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So I keep getting really annoyed that despite guardian spears being described as "Elegant and deadly, it is a potent and unique design incorporating a Power Blade and a highly advanced integrated Bolter weapon" (Among other descriptions of them being essentially bolters)they lack the bolter keyword so I cannot take advantage of the new bolter rules. Any word from gw about them clarifying this?
People have been making similar comments since the rule first came about. I think it's better to think of it not as a bolter rule but as a Space Marine rule. It may have helped if they didn't include "bolter" in the rule name, but here we are.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Guardians Spears are bolters, and Bolter Discipline doesn't only depend on being a bolter. If it did, Sisters would also have it.
However, it only applies to Astartes. Custodes are not Astartes, and neither are Sisters, and both apparently don't practice fire discipline.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/05/01 20:04:50
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Custodes did not need the buff. if the had applied it to the golden bananas they would have ended up makign it a weaker rule or not at all. Maybe sisters will get something similar but i have a pretty big custodes aremy and imo... they don't need it.
chaselaporte wrote: So I keep getting really annoyed that despite guardian spears being described as "Elegant and deadly, it is a potent and unique design incorporating a Power Blade and a highly advanced integrated Bolter weapon" (Among other descriptions of them being essentially bolters)they lack the bolter keyword so I cannot take advantage of the new bolter rules. Any word from gw about them clarifying this?
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Bolter Discipline was not made for your army, it was made in an attempt to fix the glaring issues with Marine units. Custodians are very viable and one of the deadliest CC units in the whole game, I don't really thing you need the rule....
chaselaporte wrote: So I keep getting really annoyed that despite guardian spears being described as "Elegant and deadly, it is a potent and unique design incorporating a Power Blade and a highly advanced integrated Bolter weapon" (Among other descriptions of them being essentially bolters)they lack the bolter keyword so I cannot take advantage of the new bolter rules. Any word from gw about them clarifying this?
|
Bolter Discipline was not made for your army, it was made in an attempt to fix the glaring issues with Marine units. Custodians are very viable and one of the deadliest CC units in the whole game, I don't really thing you need the rule....
Agreed.
Essentially GW is out of design space to fix marines because they have decided to make layers and layers of even more super marines. Their only options at this point at to make vanilla marines and CSM stronger via an ability or special rule (it can't be a stat increase or they will just become custodians) OR lower their points. They decided on a special rule. Custodian bikers with Astartes bolter rule would make the game unplayable. LOL.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
chaselaporte wrote: So I keep getting really annoyed that despite guardian spears being described as "Elegant and deadly, it is a potent and unique design incorporating a Power Blade and a highly advanced integrated Bolter weapon" (Among other descriptions of them being essentially bolters)they lack the bolter keyword so I cannot take advantage of the new bolter rules. Any word from gw about them clarifying this?
|
Bolter Discipline was not made for your army, it was made in an attempt to fix the glaring issues with Marine units. Custodians are very viable and one of the deadliest CC units in the whole game, I don't really thing you need the rule....
Agreed.
Essentially GW is out of design space to fix marines because they have decided to make layers and layers of even more super marines. Their only options at this point at to make vanilla marines and CSM stronger via an ability or special rule (it can't be a stat increase or they will just become custodians) OR lower their points. They decided on a special rule. Custodian bikers with Astartes bolter rule would make the game unplayable. LOL.
Not to mention D2 weapon gun lines of Custodian Guard. It's amazing how they truly aren't winning more pure tournaments.
chaselaporte wrote: So I keep getting really annoyed that despite guardian spears being described as "Elegant and deadly, it is a potent and unique design incorporating a Power Blade and a highly advanced integrated Bolter weapon" (Among other descriptions of them being essentially bolters)they lack the bolter keyword so I cannot take advantage of the new bolter rules. Any word from gw about them clarifying this?
|
Bolter Discipline was not made for your army, it was made in an attempt to fix the glaring issues with Marine units. Custodians are very viable and one of the deadliest CC units in the whole game, I don't really thing you need the rule....
Agreed.
Essentially GW is out of design space to fix marines because they have decided to make layers and layers of even more super marines. Their only options at this point at to make vanilla marines and CSM stronger via an ability or special rule (it can't be a stat increase or they will just become custodians) OR lower their points. They decided on a special rule. Custodian bikers with Astartes bolter rule would make the game unplayable. LOL.
