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Made in ie
Regular Dakkanaut





Hi there. I was just wondering about this, as most tourney lists posted don't tend to have any FW models. For instance, Leviathan dreads are pretty decent. As are Vultures and Strike Fighters. Yet, they don't seem to appear in tourney lists. Is that because most TOs frown on FW or is it simply that Codex stuff is more points efficient?
   
Made in ch
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





Banville wrote:
Hi there. I was just wondering about this, as most tourney lists posted don't tend to have any FW models. For instance, Leviathan dreads are pretty decent. As are Vultures and Strike Fighters. Yet, they don't seem to appear in tourney lists. Is that because most TOs frown on FW or is it simply that Codex stuff is more points efficient?


Most of the time codex stuff is more pts effective, also moreover most of the FW stuff can't pofit from traits or stratagems which is also a big part in terms off effectiveness.

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Tournaments can allow or disallow whatever they want. You have to check with the TO.



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Banning FW stuff is pretty common. But not as common as it was in 5ed and prior.

Also FW is absurdly expensive and really, really pain in the ass to assemble and paint, so many folks tries to avoid it and hate to be forced to take it to be competitive.
I have one FW kit for my SW army, and assembling it literally was my worst experience in this hobby. Hope I'll never be forced to get any more resin kits.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






All the big tournaments allow FW.

Local tournaments run by people who are jealous they cant afford it, or are tired of the lack of updated rules tend to ban FW models.


There are plenty of FW models that are just plain bad on the tabletop, plenty that don't have updated rules to put them in line with similar codex models, and plenty that even have rules that just plain don't work in 8th properly.


However, they mostly all look pretty good and some are quite a lot of fun to play with.


I find that instead of a blanket "ban all FW" (which is lazy), TO's could easily just look at other bigger tournaments that tend to know which units are a problem and pick and choose which they don't want to deal with.



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Fixture of Dakka




UK

As noted each tournament is unique, tough the bigger ones tend to be more open to FW whilst local level ones can be far more variable.

It should be noted FW is indeed more common and accepted today than in the past. I think partly because the game has evolved, but also because internet buying is far more common now so that there is far less of a barrier to entry. Don't forget back in the earlier days not everyone "trusted" buying online.

I'd also note that the price divide between GW and FW - at least in the UK market - has come down. In the past GW used to cap at around £35 for something like a Dreadnought or Dragon - whilst FW prices were still often up into the near or beyond £100 mark.
Today we've got a lot more GW models that are far higher in price so the FW stuff actually feels more affordable for many of the models (basically the non-knight/titan sized stuff)


Eg that FW Greater Demon of Slaanesh looked super expensive when it was 2-3 times the size just over £100 whilst the £30 metal one from GW was far smaller, but more affordable.

Today the GW one is way up into £85 and thus the price difference is far less. If you can bite the GW one the FW one is more easily within reach.



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Regular Dakkanaut




ETC did not allowed FW before, don`t know now.
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Here tournaments follow ETC style(and as such flowchart units are banned) but FW units are pretty much universally allowed.

Seeing they are generally just prettier models with worse rules than GW units no real reason to ban them unless you want to force people to take the more broken stuff.

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Made in gb
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The smoke

Some do ban FW models, not sure why, I suspect it's more to do with FW's patchy history than any current problems. There's one in London that does so because FW apparently doesn't fit their definition of "fun and fluffy".

I bought a Leviathan dreadnought for my Death Guard, and although it wasn't cheap, the model looks amazing, and was a pleasure to build and Nurglify. It also benefits from Death Guard legion traits, so slots easily into a list.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/04 10:45:13


 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle






Marin wrote:
ETC did not allowed FW before, don`t know now.


Must be jealous obvs...

Or maybe they don't know what envy is.



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Made in il
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






Not nececerallly, sometimes its just outside thier comfort zone and they can't be arsed to bother learning what FW is out there.

Given FW's less-than-stellar record of actually telling you what rules are in what book, its slightly understandable.
However, seeing how they didn't advance ANYHTING past the indices in 8th, its more of a lack of updates than having difficulty knowing what is the latest publication.

And honestly, the indices are horrid. lots of unplayable gak.
I mean, I love my Xiphons for chaos, and they are playable enough for small local turnies where we are not too powergamey, but my Tau Tetras, and Ralai...bha, can't even consider them for casual games.

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
Made in es
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets




Vigo. Spain.

In Spain FW is universally banned. A shame. I bought a Galatus Dreadnought for my Custodes and ended up selling it because I couldn't use it.
A lovely model but I don't buy things just for the looks, I like to use then in the table.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
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In My Lab

Ask your TO. It doesn't matter if 90% of tournaments allow FW if your tournament is in the 10%.

