also if your struggling to kill a unit with T4 Sv4+ and Ld6 then the problem isn't with the Tau list, look at your own list first.

Drones arn't charictors are not cheap, also the way Tau drones work makes perfect sense in relation to the fluff descriptions of them.

Drones arn't troops, and certainly are NOT 3ppm why should they be forced to work like a 3ppm troop unit?


No one struggles to kill regular drones. People struggle to kill shield drones that hide out of LOS but can still tank shots. Even if you could directly shoot at them, which in most game you won't have LOS, they have a 4++, 5+++, LD9/10, and the Fly keyword. Forcing them to get out of a hiding hole via rules change would be welcomed since not all armies have non-LOS weapons

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change it so that:
1. if there is a drone between the firing model and the target they may intercept the shot or within 3" of the target model.
2. after you gather any successful hits (before rolling to wound) you may allocate 1 hit per drone, resolve those attacks against the drones toughness and saves, removing models if dead, if the drones are still alive, you may continually allocate successful hits against them until there is no longer any drones between the attacking models and the Tau character/unit.

Praise the Omnissiah

About 4k of .

Imperial Knights (Valiant, Warden & Armigers)

Some Misc. Imperium units etc. Assassins...

About 2k of  
   
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London

Just prevent them nullifying all damage with a single save and they should be a lot more manageable.
   
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Tactics: aim your heavy hitters on the drones and your pea shooters at the battlesuits.

Result:
1. Drones cannot take Savior Protocols against fellow drones. They now die a horrible death.
2. Battlesuits now must think hard about whether to roll against their own save or to pass a wound from a pea shooter onto a drone. Either way, if the battle suit fails a save from a pea shooter, it takes a psychological toll from the player. If the wound is passed over the drone dies a horrible, unnecessary death.

Playing against drones are completely manageable.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/09 20:42:09


 
   
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NY

It is challenging to find the exact point where drones aren't so good as to warrant spam, but also worth taking at all. From what I've heard it's mostly an issue with ITC house rules which turn ruins into imaginary LOS blockers.

The base rules don't give drones infantry which makes them less likely to get cover, and most GW terrain doesn't block LOS for large units. So although this is a situation in some instances, even outside of ITC, it should be solvable with positioning.

I suppose drones could go down to T3 if there were a systemic problem with them, or up to 12pts again, but players spending hundreds of points on models that don't attack can't be the worst thing ever.

To the proposed wordings, please don't change multiple variables at once. These suggestions are dissimilar to what savior protocols do.
   
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Not all ruins. Just some ruins. Other ruins remain only cover.
   
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Norn Queen






You do realise the downside of drones is they bleed victory points like it's going out of style, right?
   
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I would say the best way to balance them is to put them back as part of the unit. Only the drones taken with a unit can tank shots for them. The drone can either be allocated a shot to make the save or it has a bodyguard rule where it takes a mortal wound for each wound the suit takes. This way drones don't bleed victory points but they can only protect the unit they came with.
   
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ComradeRed1308 wrote:
I would say the best way to balance them is to put them back as part of the unit. Only the drones taken with a unit can tank shots for them. The drone can either be allocated a shot to make the save or it has a bodyguard rule where it takes a mortal wound for each wound the suit takes. This way drones don't bleed victory points but they can only protect the unit they came with.
It would be interesting if shield drones can only be taken as a part of a unit. Gun/marker drones being able to intercept hits is a bit silly IMO, especially coming from when in the past, riptides needed to take a morale test because they lost their drone toys.

Gun drones and marker drones need to stay as they are. If you ask me, they should be separate datasheets but I'm not the one who makes the rules.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/10 19:19:45


 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





Wishing I was back at the South Atlantic, closer to ice than the sun

I disagree with the idea that the drones take a mortal wound for each wound inflicted. It makes saviour protocols useless. Making SP a poorer relative to bodyguards is not the answer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I do agree that the idea of a riptides with SP is out of step. A monstrous creature should not be protected in such a manner.

SP works because the bodyguard rules work on a completely dissimilar way. Every wounding hit that makes it to the battlesuit, the player has to make the decision of transferring before the knowledge of saves. A wounding hit against anyone else has the comfort of a save, probably invulnerable, then a FNP, and possibly a second FNP on the bodyguard. Tau have 1 5up FNP that's it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/10 19:55:33


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Best definition of the word Battleship?
Mr Nobody wrote:
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That would be incorrect. Most bodyguard units (such as grot shields and GSC along with Savior protocols) have to check to pass off the wound before any saves are made.

The only ones that let you take a save before you pass them off out right kill the model you pass them off too with no further saves taken.

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 Eihnlazer wrote:
That would be incorrect. Most bodyguard units (such as grot shields and GSC along with Savior protocols) have to check to pass off the wound before any saves are made.

The only ones that let you take a save before you pass them off out right kill the model you pass them off too with no further saves taken.
You wot mate? The opposite is true. Most bodyguards (Grot Shields included, check the errata), roll for each point of damage after saves are taken. Savior Protocols is the anomaly, not the norm, and the GSC rule LITERALLY SAYS "Each time you fail a saving throw".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/11 18:15:23


 
   
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 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Eihnlazer wrote:
That would be incorrect. Most bodyguard units (such as grot shields and GSC along with Savior protocols) have to check to pass off the wound before any saves are made.

The only ones that let you take a save before you pass them off out right kill the model you pass them off too with no further saves taken.
You wot mate? The opposite is true. Most bodyguards (Grot Shields included, check the errata), roll for each point of damage after saves are taken. Savior Protocols is the anomaly, not the norm, and the GSC rule LITERALLY SAYS "Each time you fail a saving throw".


The grot shield errata changed it so grots act similarly to drones, not the opposite.

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 Not3GrotsInATrenchcoat wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Eihnlazer wrote:
That would be incorrect. Most bodyguard units (such as grot shields and GSC along with Savior protocols) have to check to pass off the wound before any saves are made.

The only ones that let you take a save before you pass them off out right kill the model you pass them off too with no further saves taken.
You wot mate? The opposite is true. Most bodyguards (Grot Shields included, check the errata), roll for each point of damage after saves are taken. Savior Protocols is the anomaly, not the norm, and the GSC rule LITERALLY SAYS "Each time you fail a saving throw".


The grot shield errata changed it so grots act similarly to drones, not the opposite.
Yup. I did an oopsie poopsie there. My bad. It was originally a bodyguard and got changed to a drone.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/11 19:00:19


 
   
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 skchsan wrote:
Tactics: aim your heavy hitters on the drones and your pea shooters at the battlesuits.


This right here. If you can't directly fire into the drones, fire into the battlesuits with infantry firepower. You'll either kill drones, which is what you want, or wound the battlesuit, which you also want to do. Maybe if Tau stuff was T8 this might be an issue, but Tau pretty much caps out at T7 and lasguns hurt Crisis Commanders on 5+.

   
 
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