Not to mention D2 weapon gun lines of Custodian Guard. It's amazing how they truly aren't winning more pure tournaments.
Lack of CP, general vulnerability.
I usually play my Custodes paired with my Sisters of Battle, to give protection for psychic powers, and my Guard, to give excellent kill-that-now ability, capture objectives, and CP.
My experience has been that my Custodes are very vulnerable to psychic effects, and the 2D Guardians Spears are interesting, but frequently wasted against light troops.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/01 20:46:30
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
chaselaporte wrote: So I keep getting really annoyed that despite guardian spears being described as "Elegant and deadly, it is a potent and unique design incorporating a Power Blade and a highly advanced integrated Bolter weapon" (Among other descriptions of them being essentially bolters)they lack the bolter keyword so I cannot take advantage of the new bolter rules. Any word from gw about them clarifying this?
|
Bolter Discipline was not made for your army, it was made in an attempt to fix the glaring issues with Marine units. Custodians are very viable and one of the deadliest CC units in the whole game, I don't really thing you need the rule....
Agreed.
Essentially GW is out of design space to fix marines because they have decided to make layers and layers of even more super marines. Their only options at this point at to make vanilla marines and CSM stronger via an ability or special rule (it can't be a stat increase or they will just become custodians) OR lower their points. They decided on a special rule. Custodian bikers with Astartes bolter rule would make the game unplayable. LOL.
Having seen Custodes infantry play on my local tables dozens of times, I keep saying Custodians (in everything by CC) are how Marines should be playing. Tough as gak to kill, and twice as deadly.
WARHAMMER 40,000 UPDATE – APRIL 2019 wrote:Finally, we have also received a lot of questions asking whether the Bolter Discipline ability should also apply to other
boltgun-wielding warriors of the Imperium, notably the Adeptus Custodes and Adepta Sororitas. For clarity, the bolter
discipline rule was not intended to make all boltguns better, but rather make the warriors of the Adeptus (and Heretic)
Astartes who wielded them better. As a result, we are not adding the Bolter Discipline ability to units in other factions.
chaselaporte wrote: So I keep getting really annoyed that despite guardian spears being described as "Elegant and deadly, it is a potent and unique design incorporating a Power Blade and a highly advanced integrated Bolter weapon" (Among other descriptions of them being essentially bolters)they lack the bolter keyword so I cannot take advantage of the new bolter rules. Any word from gw about them clarifying this?
|
Bolter Discipline was not made for your army, it was made in an attempt to fix the glaring issues with Marine units. Custodians are very viable and one of the deadliest CC units in the whole game, I don't really thing you need the rule....
Agreed.
Essentially GW is out of design space to fix marines because they have decided to make layers and layers of even more super marines. Their only options at this point at to make vanilla marines and CSM stronger via an ability or special rule (it can't be a stat increase or they will just become custodians) OR lower their points. They decided on a special rule. Custodian bikers with Astartes bolter rule would make the game unplayable. LOL.
Having seen Custodes infantry play on my local tables dozens of times, I keep saying Custodians (in everything by CC) are how Marines should be playing. Tough as gak to kill, and twice as deadly.
I feel the opposite. I definitely don't think it's what I would want out of Marines in terms of playstyle and themes.
I think the Marines should be "tactical", "specialist", and "elite", not a giant slab of meat made of super-awesomeness that hits things until it's dead. I actually really like the Shadowspear marines, they renewed my interest in my Space Wolves, because the silly level of tacticool commando they've got going just really appealed to me and synchornized almost exactly with the themes I generally associate with Space Marines and turned it up to the point of humor in 40k fashion. [The exception is the suppressors, I don't think flying and heavy weapons goes together very well use-wise or theme-wise]. Marine units should have fancy gear and the ability to be equipped different ways to confront different threats. In addition, they should be able to concentrate force easily, with the ability to achieve high regional power density to secure objectives and destroy specific targets, with the weakness of being exposed in other places. I feel like marines should be "Ah! I have a unit that does exactly that!" not "This one unit is awesome and beats everything's face!"