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 Galas wrote:
In Spain FW is universally banned. A shame. I bought a Galatus Dreadnought for my Custodes and ended up selling it because I couldn't use it.
A lovely model but I don't buy things just for the looks, I like to use then in the table.


What a terrible attitude for people to have.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Come up with a cogent argument that doesn't just attack your opponent but rather attacks the points he is making, and show some understanding of what those against the table are saying (it's not about 'Lol complaining about a random table in a game about dice'), or leave the damned thread.

 
   
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40k does have a huge model pool. Nothing wrong with cutting it down some. Id start with index-only, but i can see giving fw the heave ho.
   
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Banville wrote:
Hi there. I was just wondering about this, as most tourney lists posted don't tend to have any FW models. For instance, Leviathan dreads are pretty decent. As are Vultures and Strike Fighters. Yet, they don't seem to appear in tourney lists. Is that because most TOs frown on FW or is it simply that Codex stuff is more points efficient?


There's an attitude from some people that is quite anti-FW, but it's really quite outdated and unnecessary. Most Forgeworld stuff is not actually that good these days, which is the reason you don't see them even from hardcore tourney players much.

There are some decent units, but a lot of those are in armies that otherwise don't cut it. Leviathans are decent as you say, but Marines are a bit lackluster. Leviathans can't carry the list, and for they're cost they're really only decent which isn't enough - tournament lists need armies that are borderline broken, and FW doesn't really have anything that fits in that category. At least not these days.

FW is largely allowed and accepted now in my experience.
   
Made in gb
Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes




Martel732 wrote:
40k does have a huge model pool. Nothing wrong with cutting it down some. Id start with index-only, but i can see giving fw the heave ho.


Index entries I can see the perspective on, but tbh you may as well ban a codex as much as ban FW.
   
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Well, i think the game needs less power armor, and ba, da, and sw are adding nothing to meta except easy wins for xenos and castellans. Thats three gone.
   
Made in es
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Vigo. Spain.

 blood reaper wrote:
 Galas wrote:
In Spain FW is universally banned. A shame. I bought a Galatus Dreadnought for my Custodes and ended up selling it because I couldn't use it.
A lovely model but I don't buy things just for the looks, I like to use then in the table.


What a terrible attitude for people to have.

Yes, yes it is, but Spain has always been pretty special in relation to Warhammer. Is the land of the CAAC. As much as I say they are greately exaggerated by Peregrine, sadly theres a ton of toxic "casual" attitudes here.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




The prevalence of bs 2+ in fw dreads is a little weird.
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight




FW Custodes rules are written and balanced by GW now so banning FW with regards to them is like banning GW.

In the U.S.A. at least, FW seems pretty widely accepted
   
Made in ie
Regular Dakkanaut





Thanks for the replies guys. I was wondering as I'm doing up a very heavily converted army to be used as a mixed AdMech/Marine force with a Crusader as a Super Heavy Aux Detachment. Fluff wise it's a Long March remnant. But I know some people object, or at least wrinkle their nose, at Knights so I was hoping to convert up a counts as Leviathan to sub in. Just in case I enter a tourney, I was wondering whether cutting up Redemptors and Contemptors to make a Levi would be worth the effort.

The whole army is a modelling project as much as anything but I'd like it to be 'legal' to play in stores and tournaments.
   
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Banville wrote:
Thanks for the replies guys. I was wondering as I'm doing up a very heavily converted army to be used as a mixed AdMech/Marine force with a Crusader as a Super Heavy Aux Detachment. Fluff wise it's a Long March remnant. But I know some people object, or at least wrinkle their nose, at Knights so I was hoping to convert up a counts as Leviathan to sub in. Just in case I enter a tourney, I was wondering whether cutting up Redemptors and Contemptors to make a Levi would be worth the effort.

The whole army is a modelling project as much as anything but I'd like it to be 'legal' to play in stores and tournaments.


Knights are even MORE accepted than Forgeworld so he should be fine. LVO this year was like 1/3 Knight lists of some sort.
   
Made in ie
Regular Dakkanaut





On a related point: Centurions all Robbie-the-Robot-upped are too small to count as Kastelan Robots, right? I'll have to just run them as Centurions?
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




At this point aside from just being a stick in the mud. No reason to really ban forgeworld or really much of anything. We pay enough for this hobby in time and money and heart. Let people play the armies they want to, if you have issue with their list, just let them find other opponents.

In a tournament standard GW is doing fine making the OP lists from its own models let alone FW.

As for implication of removing index entries, heck with that. I'm not giving up my vendettas, rough riders, chaplain on bike, etc etc. If the game isn't about having fun anymore, what is it for ? Let the people have their fun with who shares that idea.

Tournaments will allow so degenerate stuff so I'd find them banning FW to be a bit pointless. Just imo of course.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I've never really understood the old school attitude of banning FW or the more recent one of purge the indexes. With a handful of exceptions neither range really has anything that is breaking the game open. I don't get the push to invalid peoples models if they enjoy using those models in a game.

Part of the appeal to me in 40k is that there are so many options and combos.
   
Made in gb
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets





Cardiff

Ahhh, this thread again.

For all my armies the FW options are overcosted and underperform, except for Leviathan Dreads that I don’t own. The ones I use I use because I love the models I’ve built. Outright banning FW is silly given the Codexes hold much stronger options.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
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HoundsofDemos wrote:
I've never really understood the old school attitude of banning FW or the more recent one of purge the indexes. With a handful of exceptions neither range really has anything that is breaking the game open. I don't get the push to invalid peoples models if they enjoy using those models in a game.

Part of the appeal to me in 40k is that there are so many options and combos.


Index at least has the point that the books are no longer on sale so players are on uneven grounds. Those who bought the books and have more powerful options available and those who didn't and so are stuck without them.

https://middleagedstrategybattlegamers.home.blog/2019/09/12/tneva82-minas-tirith-vs-isengard/ <- lotr painting blog

12 factions for Lord of The Rings
11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
5265 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights

 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




UK

tneva82 wrote:
HoundsofDemos wrote:
I've never really understood the old school attitude of banning FW or the more recent one of purge the indexes. With a handful of exceptions neither range really has anything that is breaking the game open. I don't get the push to invalid peoples models if they enjoy using those models in a game.

Part of the appeal to me in 40k is that there are so many options and combos.


Index at least has the point that the books are no longer on sale so players are on uneven grounds. Those who bought the books and have more powerful options available and those who didn't and so are stuck without them.


It's also a model aspect, modern GW is aiming for all models to have rules and all rules to have specific models. Which makes it very open and accessible and simple for new gamers. Those with conversions or older collections have access to a wider range of options.

Essentially its a similar argument to FW exclusion and inclusion - basically aiming to ensure that the playerbase for the event has as equal a pool of models to choose from as each other. It gets a little more complicated with FW though as they make several armies of their own.




In my view FW is like Malign Sorcery in AoS. It's basically an expansion to the core game that adds content ontop of the base content found in the codex. In the past this was a clear line and not everyone "used the expansion" content; however today there's generally been a view toward being more open to it. I suspect if it keeps going the way it is FW will eventually become a default automatic include at most places; though on the international scene the recent price hikes have done a lot of damage to that in terms of increasing the price disparity between GW and FW models. It also did not help in the least that GW's marketing on that failed hard by encouraging large numbers to get excited about lower postage costs only to whack on a huge price rise at the very same time that made it worse to order internationally than ever before. A move which has soured many to ordering from FW in the first place.

UK side the disparity has come down a lot over the years. A £100 greater demon from FW is now not much more than the £70-85 ones from GW central. Whereas in the past those GW greater demon models were in the £30-35 bracket or so.

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Bergen

In my experience it varies. I have seen tournaments that have allowed it, not allowed it, denyed induvidual units while including whole FW codexes.

There are a few reasons why FW is not allowe:

- The store that hosts the tournament has no oppertunaty to sell FW models and thus does not allow it. Or something similar.

- The forge world models are unbalanced in some ungodly fashion. This used to be a problem. (6th edition elysian drop tropps flyer (or something) you pay a minimum cost for something I can only hit on 6's that shoots 25 S5 AP1 hitting on 2 and re-rolling misses. Pass please)

However some updates into 8th edition and most forge world units are very balanced. The malanthrope for example is a 9 wound HQ choise for nids with synapse, and gives -1 to hit on close models. Quite good. But it is not something that nids can not just copy with the venomthropes. They can be targeted, but they are many and they cover a lager aria so both units are balanced.

- Lastly the reason FW can not be allowed is because they are very unfamiliar. Warhammer is not a game where information is available to players. True you can ask for it, but to many questions in and you will not have time to finish the game. Compare it with say Mtg. There all cards have the rule text written on them. But there are so much information that can not be seen on a space marine. Let alone Eldar Corsairs. Can you say what there rules are or what their dangerus units are?*

That being said. FW is very well balanced at the moment. Barring reason one and three there are no good reasons to not include FW currently. This is not the 'good old days'.


(*It is a trick question. They are horrible overpiced for their rules. And their rules are bad. But the example is good as you stil don't know what they do.)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/06 10:18:23


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