That said, the problem with space marines in their design space shouldn't be solved with random special rules to make them more-special-badass. Really, a 2 point reduction would do [and a revisit and re-stating of their tanks, but that's another problem]
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/01 21:02:18
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
chaselaporte wrote: So I keep getting really annoyed that despite guardian spears being described as "Elegant and deadly, it is a potent and unique design incorporating a Power Blade and a highly advanced integrated Bolter weapon" (Among other descriptions of them being essentially bolters)they lack the bolter keyword so I cannot take advantage of the new bolter rules. Any word from gw about them clarifying this?
|
Bolter Discipline was not made for your army, it was made in an attempt to fix the glaring issues with Marine units. Custodians are very viable and one of the deadliest CC units in the whole game, I don't really thing you need the rule....
Agreed.
Essentially GW is out of design space to fix marines because they have decided to make layers and layers of even more super marines. Their only options at this point at to make vanilla marines and CSM stronger via an ability or special rule (it can't be a stat increase or they will just become custodians) OR lower their points. They decided on a special rule. Custodian bikers with Astartes bolter rule would make the game unplayable. LOL.
Having seen Custodes infantry play on my local tables dozens of times, I keep saying Custodians (in everything by CC) are how Marines should be playing. Tough as gak to kill, and twice as deadly.
I feel the opposite. I definitely don't think it's what I would want out of Marines in terms of playstyle and themes.
I think the Marines should be "tactical", "specialist", and "elite", not a giant slab of meat made of super-awesomeness that hits things until it's dead. I actually really like the Shadowspear marines, they renewed my interest in my Space Wolves, because the silly level of tacticool commando they've got going just really appealed to me and synchornized almost exactly with the themes I generally associate with Space Marines and turned it up to the point of humor in 40k fashion. [The exception is the suppressors, I don't think flying and heavy weapons goes together very well use-wise or theme-wise]. Marine units should have fancy gear and the ability to be equipped different ways to confront different threats. In addition, they should be able to concentrate force easily, with the ability to achieve high regional power density to secure objectives and destroy specific targets, with the weakness of being exposed in other places. I feel like marines should be "Ah! I have a unit that does exactly that!" not "This one unit is awesome and beats everything's face!"
That said, the problem with space marines in their design space shouldn't be solved with random special rules to make them more-special-badass. Really, a 2 point reduction would do [and a revisit and re-stating of their tanks, but that's another problem]
I definitely agree with most of that sentiment, although I'd point to the past for a bit of a different direction. The way ATSKNF used to work alongside normal morale rules, or how Leadership was used for fire discipline in 4th edition (you had to take a Ld test to shoot something not-the-closest, and Marine Captains gave their Ld. to every marine under their command), or how technology was distributed in 2nd edition (marine Heavy Weapons all had Targeters, so they were a lot more accurate than most other armies). I prefer Marines who fight smart and disciplined, not rah-rah-punchy-watch-me-take-bullets, which seems to be the Primaris and Custodes thing.
Edit:
Another one; For some time (either 4th or 5th) Marines had Frag and Krak grenades by default, and every one in the squad could attack vehicles with them in CC. So if basic Tacticals got to your tank, they'd plant bombs all over it and often take it out. That felt awesome. I prefer elite troops who plant bombs on vehicles, rather than swing spears at them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/01 22:58:56
chaselaporte wrote: So I keep getting really annoyed that despite guardian spears being described as "Elegant and deadly, it is a potent and unique design incorporating a Power Blade and a highly advanced integrated Bolter weapon" (Among other descriptions of them being essentially bolters)they lack the bolter keyword so I cannot take advantage of the new bolter rules. Any word from gw about them clarifying this?
|
Bolter Discipline was not made for your army, it was made in an attempt to fix the glaring issues with Marine units. Custodians are very viable and one of the deadliest CC units in the whole game, I don't really thing you need the rule....
Agreed.
Essentially GW is out of design space to fix marines because they have decided to make layers and layers of even more super marines. Their only options at this point at to make vanilla marines and CSM stronger via an ability or special rule (it can't be a stat increase or they will just become custodians) OR lower their points. They decided on a special rule. Custodian bikers with Astartes bolter rule would make the game unplayable. LOL.
Having seen Custodes infantry play on my local tables dozens of times, I keep saying Custodians (in everything by CC) are how Marines should be playing. Tough as gak to kill, and twice as deadly.
I feel the opposite. I definitely don't think it's what I would want out of Marines in terms of playstyle and themes.
I think the Marines should be "tactical", "specialist", and "elite", not a giant slab of meat made of super-awesomeness that hits things until it's dead. I actually really like the Shadowspear marines, they renewed my interest in my Space Wolves, because the silly level of tacticool commando they've got going just really appealed to me and synchornized almost exactly with the themes I generally associate with Space Marines and turned it up to the point of humor in 40k fashion. [The exception is the suppressors, I don't think flying and heavy weapons goes together very well use-wise or theme-wise]. Marine units should have fancy gear and the ability to be equipped different ways to confront different threats. In addition, they should be able to concentrate force easily, with the ability to achieve high regional power density to secure objectives and destroy specific targets, with the weakness of being exposed in other places. I feel like marines should be "Ah! I have a unit that does exactly that!" not "This one unit is awesome and beats everything's face!"
That said, the problem with space marines in their design space shouldn't be solved with random special rules to make them more-special-badass. Really, a 2 point reduction would do [and a revisit and re-stating of their tanks, but that's another problem]
I definitely agree with most of that sentiment, although I'd point to the past for a bit of a different direction. The way ATSKNF used to work alongside normal morale rules, or how Leadership was used for fire discipline in 4th edition (you had to take a Ld test to shoot something not-the-closest, and Marine Captains gave their Ld. to every marine under their command), or how technology was distributed in 2nd edition (marine Heavy Weapons all had Targeters, so they were a lot more accurate than most other armies). I prefer Marines who fight smart and disciplined, not rah-rah-punchy-watch-me-take-bullets, which seems to be the Primaris and Custodes thing.
Edit:
Another one; For some time (either 4th or 5th) Marines had Frag and Krak grenades by default, and every one in the squad could attack vehicles with them in CC. So if basic Tacticals got to your tank, they'd plant bombs all over it and often take it out. That felt awesome. I prefer elite troops who plant bombs on vehicles, rather than swing spears at them.
Primaris seem pretty down on the whole tactical-tacticool thing; with focused squads that are good at specialized tasks, and the new Vanguard marines.
Anyway, yeah, I do wish all the infantry could throw grenades. My favorite RTS is Blitzkrieg II, and the infantry attacking tanks in that game with grenades is something I've always wanted to do with my Guardsmen.
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Maybe the people in charge of rules are purists to the original weapons Custodes carried which were not bolters.
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
Isn't the Marine Bolters being better just a balance change? And ignoring a bit of fluff you can explain away anyway to improce balance is a good thing right? Someone tell me why this is so bad.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
pm713 wrote: Isn't the Marine Bolters being better just a balance change? And ignoring a bit of fluff you can explain away anyway to improce balance is a good thing right? Someone tell me why this is so bad.
I'm not against the rule, I collect SW's as well, its the fluff I don't like. All I want to GW is to be consistent, they have ruined the lore. 40k lore is a joke now.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/02 00:53:28
NinthMusketeer wrote: When was it not a joke? Warhammer lore has always been pretty silly and OTT in its own way.
Its always had a comical side, but now there has a been a vested interest in making it as realistic as it can be. What I mean as a joke is that there should be things that are sacrosanct, the Astartes should have remained, Primaris is a joke, same with the primarchs, they should have never come back especially the loyalists. Now I bet anything that Sanguinius will come back I bet the Emperor and Horus are going to come back now.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/02 02:17:42
the Astartes HAVE remained. the Primaris ARE Astartes, a new breed of them. As for Primarchs returning, there's no evidance Sanguinius or the Emperor will return let alone Horus (Horus is pretty much redundant given Abaddon TBH, anyone who wants to can just run Abaddon as Horus) GW's been pretty restrained on the Primarch front to the point where I think it's clear they're not in a hurry to give us new Primarchs anytime soon, although I'd expect to see Primaris versions of some beloved characters popping up. Adding new things to the lore doesn't ruin the old.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
The way I see it narrative wise is that Marines spend a greater percentage of their time practising with their bolt guns in squads, so they get this rule. Custodian's skill with their guns is represented by their BS, but they spend a greater amount of time training alone, for close combat.
Um, Custodians literally have the Blood Games, where they compete to the death with their weapons to find ways to improve. They are essentially the SSJ4 Humans. Space Marines are SSJ2s, and Deathwatch is SSJ3. Catachans are SSJB.
I sometimes look at situations like this as "would they do it" not "can they do it".
Custodes probably can "Bolter Discipline" but that's not their preferred tactic, so they DON'T. Or at least, not enough of the do for the rule to be justified.
With Sisters and Guard, it probably is a "Can't" situation though. It's impressive enough for them to use Bolter weapons at all.
7000 
